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Michael Moore
libra Posted: Sun Oct 19 03:32:29 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ok, so just a couple hours ago, i saw Michael Moore speak. It was so exciting. I really liked most of the things he had to say, and i think i like him more now, rather than less, which makes me happy. He talked a lot about the bush administration, the recent wars, American intelligence, and how there really are more liberals than conservatives, but the conservatives run things. He also talked about how things are changing politically, and that after a time when democrats had to move right to get elected, republicans are moving left to try to get elected(Schwarzenegger). He said, though, that the recall did prove one thing-republicans are now moving left, and that people dont like it when democrats move right and are 'wishy-washy' like davis. He apologized for our having to have arnold tho. It was all very exciting.

So, afterwards, we waited because he was signing books (Dude, Where's My Country) and we stood in line, and when i got to the front, my friends and i took a picture with him. He shook my hand, and here's what we said:

Me: Thank you
Michael Moore: No, Thank you
Me: I dont know how you can do this(about the book signing-he had been to berkeley that afternoon to speak to 10,000 people and sign books for them.)
MM: It is because i have the strength of ten women.

And then i walked away. It was so happy!
I had to tell you all this cause its just so exciting for me and you probably won't care, but thats ok!



 
Mesh Posted: Sun Oct 19 03:49:47 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
>I had to tell you all this cause its just so exciting for me and you probably won't care, but thats ok!


Oh, of course we care. i am glad you are excited and get to see something you really wanted to :)


*withholds bad comments about moore so to not spoil libras excitement*



 
libra Posted: Sun Oct 19 03:59:21 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>
>*withholds bad comments about moore so to not spoil libras excitement*
>

haha, i dont mind, there are good and bad things about everything...i dont mind you voicing your opinion...


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Oct 19 04:09:43 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>meshuggah said:
>>
>>*withholds bad comments about moore so to not spoil libras excitement*
>>
>
>haha, i dont mind, there are good and bad things about everything...i dont mind you voicing your opinion...


nah, hes an alright guy


 
addi Posted: Sun Oct 19 08:10:12 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Good for you, Libra!

Moore may have some questionable tactics, but he's a strong voice against the greed, stupidity, and injustice that's plaguing America now. We need to hear both sides of a situation and he's doing America a service, whether you like him or not, by standing up for the "little guy" that's getting overlooked. He's everything Rush, O'Reilly and all the other far right pundits aren't.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Oct 19 08:23:48 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Good for you, Libra!
>
>Moore may have some questionable tactics, but he's a strong voice against the greed, stupidity, and injustice that's plaguing America now. We need to hear both sides of a situation and he's doing America a service, whether you like him or not, by standing up for the "little guy" that's getting overlooked. He's everything Rush, O'Reilly and all the other far right pundits aren't.

o'reilly is far right ?
mmm, let' see, he is opposed to capital punishment, he is pro-choice, the man is more libertarian than anything.
he is definitely not far right. this is just one more example of when you present both sides of an issue rather than just the one you want to hear, then you must be a conservative.

michael moore is a marketing genius because he can make people believe his drool. he has no idea about how the world works, he a filmaker for god's sake. he certainly doesn't have any insight into what our government is doing no matter if it's right or wrong.
he produces a work of fiction (bowling for columbine) and calls it a documentary. he fervently espouses gun control to curb the crime rate and virtually every study done on the subject says that it doesn't work. there is not a single place on the planet where gun control is practiced where the violent crime rate has gone down, and in most places it actually went up.
he is a talented filmaker for sure, and should stick to what he knows.
"more liberals than conservatives, but the conservatives run things" ? hahaha
the democrats have had control of congress for the whole second half of the 20th century. that's the branch of govt that controls the money, in case you were wondering. the liberals were the ones that spent all the money on making our public school system the wonderful well oiled machine that it has become.


 
addi Posted: Sun Oct 19 10:16:17 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>o'reilly is far right ?
>mmm, let' see, he is opposed to capital punishment, he is pro-choice, the man is more libertarian than anything.
>he is definitely not far right. this is just one more example of when you present both sides of an issue rather than just the one you want to hear, then you must be a conservative.

My opinion of O'reilly isn't based on listening to liberals bash him. I listen to him daily on my drive home. My stress level goes up and I frequently cuss at my radio, but I listen to the man.
Fact: He hates liberals. All of them. He hates Fraken, Moore, Dean, the Clintons, New York Times, Nat'l Public Radio, in fact all media, except Fox News. I could go on and on. He differs from tradition conservatives on a few topics. He isn't a Libertarian. I heard him shut off a caller last month saying he WAS a libertarian at one time, but no longer considers himself one. On the whole he is much kinder to Republicans than to Democrats. So it isn't any great stretch for me to put him in that camp, hif.
>
>michael moore is a marketing genius because he can make people believe his drool. he has no idea about how the world works,

This is so over the top dismissive that it doesn't even deserve a rebuttal. It sounds like the kind of arguements I used to overhear when I was teaching middle schoolers.


 
addi Posted: Sun Oct 19 11:09:12 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  just read my last sentence. Too nasty. *slap myself in the face* I could have made my point without the insult. Sorry, hif.


 
libra Posted: Sun Oct 19 13:13:48 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>michael moore is a marketing genius because he can make people believe his drool. he has no idea about how the world works, he a filmaker for god's sake. he certainly doesn't have any insight into what our government is doing no matter if it's right or wrong.

shouldn't any person in america have an insight? shouldn't we all be able to find out what we want to find out about how it works. He finds out. Maybe because he's 'just a normal guy,' he has even more of a following than others. I wish you could have heard him, because he was very different from the way he was in bowling for columbine.

>he produces a work of fiction (bowling for columbine) and calls it a documentary. he fervently espouses gun control to curb the crime rate and virtually every study done on the subject says that it doesn't work. there is not a single place on the planet where gun control is practiced where the violent crime rate has gone down, and in most places it actually went up.

Actually, i think his message was deeper than this. he didnt just want gun control, he wanted an entire different view on things from americans. He knows that there are many factors that contribute to violence in america.

>he is a talented filmaker for sure, and should stick to what he knows.
>"more liberals than conservatives, but the conservatives run things" ? hahaha
>the democrats have had control of congress for the whole second half of the 20th century. that's the branch of govt that controls the money, in case you were wondering. the liberals were the ones that spent all the money on making our public school system the wonderful well oiled machine that it has become.

we spend only 2.9% of our budget on education...i dont call that 'all the money.' and hif, money isn't everything.


 
FN Posted: Sun Oct 19 15:39:53 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  How much money (in %) is america spending on 'defence'?


 
libra Posted: Sun Oct 19 18:51:43 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  16 percent, and Bushy is asking for an increase over the next six years...


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Oct 19 20:09:30 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>
>shouldn't any person in america have an insight? shouldn't we all be able to find out what we want to find out about how it works. He finds out. Maybe because he's 'just a normal guy,' he has even more of a following than others. I wish you could have heard him, because he was very different from the way he was in bowling for columbine.

that's just it, he doesn't "find out".
more often than not, he makes it up, or subscribes to the ideas of others who make it up.
>
>Actually, i think his message was deeper than this. he didnt just want gun control, he wanted an entire different view on things from americans. He knows that there are many factors that contribute to violence in america.

yeah, he wants us to subscribe to socialism.

>>he is a talented filmaker for sure, and should stick to what he knows.

>>"more liberals than conservatives, but the conservatives run things" ? hahaha
>>the democrats have had control of congress for the whole second half of the 20th century. that's the branch of govt that controls the money, in case you were wondering. the liberals were the ones that spent all the money on making our public school system the wonderful well oiled machine that it has become.
>
>we spend only 2.9% of our budget on education...i dont call that 'all the money.' and hif, money isn't everything.

money is what makes our public schools work the way they do. the teachers union is the most powerful union in the nation now and congress has been kowtowing to them for way too long now.
they keep building the public school beaurocracy bigger and bigger every year, while paying our teachers virtually nothing, because that's what unions do, they find a cash cow and drain it dry.
i don't think mr. moore is an evil man, i just think of him more as a huckster.
he has the ear and wallets of some of america's most impressionable people (our youth) and he is exploiting it.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Oct 19 20:11:33 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>just read my last sentence. Too nasty. *slap myself in the face* I could have made my point without the insult. Sorry, hif.

yeah, i wasn't quite that nasty to you when you failed to address the point in my "liberal press bias" thread, but just ramble on about what was right or wrong about our situation in the middle east. *slaps addie in the face*

no prob . . . all is forgiven. . . for now :)


 
libra Posted: Sun Oct 19 20:57:20 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>
>that's just it, he doesn't "find out".
>more often than not, he makes it up, or subscribes to the ideas of others who make it up.
>>

he's not making this up, his books are cited with sources like The New York Times, The Guardian, The Washington Post...and the list goes on...

>
>yeah, he wants us to subscribe to socialism.

he doesn't say that, just because he is comparing us to countries who have slightly socialized governments doesnt mean he wants to turn our country into a socialist place, but he's saying that there are certain things beyond gun control that can effect our level of violence.

>>
>money is what makes our public schools work the way they do. the teachers union is the most powerful union in the nation now and congress has been kowtowing to them for way too long now.
>they keep building the public school beaurocracy bigger and bigger every year, while paying our teachers virtually nothing, because that's what unions do, they find a cash cow and drain it dry.

There are plenty of schools that need more money, and 2.9 percent does not seem like enough and teachers need to be paid more. And Congress should listen to the teachers, where would these lawyers and politicians be if they didnt have a Mrs./Mr. so-and-so to teach them how to read, do math, spell? My dad works for a labor union, and he does a good job helping people to have what they deserve at work. Before there were unions people were used and exploited in insane ways.

>i don't think mr. moore is an evil man, i just think of him more as a huckster.
>he has the ear and wallets of some of america's most impressionable people (our youth) and he is exploiting it.

there were just as many middle aged to elderly people there as there were college students. He wouldn't have the effect he does if it was only students who listened to him.


 
addi Posted: Sun Oct 19 21:51:31 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>addison said:

>
>no prob . . . all is forgiven. . . for now :)
oh, good. I can sleep tonight.


and ya gotta quit putting such unquestionable faith your news sources. Teachers unions, and unions in general, have been declining in their numbers and influence over the past 3 decades (see reagan and air traffic controlers). There are certain pockets of the country, and only in certain "trades", where they still hold measurable influence. Teachers unions are essentially powerless in the south, hif. You outta know that being a fellow southerner. I know that because I was one.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Oct 20 06:44:20 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>addison said:
>
>>
>>no prob . . . all is forgiven. . . for now :)
>oh, good. I can sleep tonight.
>
>
>and ya gotta quit putting such unquestionable faith your news sources. Teachers unions, and unions in general, have been declining in their numbers and influence over the past 3 decades (see reagan and air traffic controlers). There are certain pockets of the country, and only in certain "trades", where they still hold measurable influence. Teachers unions are essentially powerless in the south, hif. You outta know that being a fellow southerner. I know that because I was one.

oh, i didn't mean that the unions have the power to make life better for the teachers, that's not what it's for. the teachers union has the most powerful lobby in washington and that translates into cash for union officials. that's what the union is for.
their one pet mantra is "hire more teachers, make smaller classes, we must have smaller classes". on the surface this sounds logical, but there is not a single study that suggests smaller classes improves education. of course there are other ways they get their cash as well, but that's their most popular one. in any event, being a former teacher, i'm sure you know what i'm talking about. our public schools are worse shape now than ever before.
we are giving diplomas to morons.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Oct 20 06:53:08 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>he's not making this up, his books are cited with sources like The New York Times, The Guardian, The Washington Post...and the list goes on...

are you aware of the credibility problems of the new york times ?

>he doesn't say that, just because he is comparing us to countries who have slightly socialized governments doesnt mean he wants to turn our country into a socialist place, but he's saying that there are certain things beyond gun control that can effect our level of violence.

of course he can't just say that, it would cause an uproar. and yes, certain things BEYOND gun control can effect our level of violence. gun control does not work ANYWHERE. it especially won't work here. anything that includes gun control as a measure is not acceptable.

>There are plenty of schools that need more money, and 2.9 percent does not seem like enough and teachers need to be paid more. And Congress should listen to the teachers, where would these lawyers and politicians be if they didnt have a Mrs./Mr. so-and-so to teach them how to read, do math, spell? My dad works for a labor union, and he does a good job helping people to have what they deserve at work. Before there were unions people were used and exploited in insane ways.

you are correct about the teachers.
but the people that fought and died to get the unions are spinning in their graves over what those unions have become. seen jimmy hoffa lately ?

>there were just as many middle aged to elderly people there as there were college students. He wouldn't have the effect he does if it was only students who listened to him.

well so far the only effect he's had is to sell a heckuva lot of books.


 
addi Posted: Mon Oct 20 07:17:09 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
> our public schools are worse shape now than ever before.
>we are giving diplomas to morons.

we are in agreement here. I think I may take a slightly different spin as to why though. I'd put you to sleep going into all the various factors that I believe contribute to the sorry state of our educational system (some school systems, not all). I'll just say that IMO the teachers unions are a small component in the mix. Teacher's salaries and screwed up cultural priorities figure in prominently along with other things.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Oct 20 09:20:44 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>ifihadahif said:
>> our public schools are worse shape now than ever before.
>>we are giving diplomas to morons.
>
>we are in agreement here. I think I may take a slightly different spin as to why though. I'd put you to sleep going into all the various factors that I believe contribute to the sorry state of our educational system (some school systems, not all). I'll just say that IMO the teachers unions are a small component in the mix. Teacher's salaries and screwed up cultural priorities figure in prominently along with other things.

What is your opinion on this article ?


Lies About School Performances
By Thomas Sowell


Many of the pronouncements coming from those who run our public schools range from fallacies to frauds. The new book "No Excuses" by Abigail and Stephan Thernstrom exposes a number of these self-serving lies.
You may have heard how hard it is to find enough teachers -- and therefore how necessary it is to raise salaries, in order to attract more people into this field. One example can demonstrate what is wrong with this picture, though there are innumerable other examples.

A young man who graduated summa cum laude from elite Williams College decided that he wanted to be a teacher. He sent letters and resumes to eight different school districts. Not one gave him even the courtesy of a reply.

Does that sound like there is a teacher's shortage? Moreover, any number of other highly qualified people have had the same experience.

The joker in the deal is that, no matter how highly qualified you are, your desire to become a teacher is not likely to get off the ground unless you have jumped through the bureaucratic hoops that keep people out of this field -- thereby protecting the jobs of unionized incompetents who are already in our schools.

The most important of these hoops is taking unbelievably dreary and stupid courses in education. Using these costly and time-consuming courses as a barrier, those in the education establishment "maintain low standards and high barriers at the same time," as Secretary of Education Rod Paige has aptly put it.

Factual studies show no correlation between taking these courses and successful teaching. Private schools are able to get good teachers by hiring people who never took any such courses. That is where our Williams graduate finally found a job.

The very people in the education establishment who maintain barriers to keep out teachers are the ones constantly telling us what a shortage of teachers there is -- and how more money is needed. This is a scam that has worked for years and will probably work for more years to come.

Then there are the "studies prove" scams. According to the education establishment, studies prove that Head Start helps poor children's educational performance, small classes lead to higher test scores, and busing black children to white schools produces educational benefits due to "diversity."

The quality of many of these studies is as unbelievably bad as the quality of courses in education.

Here is a common pattern: If you do 20 studies comparing the effect that A has on B, you may find that in 18 of those studies there is no correlation between A and B. In one of the other two, you may find that more A is followed by more B. And in the other, more A is followed by less B. Overall, still no correlation.

Depending on what the education establishment wants, they can seize upon the one study out of 20 that showed more A leading to more B and burst into the media with it. If the conclusion of that one study fits in with the media vision of the world, then it may be trumpeted across the land as "proof."

The Head Start program is a classic example. Anyone who expresses any skepticism about claims that Head Start is a great success will be denounced as someone who doesn't "care" about the low-income and minority children that this program supposedly helps. One of the great propaganda tricks is to change questions of fact into questions of motives.

The Thernstroms show what feeble facts there are behind this program that has cost billions of dollars. Look for them to be denounced for being heartless, if not racist. But don't expect advocates of Head Start to engage in a serious discussion of facts.

It is much the same story when it comes to claims that "studies prove" that small classes lead to better education. The Thernstroms show cases where class sizes as small as 12 led to no better results when the students were tested.

Ordering students bussed from their own neighborhoods for the sake of racial balance has similarly failed to produce the much-trumpeted educational benefits.

The time is long overdue to start looking at facts instead of listening to rhetoric.







 
mat_j Posted: Tue Oct 21 10:54:49 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Who cares how good michael Moore is at doing anything or not, lets just blindly follow him any way, it can't hurt any more than blindly folloing Bush, Who by the way snaeked into my room last night and made me drink toilet water.


 
addi Posted: Tue Oct 21 12:52:54 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mat_j said:
>Who cares how good michael Moore is at doing anything or not, lets just blindly follow him any way, it can't hurt any more than blindly folloing Bush, Who by the way snaeked into my room last night and made me drink toilet water.

Maybe it wasn't Bush. Maybe it was Moore with a Bush mask on. SCAREY!

If you're going to blindly follow someone at least try to not make it a fool :)




 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Oct 21 15:38:31 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>mat_j said:
>>Who cares how good michael Moore is at doing anything or not, lets just blindly follow him any way, it can't hurt any more than blindly folloing Bush, Who by the way snaeked into my room last night and made me drink toilet water.
>
>Maybe it wasn't Bush. Maybe it was Moore with a Bush mask on. SCAREY!
>
>If you're going to blindly follow someone at least try to not make it a fool :)

hey, one man's fool is another man's fetish, or something like that .. .


 
mat_j Posted: Wed Oct 22 14:47:18 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Amazingly it wasn't Bush but a Mandrill dressed as Bush with the blue bits on his face painted pink. He did however say vote republican as he inserted an ape finger into my nostril


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Oct 22 14:49:06 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mat_j said:
>Amazingly it wasn't Bush but a Mandrill dressed as Bush with the blue bits on his face painted pink. He did however say vote republican as he inserted an ape finger into my nostril

yeah, yeah, i know, same thing happened to me !


 
mat_j Posted: Thu Oct 23 17:43:11 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Well i'm going to do it, even if it kills me!


Vote Elephants!!!


 



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