Generation Terrorists » Forum
Sign up   |   Start new thread   |   Lost password?   |   Edit profile   |   Member List   |   myGT   |   Blog
Keyword
From
To
 

Iraq wanted to negotiate
iggy Posted: Fri Nov 7 03:14:53 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Iraq Said to Have Tried to Reach Last-Minute Deal to Avert War
Thu Nov 6, 8:54 AM ET Add Top Stories - The New York Times to My Yahoo!

By JAMES RISEN The New York Times

WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 As American soldiers massed on the Iraqi border in March and diplomats argued about war, an influential adviser to the Pentagon (news - web sites) received a secret message from a Lebanese-American businessman: Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) wanted to make a deal.

Iraqi officials, including the chief of the Iraqi Intelligence Service, had told the businessman that they wanted Washington to know that Iraq (news - web sites) no longer had weapons of mass destruction, and they offered to allow American troops and experts to conduct a search. The businessman said in an interview that the Iraqis also offered to hand over a man accused of being involved in the World Trade Center bombing in 1993 who was being held in Baghdad. At one point, he said, the Iraqis pledged to hold elections.


The messages from Baghdad, first relayed in February to an analyst in the office of Douglas J. Feith, the under secretary of defense for policy and planning, were part of an attempt by Iraqi intelligence officers to open last-ditch negotiations with the Bush administration through a clandestine communications channel, according to people involved.


The efforts were portrayed by Iraqi officials as having the approval of President Saddam Hussein, according to interviews and documents.


The overtures, after a decade of evasions and deceptions by Iraq, were ultimately rebuffed. But the messages raised enough interest that in early March, Richard N. Perle, an influential adviser to top Pentagon officials, met in London with the Lebanese-American businessman, Imad Hage.


According to both men, Mr. Hage laid out the Iraqis' position to Mr. Perle, and he pressed the Iraqi request for a direct meeting with Mr. Perle or another representative of the United States.


"I was dubious that this would work," said Mr. Perle, widely recognized as an intellectual architect of the Bush administration's hawkish policy toward Iraq, "but I agreed to talk to people in Washington."


Mr. Perle said he sought authorization from C.I.A. officials to meet with the Iraqis, but the officials told him they did not want to pursue this channel, and they indicated they had already engaged in separate contacts with Baghdad. Mr. Perle said, "The message was, `Tell them that we will see them in Baghdad.' "


A senior United States intelligence official said this was one of several contacts with Iraqis or with people who said they were trying to broker meetings on their behalf. "These signals came via a broad range of foreign intelligence services, other governments, third parties, charlatans and independent actors," said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "Every lead that was at all plausible, and some that weren't, were followed up."


There were a variety of efforts, both public and discreet, to avert a war in Iraq, but Mr. Hage's back channel appears to have been a final attempt by Mr. Hussein's government to reach American officials.


In interviews in Beirut, Mr. Hage said the Iraqis appeared intimidated by the American military threat. "The Iraqis were finally taking it seriously," he said, "and they wanted to talk, and they offered things they never would have offered if the build-up hadn't occurred."


Mr. Perle said he found it "puzzling" that the Iraqis would have used such complicated contacts to communicate "a quite astonishing proposal" to the administration.


But former American intelligence officers with extensive experience in the Middle East say many Arab leaders have traditionally placed a high value on secret communications, though such informal arrangements are sometimes considered suspect in Washington.


The activity in this back channel, detailed in interviews and in documents obtained by The New York Times, appears to show an increasingly frantic Iraqi regime trying to find room to maneuver as the enemy closes in. It also provides a rare glimpse into a subterranean world of international networking.


The key link in the network was Imad Hage, who has spent much of his life straddling two worlds. Mr. Hage, a Maronite Christian who was born in Beirut in 1956, fled Lebanon in 1976 after the civil war began there. He ended up in the United States, where he went to college and became a citizen.


Living in suburban Washington, Mr. Hage started an insurance company, American Underwriters Group, and became involved in Lebanese-American political circles. In the late 1990's, he moved his family and his company to Lebanon.


Serendipity brought him important contacts in the Arab world and in America. An influential Lebanese Muslim he met while handling an insurance claim introduced him to Mohammed Nassif, a senior Syrian intelligence official and a close aide to President Bashar al-Assad.


On trips back to Washington last year, Mr. Hage befriended a fellow Lebanese-American, Michael Maloof, who was working in the Pentagon as an analyst in an intelligence unit set up by Mr. Feith to look for ties between terrorist groups like Al Qaeda and countries like Iraq. Mr. Maloof has ties to many leading conservatives in Washington, having worked for Mr. Perle at the Pentagon during the Reagan administration.

In January 2003, as American pressure was building for a face-off with Iraq, Mr. Hage's two worlds intersected.

On a trip to Damascus, he said, Mr. Nassif told him about Syria's frustrations in communicating with American officials. On a trip to the United States later that month, Mr. Hage said, Mr. Maloof arranged for him to deliver that message personally to Mr. Perle and to Jaymie Durnan, then a top aide to the deputy defense secretary, Paul D. Wolfowitz. Pentagon officials confirmed that the meetings occurred.

Mr. Perle, a member of the Defense Policy Board at the Pentagon, is known in foreign capitals as an influential adviser to top administration officials.

After Mr. Hage told his contacts in Beirut and Damascus about meeting Mr. Perle, Mr. Hage's influential Lebanese Muslim friend asked Mr. Hage to meet a senior Iraqi official eager to talk to the Americans. Mr. Hage cautiously agreed.

In February, as the United States was gearing up its campaign for a Security Council resolution authorizing force against Iraq, Hassan al-Obeidi, chief of foreign operations of the Iraqi Intelligence Service, arrived in Mr. Hage's Beirut office.

But within minutes, Mr. Hage said, Mr. Obeidi collapsed, and a doctor was called to treat him. "He came to my office, sat down, and in five minutes fell ill," recalled Mr. Hage. "He looked like a man under enormous stress."

After being treated, Mr. Obeidi explained that the Iraqis wanted to cooperate with the Americans and could not understand why the Americans were focused on Iraq rather than on countries, like Iran, that have long supported terrorists, Mr. Hage said. The Iraqi seemed desperate, Mr. Hage said, "like someone who feared for his own safety, although he tried to hide it."

Mr. Obeidi told Mr. Hage that Iraq would make deals to avoid war, including helping in the Mideast peace process. "He said, if this is about oil, we will talk about U.S. oil concessions," Mr. Hage recalled. "If it is about the peace process, then we can talk. If this is about weapons of mass destruction, let the Americans send over their people. There are no weapons of mass destruction."

Mr. Obeidi said the "Americans could send 2,000 F.B.I. agents to look wherever they wanted," Mr. Hage recalled.

He said that when he told Mr. Obeidi that the United States seemed adamant that Saddam Hussein give up power, Mr. Obeidi bristled, saying that would be capitulation. But later, Mr. Hage recounted, Mr. Obeidi said Iraq could agree to hold elections within the next two years.

Mr. Hage said Mr. Obeidi made it clear that he wanted to get his message to Washington, so Mr. Hage contacted Mr. Maloof in Washington. "Everything I was hearing, I was telling Mike," he said.

A few days later, Mr. Hage said, he met Mr. Obeidi at a hotel in downtown Beirut, and Mr. Obeidi repeated the offers of concessions, which he said came from the highest levels of the Iraqi government. Mr. Obeidi seemed even more depressed. "The U.S. buildup was clearly getting to them," Mr. Hage said.

A week later, Mr. Hage said, he agreed to hold further meetings in Baghdad. When he arrived, he was driven to a large, well-guarded compound, where he was met by a gray-haired man in a military uniform. It was Tahir Jalil Habbush, the director of the Iraqi Intelligence Service, who is No. 16 on the United States list of most wanted Iraqi leaders. Mr. Hage said Mr. Habbush asked him if it was true that he knew Mr. Perle. "Have you met him?"

Mr. Hage said Mr. Habbush began to vent his frustration over what the Americans really wanted. He said that to demonstrate the Iraqis' willingness to help fight terrorism, Mr. Habbush offered to hand over Abdul Rahman Yasin, who has been indicted in United States in connection with the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. Mr. Yasin fled to Iraq after the bombing, and the United States put up a $25 million reward for his capture.

Mr. Hage said Mr. Habbush offered to turn him over to Mr. Hage, but Mr. Hage said he would pass on the message that Mr. Yasin was available.

Mr. Hage said Mr. Habbush also insisted that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction and added, "Let your friends send in people and we will open everything to them."

Mr. Hage said he asked Mr. Habbush, "Why don't you tell this to the Bush administration?" He said Mr. Habbush replied cryptically, "We have talks with people."

Mr. Hage said he later learned that one contact was in Rome between the C.I.A. and representatives of the Iraqi intelligence service. American officials confirm that the meeting took place, but say that the Iraqi representative was not a current intelligence official and that the meeting was not productive.

In addition, there was an attempt to set up a meeting in Morocco between Mr. Habbush and United States officials, but it never took place, according to American officials.

On Feb. 19, Mr. Hage faxed a three-page report on his trip to Baghdad to Mr. Maloof in Washington. The Iraqis, he wrote, "understand the days of manipulating the United States are over." He said top Iraqi officials, including Mr. Habbush and Tariq Aziz, the deputy prime minister, wanted to meet with American officials.

The report also listed five areas of concessions the Iraqis said they would make to avoid a war, including cooperation in fighting terrorism and "full support for any U.S. plan" in the Arab-Israeli peace process. In addition, the report said that "the U.S. will be given first priority as it relates to Iraq oil, mining rights," and that Iraq would cooperate with United States strategic interests in the region. Finally, under the heading "Disarmament," the report said, "Direct U.S. involvement on the ground in disarming Iraq."

Mr. Hage's messages touched off a brief flurry of communications within the Pentagon, according to interviews and copies of e-mail messages obtained by The Times.

In an e-mail on Feb. 21 to Mr. Durnan, the Wolfowitz aide, Mr. Maloof wrote that Mr. Perle "is willing to meet with Hage and the Iraqis if it has clearance from the building," meaning the Pentagon.

In an e-mail response, Mr. Durnan said: "Mike, working this. Keep this close hold." In a separate e-mail to two Pentagon officials, Mr. Durnan asked for background information about Mr. Hage. "There is some interesting stuff happening overseas and I need to know who and what he is," he wrote in one e-mail.

Mr. Hage had impressive contacts, but there was one blemish on his record: In January he had been briefly detained by the F.B.I. at Dulles Airport in Washington when a handgun was found in his checked luggage. He said he did not believe it was a security violation because it was not in his carry-on luggage, and the authorities allowed him to leave after a few hours.

Senior Pentagon officials said Mr. Durnan relayed messages he received from Mr. Maloof to the appropriate officials at the Pentagon, but they said that Mr. Durnan never discussed the Hage channel to the Iraqis with Mr. Wolfowitz. (In May, Mr. Maloof, who has lost his security clearances, was placed on paid administrative leave by the Pentagon, for reasons unrelated to the contacts with Mr. Hage.)

Mr. Hage continued to hear from the Iraqis and passed on their urgency about meeting Mr. Perle or another representative of the United States. In one memo sent to other Pentagon officials in early March, Mr. Maloof wrote: "Hage quoted Dr. Obeidi as saying this is the last window or channel through which this message has gone to the United States. Hage characterized the tone of Dr. Obeidi as begging."

Working through Mr. Maloof, Mr. Hage finally arranged to meet with Mr. Perle in London in early March. The two met in an office in Knightsbridge for about two hours to discuss the Iraqi proposals, the men said. Mr. Hage told Mr. Perle that the Iraqis wanted to meet with him or someone from the administration.

Mr. Perle said he subsequently contacted a C.I.A. official to ask if he should meet with the Iraqis. "The answer came back that they weren't interested in pursuing it," Mr. Perle said in an interview, "and I was given the impression that there had already been contacts."

Mr. Perle now plays down the importance of his contact with Mr. Hage. He said he found it difficult to believe that Mr. Hussein would make serious proposals through such a channel. "There were so many other ways to communicate," he said. "There were any number of governments involved in the end game, the Russians, French, Saudis."

Nonetheless, Mr. Hage continued to deliver messages from the Iraqis to Mr. Maloof.

In one note to Mr. Perle in mid-March, Mr. Maloof relayed a message from Mr. Hage that Mr. Obeidi and Mr. Habbush "were prepared to meet with you in Beirut, and as soon as possible, concerning `unconditional terms.' " The message from Mr. Hage said, "Such a meeting has Saddam Hussein's clearance."

No meetings took place, and the invasion began on March 20. Mr. Hage wonders what might have happened if the Americans had pursued the back channel to Baghdad.

"At least they could have talked to them," he said.





 
addi Posted: Fri Nov 7 07:23:58 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Thanks for posting this. Interesting to think about what might have been. I can't vouch for how accurate the story is, but if this was true the decision by the administration to not follow it through doesn't surprise me. I've said it before and I still believe Bush and company were dead set on invading Iraq, no matter what other options (secret or open) he may have had.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Nov 7 09:39:20 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Thanks for posting this. Interesting to think about what might have been. I can't vouch for how accurate the story is, but if this was true the decision by the administration to not follow it through doesn't surprise me. I've said it before and I still believe Bush and company were dead set on invading Iraq, no matter what other options (secret or open) he may have had.

what might have been ?
what might have been ?
all you have to do to see what might have been is look at saddam's behavior for the last 14 yrs.
how many times were the inspectors invited to search with "no conditions placed on them" only to find various places off limits when they arrived.
will you suggest that, based on the mass graves and horrors we found and are still finding that we did the wrong thing ?


 
addi Posted: Fri Nov 7 10:29:30 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  you confuse and twist my words hif (a frequent tactic by republicans when logic fails, hugs and kisses!) Over the months of posts on this topic I have never once said anything close to condoning saddams behavior. He did things so bad I can't even put them into words. My comments in this thread (and on past posts) have been to question Bush's tactics, truthfulness, timing, strategy, shortsightedness, lies, etc... Do not confuse the two. Questioning Bush does not equate to wishing Saddam would have ruled over Iraq forever. Anyone that believes Bush's course of action over the last year was the ONLY course of action we could have possibly taken is buying the company press hook, line, and sinker.


 
FN Posted: Fri Nov 7 10:53:06 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Since when is america automaticly 'the good guy' and since when does america have the unquestioned right to be the consciousness of the world?

Being an ameerican will automaticly get you to heaven as well I'm sure, unless you're a punk ass non-patriotic communist eurolover who doesn't agree with eveything the almighty goveernment decides to do.


 
libra Posted: Fri Nov 7 13:03:29 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Being an ameerican will automaticly get you to heaven as well I'm sure, unless you're a punk ass non-patriotic communist eurolover who doesn't agree with eveything the almighty goveernment decides to do.

uh oh. i think i'm going to hell...but i knew that already.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Nov 7 13:42:19 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>you confuse and twist my words hif (a frequent tactic by republicans when logic fails, hugs and kisses!) Over the months of posts on this topic I have never once said anything close to condoning saddams behavior. He did things so bad I can't even put them into words. My comments in this thread (and on past posts) have been to question Bush's tactics, truthfulness, timing, strategy, shortsightedness, lies, etc... Do not confuse the two. Questioning Bush does not equate to wishing Saddam would have ruled over Iraq forever. Anyone that believes Bush's course of action over the last year was the ONLY course of action we could have possibly taken is buying the company press hook, line, and sinker.

well after 14yrs and 15 UN resolutions that were broken with impunity and no apparent capitulation by saddam, just what would you have done ? more diplomacy ? hahahahahaha
sometimes force is the only way to solve a problem and when someone becomes a threat to your security, it is justified.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Nov 7 13:56:46 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Since when is america automaticly 'the good guy' and since when does america have the unquestioned right to be the consciousness of the world?

that's typical anti-american western eurothink. actually we don't considers ourselves the savior of the world, but whenever we do take action, either because we are asked to, or because we are threatened, this kind of crap is spouted from the mouths of ignorance.
the other side of this coin is that when we don't act, it is because we are selfishly looking out for our own interests or we only have "interests" and not friends.
maybe when the panzers were in charge of western europe, we should have just said, " let the inspectors stay another year or two, we don't need to send in any troops".
>
>Being an ameerican will automaticly get you to heaven as well I'm sure, unless you're a punk ass non-patriotic communist eurolover who doesn't agree with eveything the almighty goveernment decides to do.
and you claim not to be anti-american ?
you're so full of shit, i'll bet your eyes are brown !


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Nov 7 14:53:16 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>you confuse and twist my words hif (a frequent tactic by republicans when logic fails, hugs and kisses!) Over the months of posts on this topic I have never once said anything close to condoning saddams behavior. He did things so bad I can't even put them into words. My comments in this thread (and on past posts) have been to question Bush's tactics, truthfulness, timing, strategy, shortsightedness, lies, etc... Do not confuse the two. Questioning Bush does not equate to wishing Saddam would have ruled over Iraq forever. Anyone that believes Bush's course of action over the last year was the ONLY course of action we could have possibly taken is buying the company press hook, line, and sinker.

i would be most interested in the lies you speak of, and what evidence you have to back them up.


 
FN Posted: Fri Nov 7 16:50:03 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Why do WWI and WWII always have to be dragged into this?

Let it go for fuck's sake.

It's not like america didn't get anything out of it, as always.


Where do you think that the whole of europe had to get their loans from to rebuilt the countries?

You think that the plan after to help rebuilt europe was done out of charity?

I think you're the one who's full of shit man.

Who do you think got the intrest of that all?


And yes my eyes are brown (well, green on the ouside, then yellow, and brown in the middle), not übermensch enough for ya?

By the way, I don't know if you're aware about this but brown eyes are geneticly superior to other colours. You always have the colour of eyes of one of your (biological ofcourse lol) parents, and when one of them has brown eyes there's an over 90% chance that you'll have brown eyes as well.


 
FN Posted: Fri Nov 7 16:57:34 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Christophe said:
>>Since when is america automaticly 'the good guy' and since when does america have the unquestioned right to be the consciousness of the world?
>
>that's typical anti-american western eurothink. actually we don't considers ourselves the savior of the world, but whenever we do take action, either because we are asked to, or because we are threatened, this kind of crap is spouted from the mouths of ignorance.
>the other side of this coin is that when we don't act, it is because we are selfishly looking out for our own interests or we only have "interests" and not friends.
>maybe when the panzers were in charge of western europe, we should have just said, " let the inspectors stay another year or two, we don't need to send in any troops".
>>
>>Being an ameerican will automaticly get you to heaven as well I'm sure, unless you're a punk ass non-patriotic communist eurolover who doesn't agree with eveything the almighty goveernment decides to do.
>and you claim not to be anti-american ?
>you're so full of shit, i'll bet your eyes are brown !



Where do I claim not to be anti-american? It's true though; I'm anti-american government.

And saddam wasn't invading any country at the moment was he.

Also, a lot of the mass graves are dated from before and right after the first gulf war.

And yes, if you think you can police the world you do consider yourself as 'the good guy'.

It is also true that america doesn't have any friends, it only has interests (just like any other country as well).

Wake up and smell the shit man, seriously.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Nov 7 17:55:53 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Why do WWI and WWII always have to be dragged into this?

because if you forget the lessons learned there, you will have to learn them all over again the hard way.
>
>Let it go for fuck's sake.
>
>It's not like america didn't get anything out of it, as always.

if you learned your history, america had to be dragged into the war, we didn't go into looking to gain anything.
>
>
>Where do you think that the whole of europe had to get their loans from to rebuilt the countries?
>
>You think that the plan after to help rebuilt europe was done out of charity?
>
>I think you're the one who's full of shit man.
>
>Who do you think got the intrest of that all?

and how many of the loans were eventually forgiven ?
>
>
>And yes my eyes are brown (well, green on the ouside, then yellow, and brown in the middle), not übermensch enough for ya?
>
>By the way, I don't know if you're aware about this but brown eyes are geneticly superior to other colours. You always have the colour of eyes of one of your (biological ofcourse lol) parents, and when one of them has brown eyes there's an over 90% chance that you'll have brown eyes as well.

my eyes happen to be hazel and it's a well known fact that people with hazel eyes are much more intelligent than those with brown eyes. LOL


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Nov 7 18:01:13 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Christophe said:
>>>Since when is america automaticly 'the good guy' and since when does america have the unquestioned right to be the consciousness of the world?
>>
>>that's typical anti-american western eurothink. actually we don't considers ourselves the savior of the world, but whenever we do take action, either because we are asked to, or because we are threatened, this kind of crap is spouted from the mouths of ignorance.
>>the other side of this coin is that when we don't act, it is because we are selfishly looking out for our own interests or we only have "interests" and not friends.
>>maybe when the panzers were in charge of western europe, we should have just said, " let the inspectors stay another year or two, we don't need to send in any troops".
>>>
>>>Being an ameerican will automaticly get you to heaven as well I'm sure, unless you're a punk ass non-patriotic communist eurolover who doesn't agree with eveything the almighty goveernment decides to do.
>>and you claim not to be anti-american ?
>>you're so full of shit, i'll bet your eyes are brown !
>
>
>
>Where do I claim not to be anti-american? It's true though; I'm anti-american government.

you have claimed not to be anti-american in some long ago post. i believe you said you were not anti-american but were against their policies or something to that effect.
>
>And saddam wasn't invading any country at the moment was he.

note the term "pre-emptive"
>
>Also, a lot of the mass graves are dated from before and right after the first gulf war.

and that means what ?
>
>And yes, if you think you can police the world you do consider yourself as 'the good guy'.

and we don't go anywhere where we aren't asked to go unless we are threatened.
>
>It is also true that america doesn't have any friends, it only has interests (just like any other country as well).

you might just check with the diplomatic offices in taiwan, the phillipines, and singapore to name a few.
there are some 60 thousand american graves in france alone that would suggest a friendship as well, but mr chirac sure put that one in the shitter.

i would ask you as i did addison: would you suggest that we did a bad thing by removing saddam from power ?
>Wake up and smell the shit man, seriously.


 
libra Posted: Fri Nov 7 18:57:02 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>And yes my eyes are brown (well, green on the ouside, then yellow, and brown in the middle), not übermensch enough for ya?
>
>By the way, I don't know if you're aware about this but brown eyes are geneticly superior to other colours. You always have the colour of eyes of one of your (biological ofcourse lol) parents, and when one of them has brown eyes there's an over 90% chance that you'll have brown eyes as well.

I have green eyes and my mom has blue eyes, my dad has brown eyes...so i dont think that's true...I think eye color is a bit more complecated than other genetic inheritances like tongue rolling...


 
Mesh Posted: Fri Nov 7 19:44:49 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
>my eyes happen to be hazel and it's a well known fact that people with hazel eyes are much more intelligent than those with brown eyes. LOL

I have blus eyes, does that mean anything?


 
sweet p Posted: Fri Nov 7 20:05:03 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Well...I CAN finally use some grade 11 biology crap that was forced into my head over and over...
The colour of your eyes depends on recessive and dominant alleles and how many of each are expressed.
It is a fact that the coding for brown eyes is dominant to that of blue. Dominant means that a baby only needs one of the two eye colour genes [you get 2 copies of each gene...1 from mum and 1 from dad]to be brown to have a baby with brown eyes.

In the case of a recessive gene such that is the gene for let's say blue eyes, one blue eye gene is not enough to give the offspring blue eyes.

: )


 
addi Posted: Fri Nov 7 21:09:36 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  normally I have hazel eyes ( don't ask me how, I don't even know her), but last sunday after a night of too much drinking they turned red. I wonder what that says about my brain.


 
zander83 Posted: Fri Nov 7 21:50:19 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I do remember from bio that green eyes was a mutation.

I'm not sure i want to get involved in this subject. The rhetoric is getting old very quickly. We all know the arguments

From republicans: Liberals are stupid hippies living in the wrong time, anti-american, they have no pride in there country, no morals since they're not christian, no real arguments cuz anything they refer too is actually media manipulation. Just for the hell of it theres probably a zionist conspiracy in there, or a commie one, or an arab, basically it's anyones fault but ours.

Liberals: Republicans are idiots whose knowledge of the exterior world is limited to them and us, republicans base there arguments on feelings and religion etc.

Its a bit redundant... Now see i did get involved hehehehe

And theres nothing wrong with incest right hif... sorry had to

hahahahaha...


 
Savvode Posted: Sat Nov 8 04:14:32 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Duhhh.......is 'ifi' like the voice of Mr. Bush's conscience or something.

Boy, this guy really takes his responsibility of being an American citizen seriously. LOL

But I seriously detest this anti-americanism out here. Look at the number of chemical and nuclear weapons dug out by the American troops. It still stands at '0', but don't you guys laugh at it, that amazing number is soon gona increase.

And, look at the ungrateful Jessica Lynch. The US Army saves her sorry ass and she goes ahead and states that the American government exaggerated the whole episode and her heroism as well. What a liar of a woman, what does she think that such a fair and democratic government needs to lie for cheap propoganda.

Anyways another 16 US soldiers died yesterday. A Black Hawke helicopter was shot down. Sounds like Vietnam all over again, only this time the scenenery's missing.
Death has no forest to slip into, but uncovers itself from the vast sands and hides in the rays of the sorching sun.


 
FN Posted: Sat Nov 8 06:01:13 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>Christophe said:
>
>>And yes my eyes are brown (well, green on the ouside, then yellow, and brown in the middle), not übermensch enough for ya?
>>
>>By the way, I don't know if you're aware about this but brown eyes are geneticly superior to other colours. You always have the colour of eyes of one of your (biological ofcourse lol) parents, and when one of them has brown eyes there's an over 90% chance that you'll have brown eyes as well.
>
>I have green eyes and my mom has blue eyes, my dad has brown eyes...so i dont think that's true...I think eye color is a bit more complecated than other genetic inheritances like tongue rolling...


Also note that on average 3 out of 10 children are from a different biological father than the one who thinks he is theirs and who is raising them.


 
Mesh Posted: Sat Nov 8 06:05:40 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>libra said:
>>Christophe said:
>>
>>>And yes my eyes are brown (well, green on the ouside, then yellow, and brown in the middle), not übermensch enough for ya?
>>>
>>>By the way, I don't know if you're aware about this but brown eyes are geneticly superior to other colours. You always have the colour of eyes of one of your (biological ofcourse lol) parents, and when one of them has brown eyes there's an over 90% chance that you'll have brown eyes as well.
>>
>>I have green eyes and my mom has blue eyes, my dad has brown eyes...so i dont think that's true...I think eye color is a bit more complecated than other genetic inheritances like tongue rolling...
>
>
>Also note that on average 3 out of 10 children are from a different biological father than the one who thinks he is theirs and who is raising them

three out of ten, jeebus


 
libra Posted: Sat Nov 8 06:24:24 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>libra said:
>>Christophe said:
>>
>>>And yes my eyes are brown (well, green on the ouside, then yellow, and brown in the middle), not übermensch enough for ya?
>>>
>>>By the way, I don't know if you're aware about this but brown eyes are geneticly superior to other colours. You always have the colour of eyes of one of your (biological ofcourse lol) parents, and when one of them has brown eyes there's an over 90% chance that you'll have brown eyes as well.
>>
>>I have green eyes and my mom has blue eyes, my dad has brown eyes...so i dont think that's true...I think eye color is a bit more complecated than other genetic inheritances like tongue rolling...
>
>
>Also note that on average 3 out of 10 children are from a different biological father than the one who thinks he is theirs and who is raising them.

hey! no, i know my dad is my dad...i look a lot like his sisters, etc...


 
addi Posted: Sat Nov 8 06:40:16 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>
>
>Also note that on average 3 out of 10 children are from a different biological father than the one who thinks he is theirs and who is raising them.

Libra.... I'm your father (Star Wars, episode IX). It's probably a good thing you don't have a crush on me.


 
FN Posted: Sat Nov 8 06:40:33 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Christophe said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>>Christophe said:
>>>>Since when is america automaticly 'the good guy' and since when does america have the unquestioned right to be the consciousness of the world?
>>>
>>>that's typical anti-american western eurothink. actually we don't considers ourselves the savior of the world, but whenever we do take action, either because we are asked to, or because we are threatened, this kind of crap is spouted from the mouths of ignorance.
>>>the other side of this coin is that when we don't act, it is because we are selfishly looking out for our own interests or we only have "interests" and not friends.
>>>maybe when the panzers were in charge of western europe, we should have just said, " let the inspectors stay another year or two, we don't need to send in any troops".
>>>>
>>>>Being an ameerican will automaticly get you to heaven as well I'm sure, unless you're a punk ass non-patriotic communist eurolover who doesn't agree with eveything the almighty goveernment decides to do.
>>>and you claim not to be anti-american ?
>>>you're so full of shit, i'll bet your eyes are brown !
>>
>>
>>
>>Where do I claim not to be anti-american? It's true though; I'm anti-american government.
>
>you have claimed not to be anti-american in some long ago post. i believe you said you were not anti-american but were against their policies or something to that effect.

I said I'm ani-american government, not anti-american.


>>
>>And saddam wasn't invading any country at the moment was he.
>
>note the term "pre-emptive"

Note the term 'doing what 'we' want'
Maybe the whole world should launch a pre-emptive attack on the US because they might well become the next one on the list if they have something of value in their country; and the US has nukes as well, so it has to be taken out.

Oh no, I forgot, the US can have nukes as it has a very peaceful 'history'.


>>
>>Also, a lot of the mass graves are dated from before and right after the first gulf war.
>
>and that means what ?

That means that the US should have taken hussein out after the first gulf war, the fact that there are so many mass graves is partly 'your' own fault.

>>
>>And yes, if you think you can police the world you do consider yourself as 'the good guy'.
>
>and we don't go anywhere where we aren't asked to go unless we are threatened.

You weren't threatened by Iraq, you were threatened by saudi's who flew into the towers.

>>
>>It is also true that america doesn't have any friends, it only has interests (just like any other country as well).
>
>you might just check with the diplomatic offices in taiwan, the phillipines, and singapore to name a few.

Yes, I'll call my local friends there and ask them how they feel.

In politics charity doesn't exist. Never. America isn't an exception, get over it.

>there are some 60 thousand american graves in france alone that would suggest a friendship as well, but mr chirac sure put that one in the shitter.
>
>i would ask you as i did addison: would you suggest that we did a bad thing by removing saddam from power ?

I never underestimated the sacrifice of the people who gave their lives there, and also america was 'dragged into it' by the sinking of the Lusitania in 1917, but wasn the war way before that by supporting europe with weapons and such under the cover of 'neutral passenger ships'.

In the 2nd one america knew very well that if europe would fall it would end up a target sooner or later as well.

Also, the people then and the people know, both americans and europeans, are not the same.

Although I appreciate the sacrifice of the soldiers who fell here, I don't feel like I owe america anything and that doesn't make me obliged to agree with anything america says either.

>>Wake up and smell the shit man, seriously.


 
FN Posted: Sat Nov 8 06:43:23 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>Christophe said:
>>libra said:
>>>Christophe said:
>>>
>>>>And yes my eyes are brown (well, green on the ouside, then yellow, and brown in the middle), not übermensch enough for ya?
>>>>
>>>>By the way, I don't know if you're aware about this but brown eyes are geneticly superior to other colours. You always have the colour of eyes of one of your (biological ofcourse lol) parents, and when one of them has brown eyes there's an over 90% chance that you'll have brown eyes as well.
>>>
>>>I have green eyes and my mom has blue eyes, my dad has brown eyes...so i dont think that's true...I think eye color is a bit more complecated than other genetic inheritances like tongue rolling...
>>
>>
>>Also note that on average 3 out of 10 children are from a different biological father than the one who thinks he is theirs and who is raising them.
>
>hey! no, i know my dad is my dad...i look a lot like his sisters, etc...


Yes, and the people who say that are probably from your mother's side of the family.


It's also a proven fact that when a child is born the mother's side of the family tends to see the 'similarities' a lot quicker and sees more of them as well in order to convince the father that it's his child.


 
addi Posted: Sat Nov 8 07:01:02 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  zander83 said:

>
>From republicans: Liberals are stupid hippies living in the wrong time, anti-american, they have no pride in there country, no morals since they're not christian, no real arguments cuz anything they refer too is actually media manipulation. Just for the hell of it theres probably a zionist conspiracy in there, or a commie one, or an arab, basically it's anyones fault but ours.

Nice summation, zander. You forgot a few things though.

From republicans: The white, male, handsome God is on America's side.

Muslims are all heathens that would eat your baby if they could.
If we waiver on our support for Israel an inch God will condemn us to hell since they are His chosen and can do no wrong.
Being single issued is fine. If you're pro-life and say God bless america at the end of every speech you're okay.
If you question any decision made by Bush you're not a patriot.
Guns NEVER kill anyone. People do. It's that simple. "Out of my cold, dead hands!"
It's a greater sin to have sex in the oval office than it is to send soldiers to their deaths for dubious reasons.

"Environment? We don't need no stinkin' environment!"


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Nov 8 07:57:42 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>zander83 said:
>
>>
>>From republicans: Liberals are stupid hippies living in the wrong time, anti-american, they have no pride in there country, no morals since they're not christian, no real arguments cuz anything they refer too is actually media manipulation. Just for the hell of it theres probably a zionist conspiracy in there, or a commie one, or an arab, basically it's anyones fault but ours.
>
>Nice summation, zander. You forgot a few things though.
>
>From republicans: The white, male, handsome God is on America's side.
>
>Muslims are all heathens that would eat your baby if they could.
>If we waiver on our support for Israel an inch God will condemn us to hell since they are His chosen and can do no wrong.
>Being single issued is fine. If you're pro-life and say God bless america at the end of every speech you're okay.
>If you question any decision made by Bush you're not a patriot.
>Guns NEVER kill anyone. People do. It's that simple. "Out of my cold, dead hands!"
>It's a greater sin to have sex in the oval office than it is to send soldiers to their deaths for dubious reasons.
>
>"Environment? We don't need no stinkin' environment!"

you obviously never read my thread "defining our differences".
god, talk about putting words in someone's mouth !
i merely asked you a question and you said i was putting words in your mouth and now this tripe.
do you really think your hero was disbarred because he had a blow job at work ?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Nov 8 08:17:38 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
I said I'm ani-american government, not anti-american.

so in effect you would be anti-american too if said american supported his govt.

>Note the term 'doing what 'we' want'
>Maybe the whole world should launch a pre-emptive attack on the US because they might well become the next one on the list if they have something of value in their country; and the US has nukes as well, so it has to be taken out.
>
>Oh no, I forgot, the US can have nukes as it has a very peaceful 'history'.
>
once again, i will say, "note the term pre-emptive". if you still don't believe saddam was a growing menace to the world, try asking his neighbors. no he was not aiming his weapons at america, but he was perfectly willing to sell them to terrorists who would use them against us.
i noticed you conveniently ignored my question to you: "do you think we did a bad thing by taking saddam out"?
>>>
>>>Also, a lot of the mass graves are dated from before and right after the first gulf war.
>>
>>and that means what ?
>
>That means that the US should have taken hussein out after the first gulf war, the fact that there are so many mass graves is partly 'your' own fault.

hmmm, i believe the UN mandate said the mission of the coalition was ONLY to liberat kuwait, not take out the existing regime in iraq. of course we all know now that the UN is nothing more than a circus, but at the time bush sr. was trying to play by the rules, so that would really make it the UN's fault wouldn't it ? then again that would be eurothink. tell me, how could it really be anyone's fault other than saddam's ? spin that one for me.

>>>And yes, if you think you can police the world you do consider yourself as 'the good guy'.
>>
>>and we don't go anywhere where we aren't asked to go unless we are threatened.
>
>You weren't threatened by Iraq, you were threatened by saudi's who flew into the towers.

why does everybody keep trying to tie this into the 9/11 tragedy ?
it's about world terrorism, not one act of terror. don't you guys get real news over there ? your spinmeisters are spewing anti-american spin faster than you can gobble it up and your growing fat on it.
once again, it's about world terrorism, not one act of terror. the man has attacked four of his neighbors without provocation, and used wmd's on his own people as well as his enemies, and perpetrated unspeakable acts of horror on his own people.

>>>It is also true that america doesn't have any friends, it only has interests (just like any other country as well).
>>
>>you might just check with the diplomatic offices in taiwan, the phillipines, and singapore to name a few.
>
>Yes, I'll call my local friends there and ask them how they feel.

your local friends have subsisted on a diet of anti-american gruel for too many years now. of course we know how they feel. anti americanism is strong in western europe, so what ?
>
>In politics charity doesn't exist. Never. America isn't an exception, get over it.

say what you want, america is the most charitable country in the world.

>>there are some 60 thousand american graves in france alone that would suggest a friendship as well, but mr chirac sure put that one in the shitter.
>>
>>i would ask you as i did addison: would you suggest that we did a bad thing by removing saddam from power ?
>
>I never underestimated the sacrifice of the people who gave their lives there, and also america was 'dragged into it' by the sinking of the Lusitania in 1917, but wasn the war way before that by supporting europe with weapons and such under the cover of 'neutral passenger ships'.
>
>In the 2nd one america knew very well that if europe would fall it would end up a target sooner or later as well.

>Also, the people then and the people know, both americans and europeans, are not the same.
>
>Although I appreciate the sacrifice of the soldiers who fell here, I don't feel like I owe america anything and that doesn't make me obliged to agree with anything america says either.

no one is suggesting that you have to agree with anything or that you owe us anything more than the benefit of the doubt. americans don't begrudge anyone who is in disagreement, but we do begrudge those who work against us, that is a very different thing, and that is what mr chirac has done. we have patched our differences with germany and russia, but not france.

>>>Wake up and smell the shit man, seriously.


 
Savvode Posted: Sat Nov 8 08:48:09 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  >ifihadahif said:
>>note the term "pre-emptive"
>Christophe said:
>>Note the term 'doing what 'we' want'
>Maybe the whole world should launch a pre-emptive attack on the US because they might well become the next one on the list if they have something of value in their country; and the US has nukes as well, so it has to be taken out.
>
>Oh no, I forgot, the US can have nukes as it has a very peaceful 'history'.
>

haaaa....u wouldn't believe but that was exactly one thought passing through my mind as well. it was like deja-vu for me when i read this LOL


 
addi Posted: Sat Nov 8 09:26:37 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>you obviously never read my thread "defining our differences".
>god, talk about putting words in someone's mouth !
>i merely asked you a question and you said i was putting words in your mouth and now this tripe.
>do you really think your hero was disbarred because he had a blow job at work ?

I'm trying to be happy and enjoy my weekend hif. You're making it difficult. Whether you believe me or not I like you, and respect your difference of opinion. This personal shit (can't think of another word for it) needs to stop. The above response was to ZANDER'S post. Nowhere did I mention you or copy your posts. I was adding my thoughts to his comments on the differences between Rep. and Demo's. Not everything I write is directed to you personally. Go have a cup, some weed, and relax friend.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Nov 8 15:09:10 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>you obviously never read my thread "defining our differences".
>>god, talk about putting words in someone's mouth !
>>i merely asked you a question and you said i was putting words in your mouth and now this tripe.
>>do you really think your hero was disbarred because he had a blow job at work ?
>
>I'm trying to be happy and enjoy my weekend hif. You're making it difficult. Whether you believe me or not I like you, and respect your difference of opinion. This personal shit (can't think of another word for it) needs to stop. The above response was to ZANDER'S post. Nowhere did I mention you or copy your posts. I was adding my thoughts to his comments on the differences between Rep. and Demo's. Not everything I write is directed to you personally. Go have a cup, some weed, and relax friend.

of course you like me, what's not to like ?
i never said you copied anything of mine, although if you did, it might make you seem more intelligent**LOL**
sorry, just not having as good a weekend as you are obviously.


 
addi Posted: Sat Nov 8 19:34:26 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:


>
>of course you like me, what's not to like ?
>i never said you copied anything of mine, although if you did, it might make you seem more intelligent**LOL**
>sorry, just not having as good a weekend as you are obviously.

Everythings cooool, pal.


 



[ Reply to this thread ] [ Start new thread ]