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Buildings that aren't burning
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Dec 1 12:20:51 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Subject: THE BUILDINGS THAT AREN'T BURNING IN IRAQ

"They have a saying in the news business," Geraldo Rivera related this week.
"Reporters don't report buildings that don't burn." And with that
introduction, he told a TV audience about the story that is being
systematically denied to our entire nation: the success story of post-Saddam
Iraq. Are we losing some soldiers each week? Yes. Is there some frustration
in the public about electricity and water service? Yes.
Are some Saddam Hussein loyalists scurrying throughout the land, making
trouble? Yes. Has this opened a window for some terrorist mischief? Yes.
But that's all we hear. No wonder the country is in a mixed mood about Iraq.

If you hear about the buildings that are not burning, though, it is a
different story indeed.

Rivera is no shill for George W. Bush. But Bush, Condi Rice and Colin Powell
together could not have been as effective as Geraldo was Thursday night on
the Fox News Channel's Hannity and Colmes program.

"When I got to Baghdad, I barely recognized it," he began, comparing his
just-completed trip to two others he made during and just after the battle
to topple Saddam. "You have over 30,000 Iraqi cops and militiamen already on
the job. This is four months after major fighting stopped.

"Can you imagine that kind of gearing up in this country? Law and order is
better; archaeological sites are being preserved; factories, schools are
being guarded."
But what about the secondhand griping that the media have been so
efficiently relating about power, water and other infrastructure?

"To say that Iraq is being rebuilt is not true," answered Rivera. "Iraq is
being built. There was no infrastructure before; we are doing it. I just
think the good news is being underestimated and underreported."

At this juncture, one must evaluate how to feel about the voices telling us
only about the bad news in Iraq, whether from the mouths of news anchors or
Democratic presidential hopefuls.

At best, they are underinformed. At worst, their one-sided assessments of
post-Saddam Iraq are intentional falsehoods for obvious reasons.

If I hear one more person mock that "Mission Accomplished" banner beneath
which President Bush thanked a shipload of sailors and Marines a few months
back, I'm going to spit. That was a reference to the ouster of Saddam's
regime, and that mission was indeed accomplished, apparently to the great
chagrin of the American left.

No one said what followed would be easy or cheap, and that's why the
dripping-water torture of the cost and casualty stories is so infuriating.
Remember we pay our soldiers whether they are in Iraq or in Ft Bragg, North
Carolina.

We should all mourn the loss of every fallen soldier. But context cries out
to be heard. Our present news media is not performing this task.

As some dare to wonder if this might become a Vietnam-like quagmire, I'll
remind whoever needs it that most of our 58,000 Vietnam war toll died
between 1966 and 1972, during which we lost an average of about 8,000 per
year. That's about 22 per day, every day, for thousands of days on end.
Let us hear no more Vietnam comparisons. They do not equate.

What I hope to hear is more truth, even if we have to wrench it from the
mouths of the media and political hacks predisposed to bash the remarkable
job we are doing every day in what was not so long ago a totalitarian
wasteland.

Local elections are under way across Iraq, Rivera reported. "Where Kurds and
Arabs have been battling for decades, things have been settling down.
Administrator Paul Bremer is doing a great job."
So does Geraldo think his media colleagues are intentionally painting with
one side of the brush?

"I'm not into conspiracy theories...there's just more bang for your buck
when you report the GI who got killed rather than the 99 who didn't get
killed, who make friends, who helped schedule elections, who helped shops
get open for business, who helped traffic flow again.

"The vast majority of Iraqis are very happy to have us there... I would like
to see a bit more balance." This needs to be reported to the American Public
who are presently being duped. I expect the dominant media culture to
nitpick Bush, and Democrats to blast him with reckless abandon. But when
that leads to the willful exclusion of facts that would shine truthful light
on the great work of the American armed forces, that level of malice plumbs new depths.




 
Asswipe Posted: Mon Dec 1 18:49:54 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  no, it's not the almighty words of Geraldo but they are my own, so here they come.

Who the fuck wants what america has? Are we the best? If you consider having the most amount of useless toys and crappy big budget action flicks and big screen TV's to watch people hitting a ball w/ a stick or crappy sitcoms being the best than the answer is yes, but i disagree. If the Iraqi's knew what was good for them they'd not support the "help" of the US. OOh, how pleasant, a mcdonalds on every sandy corner! How many Americans do you know that are fucking lost in lives they don't even enjoy living?


 
Howitzer Posted: Mon Dec 1 19:03:45 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I know tons of these "lost" americans. but i am not one of them. but i happen to have what americans have. it is not the same for everyone. i love what i have here, and what other ppl want IS going to be diff than what i want. the thing about "american" life, is that they can have it.


 
socialyD Posted: Mon Dec 1 19:04:46 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  A side note: God bless the men that are sacrficing their lives on that battle front so that every Iraqi has the chance to speak up and make up their own mind about US support. I may not agree with everything or anyting about this war but I believe in friends and brothers serving over there.

I have always believed that the media chases their own story whether it is true or not. In country that believes innocent until proven guilty, how many media sorces have condemed a man because they believe what they believe not matter how twisted the facts. I think that it is great that someone had the guts to say, 'Hey maybe we're only showing the side of the story we want to.'! I beleive in free will, I believe information should be given to the public as unbaised as possible so that every american can make their own informed descision.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Dec 1 21:06:14 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>no, it's not the almighty words of Geraldo but they are my own, so here they come.
>
>Who the fuck wants what america has? Are we the best? If you consider having the most amount of useless toys and crappy big budget action flicks and big screen TV's to watch people hitting a ball w/ a stick or crappy sitcoms being the best than the answer is yes, but i disagree. If the Iraqi's knew what was good for them they'd not support the "help" of the US. OOh, how pleasant, a mcdonalds on every sandy corner! How many Americans do you know that are fucking lost in lives they don't even enjoy living?

apparently millions of people want what we have, hence the immigration problem.
not just the illegals either, the best and brightest from every corner of the globe are coming here because they will have a better life for their families. have you ever noticed how many foreign doctors there are nowadays ? or just try to find an american engineer at any factory or engineering firm.
i agree with you about the crappy sitcoms, but you do have the ultimate weapon for that, it's called the on/off switch. as for the big budget action flicks, who gives a fuck ? we already know they're gonna suck before they hit the theaters. don't go !
i personally enjoy sports on tv, and i also enjoy some fast food once in awhile, although i would rather go to a full service restaurant and order carry out, if i must eat it at home.
are you saying people don't enjoy living just because they are in america ? give me a break !
unless you live under the boot of an asshole ruler, if you don't enjoy living, then the problem is in your head, not because of your country.
even in cuba, people know how to enjoy life.
or are you saying americans don't appreciate what they have ? i can certainly agree with that. until you have seen first hand what it takes to secure our freedom, then you can never appreciate what we have.


 
addi Posted: Mon Dec 1 22:31:01 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm NOT getting sucked into this one. Hif and I will go round and round and it will end nowhere.
Suffice it to say..Geraldo?! If I was attempting to get my point of view across the LAST person I would use as a source for unbaised reliable news would be him. At least find someone a little more credible hif. He's a joke in the world of serious news journalism, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican. geraldo needs to stick to titilating stories on stations like the E channel, and continue his quest for the lost treasure of Al Capone.

*Bravo asswipe


 
Asswipe Posted: Tue Dec 2 02:05:47 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  all i'm saying is that if you believe America to be "good", your priorities are seriously fucked up. The most important people in our society are the ones that provide entertainment; escape from life: Athletes, actors, etc. Capitalism sucks the life out of life and creates zombies driven solely to work as efficiently as possible and to create as high profits as possible in order to escape from it all in any number of ways. Yes, this leads to vast increases in technology but at what costs? All I see is injustice. Fuck the automobile, fuck the television. Give me a small town full of smiling faces. Give me a lake in the summer and a snowy hill to sled down in the winter. Toss in some books to record my fleeting thoughts and you've got MY America.


 
Asswipe Posted: Tue Dec 2 02:29:00 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>all i'm saying is that if you believe America to be "good", your priorities are seriously fucked up. The most important people in our society are the ones that provide entertainment; escape from life: Athletes, actors, etc. Capitalism sucks the life out of life and creates zombies driven solely to work as efficiently as possible and to create as high profits as possible in order to escape from it all in any number of ways. Yes, this leads to vast increases in technology but at what costs? All I see is injustice. Fuck the automobile, fuck the television. Give me a small town full of smiling faces. Give me a lake in the summer and a snowy hill to sled down in the winter. Toss in some books to record my fleeting thoughts and you've got MY America.

oh yeah! take away the threat of unnatural world destruction, too! i think that'd be all


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Dec 2 09:08:45 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>all i'm saying is that if you believe America to be "good", your priorities are seriously fucked up. The most important people in our society are the ones that provide entertainment; escape from life: Athletes, actors, etc. Capitalism sucks the life out of life and creates zombies driven solely to work as efficiently as possible and to create as high profits as possible in order to escape from it all in any number of ways. Yes, this leads to vast increases in technology but at what costs? All I see is injustice. Fuck the automobile, fuck the television. Give me a small town full of smiling faces. Give me a lake in the summer and a snowy hill to sled down in the winter. Toss in some books to record my fleeting thoughts and you've got MY America.

there's nothing wrong with what you're saying, YOUR AMERICA does exist, if you would just look for it. America is not just one lifestyle and entertainment icons are not the most important people in our country.
what injustice ? is this what you see on the tv that you profess to hate or have you actually visited the courts and the prisons ?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Dec 2 09:12:34 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>I'm NOT getting sucked into this one. Hif and I will go round and round and it will end nowhere.
>Suffice it to say..Geraldo?! If I was attempting to get my point of view across the LAST person I would use as a source for unbaised reliable news would be him. At least find someone a little more credible hif. He's a joke in the world of serious news journalism, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican. geraldo needs to stick to titilating stories on stations like the E channel, and continue his quest for the lost treasure of Al Capone.
>
>*Bravo asswipe

so just what exactly is untrue in his statements above ?
and when has he ever been accused of lying to the people ?
yes, he had a tabloid type show for awhile but don't forget his beginnings as a war correspondent in the middle east in the 70's.



 
addi Posted: Tue Dec 2 12:28:38 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>so just what exactly is untrue in his statements above ?
>and when has he ever been accused of lying to the people ?
>yes, he had a tabloid type show for awhile but don't forget his beginnings as a war correspondent in the middle east in the 70's.


Geraldo's the best comedy on TV

Tim Goodman Friday, December 21, 2001


Everything we know we learned from television:

"Hello, I'm gun-toting Geraldo Rivera, reporting live from My War in Afghanistan, where everything I say revolves around me and what I'm doing and what I'm feeling or thinking. In today's developments, I-I-I-me-me-me-I-I-me- me-I. Now back to Fox News and more saber rattling."

Help us, we've been mesmerized by those relentless news crawls, and now we've fallen down and can't get up. Just thought we'd duly note that we still hate them.

Geraldo was busted in the chops by the Baltimore Sun for falsely saying he was on "hallowed ground" near Kandahar where friendly fire killed some American soldiers. Turns out he was a couple hundred miles away. He said that in the "fog of war" he had mistaken it for another friendly-fire incident near Tora Bora. But the Sun reminded him that incident took place several days after his report.

What all of this means: If you're not watching Rivera's weird, bizarre reports on Fox News, you're missing some of television's best entertainment.

Or this:

Monday, March 31, 2003
CNN: U.S. Military Expels Blabbermouth Geraldo From Iraq

Peter Arnett isn't the only U.S. reporter busted in Iraq: The U.S. military is expelling Fox News Channel's unfortunate hire Geraldo Rivera from the country, CNN reported today.

CNN quotes U.S. military officials as saying Geraldo violated "the cardinal rule of war reporting Monday by giving away crucial details of future military operations during a live broadcast." It gave no further information.
(follow up: Instead of being forced out by the Army and sanctioned he chose to leave on his own)

or this:

There is a simple rule when covering a war that all journalists should follow: Do not do anything that could endanger the lives of soldiers. It seems Geraldo Rivera, the village idiot of the TV Journalism world, didn't quite grasp this rule when he violated his agreement with the U.S. Military by disclosing his location (along with U.S. troops) in Iraq.

Now, you can be for or against the war. We here at Bully are actually split, with some being for the war and others opposed to it. We've never been one to take a hard line left or right approach as we see the hypocrisy in both. But regardless of where you stand, most would agree that giving out troop locations puts American soldiers in danger and therefore is a bloody stupid thing to do. Rivera of course, being the complete and utter fool that he is, made the situation worse by actually drawing a map of where he and the 101st Airborne Division were located on International television. After the military announced his expulsion for revealing the division's location and projected route to Baghdad, Rivera took to the airwaves yet again, screeching like a primadonna. "It sounds like some rats from my former network, NBC, are trying to stab me in the back."

Yeah, getting kicked out had nothing whatsoever to do with you revealing troop locations. What an ass.


I could post dozens more hif, but for the sake of everyone's eyes I'll spare you. What do the above negative words prove about the opinions of Geraldo in the story you posted? Nothing. But a wise person always considers both the content AND the source of information when deciding on it's factualness.

The bottom line for me is that over the past 2 decades I've seen this man's work. Geraldo's biggest priority has always been to feature Geraldo, the story is secondary.






 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Dec 2 13:28:20 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>I could post dozens more hif, but for the sake of everyone's eyes I'll spare you. What do the above negative words prove about the opinions of Geraldo in the story you posted? Nothing. But a wise person always considers both the content AND the source of information when deciding on it's factualness.
>
> The bottom line for me is that over the past 2 decades I've seen this man's work. Geraldo's biggest priority has always been to feature Geraldo, the story is secondary.

you are pretty much correct, i won't argue against any points you have made, but as you said, nothing disproves any of the points made in the title post of this thread. i could find similar essays by more credible journalists saying much the same thing, but i thought that since geraldo is pretty much a liberal that it might carry more weight, only because he really doesn't have a lot of interest in pushing W's agenda.
the fact is, that what he says is true.
there are no reporters there every time we open a new school or energize another electrical grid, or another wastewater treatment plant. this is stuff that happens every day, and all we hear is quagmire, another vietnam, and the bodybags are coming home.
the iraq situation is not and will never be comparable to vietnam.
for all of you youngsters out there eager to call it another vietnam, here is a telling statistic: for 8 years in vietnam we lost an average of 22 soldiers every day.
>
>


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Dec 2 13:29:19 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>so just what exactly is untrue in his statements above ?
>>and when has he ever been accused of lying to the people ?
>>yes, he had a tabloid type show for awhile but don't forget his beginnings as a war correspondent in the middle east in the 70's.
>
>
>Geraldo's the best comedy on TV
>
>Tim Goodman Friday, December 21, 2001
>
>
>Everything we know we learned from television:
>
>"Hello, I'm gun-toting Geraldo Rivera, reporting live from My War in Afghanistan, where everything I say revolves around me and what I'm doing and what I'm feeling or thinking. In today's developments, I-I-I-me-me-me-I-I-me- me-I. Now back to Fox News and more saber rattling."
>
>Help us, we've been mesmerized by those relentless news crawls, and now we've fallen down and can't get up. Just thought we'd duly note that we still hate them.
>
>Geraldo was busted in the chops by the Baltimore Sun for falsely saying he was on "hallowed ground" near Kandahar where friendly fire killed some American soldiers. Turns out he was a couple hundred miles away. He said that in the "fog of war" he had mistaken it for another friendly-fire incident near Tora Bora. But the Sun reminded him that incident took place several days after his report.
>
>What all of this means: If you're not watching Rivera's weird, bizarre reports on Fox News, you're missing some of television's best entertainment.
>
>Or this:
>
> Monday, March 31, 2003
>CNN: U.S. Military Expels Blabbermouth Geraldo From Iraq
>
>Peter Arnett isn't the only U.S. reporter busted in Iraq: The U.S. military is expelling Fox News Channel's unfortunate hire Geraldo Rivera from the country, CNN reported today.
>
>CNN quotes U.S. military officials as saying Geraldo violated "the cardinal rule of war reporting Monday by giving away crucial details of future military operations during a live broadcast." It gave no further information.
> (follow up: Instead of being forced out by the Army and sanctioned he chose to leave on his own)
>
>or this:
>
>There is a simple rule when covering a war that all journalists should follow: Do not do anything that could endanger the lives of soldiers. It seems Geraldo Rivera, the village idiot of the TV Journalism world, didn't quite grasp this rule when he violated his agreement with the U.S. Military by disclosing his location (along with U.S. troops) in Iraq.
>
>Now, you can be for or against the war. We here at Bully are actually split, with some being for the war and others opposed to it. We've never been one to take a hard line left or right approach as we see the hypocrisy in both. But regardless of where you stand, most would agree that giving out troop locations puts American soldiers in danger and therefore is a bloody stupid thing to do. Rivera of course, being the complete and utter fool that he is, made the situation worse by actually drawing a map of where he and the 101st Airborne Division were located on International television. After the military announced his expulsion for revealing the division's location and projected route to Baghdad, Rivera took to the airwaves yet again, screeching like a primadonna. "It sounds like some rats from my former network, NBC, are trying to stab me in the back."
>
>Yeah, getting kicked out had nothing whatsoever to do with you revealing troop locations. What an ass.
>
>
>I could post dozens more hif, but for the sake of everyone's eyes I'll spare you. What do the above negative words prove about the opinions of Geraldo in the story you posted? Nothing. But a wise person always considers both the content AND the source of information when deciding on it's factualness.
>
> The bottom line for me is that over the past 2 decades I've seen this man's work. Geraldo's biggest priority has always been to feature Geraldo, the story is secondary.
>
haha, now we are going round and round just like you said. . . LOL
>
>


 
Asswipe Posted: Tue Dec 2 16:41:50 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>there's nothing wrong with what you're saying, YOUR AMERICA does exist, if you would just look for it. America is not just one lifestyle and entertainment icons are not the most important people in our country.
>what injustice ? is this what you see on the tv that you profess to hate or have you actually visited the courts and the prisons ?

i suppose i was in quite an idealistic mood when i posted my above rant but i still think the most influential and important people in the country are the ones who keep everyone entertained. Ever watch Jay Leno and see the street walks he takes interviewing people about basic current events or history questions? I'd bet the majority of folks in the country resemble the people portrayed by Leno and would score much better on the tests if questions asked were related to the latest episode of survivor or american idol.

the injustice i'm speaking of grows from the basics of capitalism. It creates a never ending struggle to be the best. it creates people who care very little for human life, only for profit. It creates a society where the more educated people are valued more, even though the less educated are still just as needed to consume goods and perform less skilled jobs. It creates sweatshops. overall, it brings out the worst in people.

what would jesus say about capitalism? he'd say it fucking sucks.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Dec 2 16:53:47 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>there's nothing wrong with what you're saying, YOUR AMERICA does exist, if you would just look for it. America is not just one lifestyle and entertainment icons are not the most important people in our country.
>>what injustice ? is this what you see on the tv that you profess to hate or have you actually visited the courts and the prisons ?
>
>i suppose i was in quite an idealistic mood when i posted my above rant but i still think the most influential and important people in the country are the ones who keep everyone entertained. Ever watch Jay Leno and see the street walks he takes interviewing people about basic current events or history questions? I'd bet the majority of folks in the country resemble the people portrayed by Leno and would score much better on the tests if questions asked were related to the latest episode of survivor or american idol.

jay leno ? dude you need to travel more. the one ounce of truth you unwittingly uncovered there is the fact that our education system in in shambles.
>
>the injustice i'm speaking of grows from the basics of capitalism. It creates a never ending struggle to be the best. it creates people who care very little for human life

americans care very little for human life ? look back at all the natural distasters that occurred in the last 50yrs and see who was there first with relief and assistance.
take a look at how much charity and relief we export to the rest of the world. join the peace corps.


only for profit. It creates a society where the more educated people are valued more, even though the less educated are still just as needed to consume goods and perform less skilled jobs. It creates sweatshops. overall, it brings out the worst in people.

i'm not sure what you are getting at here, are you saying that the less skilled workers should get paid the same as the skilled ones ?
if you think capitalism creates sweatshops methinks you should take a trip to cuba or china.
>
>what would jesus say about capitalism? he'd say it fucking sucks.

i sort of doubt he would say that, but i would never presume to put words in his mout.


 
Asswipe Posted: Tue Dec 2 17:17:54 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:


>jay leno ? dude you need to travel more. the one ounce of truth you unwittingly uncovered there is the fact that our education system in in shambles.

Right... now tell me, do you think more americans are familiar w/ the red scare during the cold war or w/ who won the most recent american idol or survivor contests? Now, how many Americans do you think realize that the same shit is probably going on right now in regards to "terrorists"?

>
>americans care very little for human life ? look back at all the natural distasters that occurred in the last 50yrs and see who was there first with relief and assistance.
>take a look at how much charity and relief we export to the rest of the world. join the peace corps.

and out of the majority, how many give a fuck? The point of my paragraph was mainly an attack on big businesses and their exploitation of workers.

>

>i'm not sure what you are getting at here, are you saying that the less skilled workers should get paid the same as the skilled ones ?

Maybe not the same but at least enough to live comfortably. If both sides are needed to maintain society, why shouldn't everyone live comfortably? There's surely enough money out there, and even enough to keep the better educated ones making more.

>if you think capitalism creates sweatshops methinks you should take a trip to cuba or china.

I never said sweatshops ONLY form under capitalism just that the desire to MAKE MONEY inspires people to take advantage of others.




 
Kira Posted: Tue Dec 2 18:06:26 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Capitalists, not care about people? But without people, people can't make money.


 
mtutimmy Posted: Tue Dec 2 23:59:52 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I've read what everyone has said and here are my thoughts

1) I've never been to post-war Iraq and I'm sure that none of the people posting here have been there either. Gerlado has and regardless of his journalistic past, I'll take his word for it.

2) Asswipe said: "Fuck the automobile, fuck the television." I was wondering if asswipe has a car and uses it or watches TV since Asswipe obviously is up on current reality television.

3) If America is so bad then get out, go live somewhere else and bask in the non-american-ness of where ever you end up. All I can say is that I've come to rely on the fact that I can say that my government is doing a lousy job when I don't agree with what they're doing or jump for joy when they do something right. It's called freedom, a right and priviledge that a lot of people around the world don't get to enjoy.

4) I do know more about the red scare than who won the latest reality non-reality showcased on Television.

Whether you agree with what I have to say or not is up to you, just give it a thought. Afterall, I've thought about what you said.


 
addi Posted: Wed Dec 3 07:23:40 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mtutimmy said:

>
>1) I've never been to post-war Iraq and I'm sure that none of the people posting here have been there either. Gerlado has and regardless of his journalistic past, I'll take his word for it.

So it doesn't make any difference to you who does the reporting or what their past credentials are? Just as long as they've been there you'll take their word for it? How thoughtful and discriminating.

>
>3) If America is so bad then get out, go live somewhere else and bask in the non-american-ness of where ever you end up. All I can say is that I've come to rely on the fact that I can say that my government is doing a lousy job when I don't agree with what they're doing or jump for joy when they do something right. It's called freedom, a right and priviledge that a lot of people around the world don't get to enjoy.

Typical "love it or leave it" response. I love my country and have no desire to be an ex-patriot. I also know that there are many freedoms I enjoy here that citizens in SOME countries don't enjoy (this may come as a shock, but America does not have exclusive rights to citizen freedoms. Just ask Christophe). Complaining about an individual, or a policy, is too often viewed as being unpatriotic. Sometimes the person doing the complaining is actually motivated by a love of what this country ought to stand for. They want to make America a better place, whether that criticism comes from a conservative or a liberal. To insinuate that people like Asswipe need to consider moving to another country if they see things they don't like here is sad, and an unpatriotic view in my opinion.

>4) I do know more about the red scare than who won the latest reality non-reality showcased on Television.

Good for you, Timmy! You're in a minority. I would venture to guess that a majority of "people on the street" would answer a question like that with,
"Is that what women call that time of the month?"
or
"I think that's a horror flick by Tarrantino, isn't it?"

*welcome to the board by the way. I don't remember seeing any of your posts in the past.




 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Dec 3 08:22:21 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>
>Right... now tell me, do you think more americans are familiar w/ the red scare during the cold war or w/ who won the most recent american idol or survivor contests? Now, how many Americans do you think realize that the same shit is probably going on right now in regards to "terrorists"?

i think more americans are familiar with the red scare than reality telivision. maybe not in your tiny world of academia, but in the real world everybody doesn't watch tv religiously.
>>
>and out of the majority, how many give a fuck? The point of my paragraph was mainly an attack on big businesses and their exploitation of workers.

damn you sound like jimmy hoffa !
exploitation of the workers,what an original phrase.
hmmm, now the average assembly line worker in america gets around 25-30 dollars an hour with a befefit package that would be comparable to any and better than most. this "exploited" worker is able to get his new suv every year and have a truck and a boat at the lake for his two point 5 kids he has in private school. this is not the exception but the norm. that's some "exploited worker".
i survive in the working class just under the assembly line guys. i work in a supply house and get a little less in both salary and benefits, still i have a better standard of living than most in the world. of course the people that live in the public housing projects just down the street from my office have a better standard of living than most of the world.
>
>Maybe not the same but at least enough to live comfortably. If both sides are needed to maintain society, why shouldn't everyone live comfortably? There's surely enough money out there, and even enough to keep the better educated ones making more.

define comfort for me if you please.
would that be decent acommodations, where the roof doesn't leak, plumbing is good, heat in the wintertime, and air conditioning in the summertime ?
that is a pretty good description of our public housing.

>I never said sweatshops ONLY form under capitalism just that the desire to MAKE MONEY inspires people to take advantage of others.

there's that thing again. exploited workers or "taking advantage".
why is paying a fair wage for services rendered considered "taking advantage"?
in a capatilist society, if you think the boss is unfair, go somewhere else and get a job.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Dec 3 18:50:43 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>i think more americans are familiar with the red scare than reality telivision. maybe not in your tiny world of academia, but in the real world everybody doesn't watch tv religiously.

they may be familiar w/ the cold war and the two major parties involved but i doubt many know who McCarthur is and how the whole country acted similarly to the salem village folk during the witch hunts.


>damn you sound like jimmy hoffa !
>exploitation of the workers,what an original phrase.

how 'bout, you're an asshole, for originality?

>hmmm, now the average assembly line worker in america gets around 25-30 dollars an hour with a befefit package that would be comparable to any and better than most. this "exploited" worker is able to get his new suv every year and have a truck and a boat at the lake for his two point 5 kids he has in private school. this is not the exception but the norm. that's some "exploited worker".

check out another beautiful flick by, your favorite, Michael Moore, called Roger and Me. It's all about the shift of the american economy from industry to service based. This is when all of these assembly line folks you're talking of lose their jobs because the company moves their factories over seas where they can pay little girls 12 cents a day to screw shit together. aka. the beauty of choosing profit over giving a fuck about the well being of fellow humans.

>i survive in the working class just under the assembly line guys. i work in a supply house and get a little less in both salary and benefits, still i have a better standard of living than most in the world. of course the people that live in the public housing projects just down the street from my office have a better standard of living than most of the world.

yes, good for you. I'm not saying other places arn't more fucked up then here. but i can assure you that no one in poverty will ever benefit from the actions of a republican, or at least from his main motives.


>
>define comfort for me if you please.
>would that be decent acommodations, where the roof doesn't leak, plumbing is good, heat in the wintertime, and air conditioning in the summertime ?
>that is a pretty good description of our public housing.


i suppose by a decent standard of living i'm talking about living above the poverty line.


>there's that thing again. exploited workers or "taking advantage".
>why is paying a fair wage for services rendered considered "taking advantage"?

because someone needs to do the job and people should be payed according to their needs.

>in a capatilist society, if you think the boss is unfair, go somewhere else and get a job.

yeah, cause it's so easy to find a job these days. another, yee-haw, out come from our lovely capitalism.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Dec 3 19:20:14 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>they may be familiar w/ the cold war and the two major parties involved but i doubt many know who McCarthur is and how the whole country acted similarly to the salem village folk during the witch hunts.

you can't really compare us today to what happened during the witch hunts. we are a little more sophisticated than that. even democrats ! in this age of information and the free press, the witch trials cannot happen again.

>>damn you sound like jimmy hoffa !
>>exploitation of the workers,what an original phrase.
>
>how 'bout, you're an asshole, for originality?

yeah, but i think asswipe is more appropriate. . .LOL
>
>check out another beautiful flick by, your favorite, Michael Moore, called Roger and Me. It's all about the shift of the american economy from industry to service based. This is when all of these assembly line folks you're talking of lose their jobs because the company moves their factories over seas where they can pay little girls 12 cents a day to screw shit together. aka. the beauty of choosing profit over giving a fuck about the well being of fellow humans.

well, i might if i didn't think most of his stuff is not truthful.
i'm pretty sure that there aren't a lot of 12yr old girls working on general motors assembly lines, that was the focus of that movie wasn't it? general motors leaving flint michigan ?
it doesn't matter if a GM plant moves overseas, they keep building new honda and toyota plants here.
>
>
>yes, good for you. I'm not saying other places arn't more fucked up then here. but i can assure you that no one in poverty will ever benefit from the actions of a republican, or at least from his main motives.

yeah, that's why more and more blacks and minorities are flocking to the republican party now. they realize that the democrats have done nothing for them. social programs do not help the poor. they only keep them poor.
who was it that said, "give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, but teach him how to fish and he will eat every day"?
i realize that's rather simplistic but i think you get the gist.
>>
>i suppose by a decent standard of living i'm talking about living above the poverty line.

which poverty line is that ? america's, or england's or mexico's ?
how do you track that ?
poverty in america equals "very comfortable" in mexico or the phillipines, or most of eastern europe.

>because someone needs to do the job and people should be payed according to their needs.

no, people should be payed according to their performance, not their needs.
how would you like it if you worked in an office with a slacker and you did most of the work and carried him all week, but on payday he got more than you because he had kids ? that's just bullshit !
>
>yeah, cause it's so easy to find a job these days. another, yee-haw, out come from our lovely capitalism.

the jobs are there, it's up to you to get them and up to you to perform well enough to move up the ladder.
willingness to work hard will get you everywhere.
the american work ethic is the single most important reason we have the world's largest economy. we produce more and consume more than the rest of the world.

of course i don't expect you to fall in line and agree with me, we come from vastly different viewpoints, but yours is from youth and inexperience. you might stay towards the left all your life but you will eventually move closer to center. you are obviously not stupid, but it appears you have not considered the other side. i have been on both sides in my life and after considering them both, i chose to make my bed on the conservative side. that doesn't make me smarter than you, but if you don't consider both sides, then you make your decision out of ignorance and you are choosing with your feelings instead of your brain.
i enjoy our disagreements because your answers are usually well thought out.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Dec 3 20:15:38 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>
>you can't really compare us today to what happened during the witch hunts. we are a little more sophisticated than that. even democrats ! in this age of information and the free press, the witch trials cannot happen again.
>

the red scare didn't happen yesterday it happened like 50 years ago and it was exactly like the salem witch hunt. Do you realize people were being tried and questioned for reasons such as: talking about world peace, not attending church, being against local politics, owning a map of russia, having a high "conversational manner" and being well educated. An Ohio Housewife was quoted saying, "My husband's brother drinks and acts common-like. Sometimes I kind of think he is a Communist."


>yeah, but i think asswipe is more appropriate. . .LOL

bah

>
>well, i might if i didn't think most of his stuff is not truthful.
>i'm pretty sure that there aren't a lot of 12yr old girls working on general motors assembly lines, that was the focus of that movie wasn't it? general motors leaving flint michigan ?

nah, think nike


>
>yeah, that's why more and more blacks and minorities are flocking to the republican party now. they realize that the democrats have done nothing for them. social programs do not help the poor. they only keep them poor.
>who was it that said, "give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, but teach him how to fish and he will eat every day"?
>i realize that's rather simplistic but i think you get the gist.

I havn't heard of this... any proof? Facts are that socialist leaning programs saved the country and millions of people during the depression. On the other hand, Mr. Reagans, Supply Side Economics, the largest tax cut for the wealthy in history, also led to the largest federal budget shitting on in history; 907 Billion to 3.5 Trillion, a bigger decrease than all of the presidant's before him combined. More results? More? the richest 1% incomes increased by 77%, the bottom 40% lost income, full time workers living below the poverty line went from 12% to 18%; basically just an overall rise in poverty. Hurray for our republican hero?

>>>

>
>which poverty line is that ? america's, or england's or mexico's ?
>how do you track that ?
>poverty in america equals "very comfortable" in mexico or the phillipines, or most of eastern europe.
>

Yes, America's. I'm curious w/ the amount of wealth in the world if every family in the world could own a house and property.

>no, people should be payed according to their performance, not their needs.
>how would you like it if you worked in an office with a slacker and you did most of the work and carried him all week, but on payday he got more than you because he had kids ? that's just bullshit !

That is a rather hard area to deal w/ but its not avoided in our current system. There are tons of people out there sliding by because of shit besides their work ethic.

>>

>the american work ethic is the single most important reason we have the world's largest economy. we produce more and consume more than the rest of the world.

And what else does this desire to be the best give us?

>
>of course i don't expect you to fall in line and agree with me, we come from vastly different viewpoints, but yours is from youth and inexperience. you might stay towards the left all your life but you will eventually move closer to center. you are obviously not stupid, but it appears you have not considered the other side. i have been on both sides in my life and after considering them both, i chose to make my bed on the conservative side. that doesn't make me smarter than you, but if you don't consider both sides, then you make your decision out of ignorance and you are choosing with your feelings instead of your brain.

I can't believe how much of a pompous ass you are. "your view comes from youth and inexperience... and not considering both sides", gimme a fucking break. Just because I don't agree w/ you doesn't mean I havn't considered both sides. I've considered both sides, check out my stats above from mr reagans plans.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Dec 3 20:17:15 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i'm sure you could have figured it out but that "decrease" above was supposed to be "increase". fucking double negatives


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Dec 3 21:17:50 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>the red scare didn't happen yesterday it happened like 50 years ago and it was exactly like the salem witch hunt. Do you realize people were being tried and questioned for reasons such as: talking about world peace, not attending church, being against local politics, owning a map of russia, having a high "conversational manner" and being well educated. An Ohio Housewife was quoted saying, "My husband's brother drinks and acts common-like. Sometimes I kind of think he is a Communist."

yeah, i was there, and i can assure you that it wasn't the witch hunt that you make it out to be. read ann coulter's treason. it lays it out fact by fact.
>>yeah, but i think asswipe is more appropriate. . .LOL
>
>bah
>
>>
>nah, think nike
ok, that's one.
think toyota, honda, kia, volkswagen, nissan. . .
>
>>
>>yeah, that's why more and more blacks and minorities are flocking to the republican party now. they realize that the democrats have done nothing for them. social programs do not help the poor. they only keep them poor.
>>who was it that said, "give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, but teach him how to fish and he will eat every day"?
>>i realize that's rather simplistic but i think you get the gist.
>
>I havn't heard of this... any proof? Facts are that socialist leaning programs saved the country and millions of people during the depression. On the other hand, Mr. Reagans, Supply Side Economics, the largest tax cut for the wealthy in history, also led to the largest federal budget shitting on in history; 907 Billion to 3.5 Trillion, a bigger decrease than all of the presidant's before him combined. More results? More? the richest 1% incomes increased by 77%, the bottom 40% lost income, full time workers living below the poverty line went from 12% to 18%; basically just an overall rise in poverty. Hurray for our republican hero?
yeah, anyone can spin numbers. i was there, and i saw the economy turn around and i am seeing it turn around again today, thanks to conservative economics.
>>>>
>
>>
>>which poverty line is that ? america's, or england's or mexico's ?
>>how do you track that ?
>>poverty in america equals "very comfortable" in mexico or the phillipines, or most of eastern europe.
>>
>
>Yes, America's. I'm curious w/ the amount of wealth in the world if every family in the world could own a house and property.

sure everybody could own a house and property. america has enought wealth on it's own to feed and house the world.
so what ?
if we gave everyone on the planet a house and land today, how many do you think would still have them this time next year? you fail to account for human nature.
>
>>no, people should be payed according to their performance, not their needs.
>>how would you like it if you worked in an office with a slacker and you did most of the work and carried him all week, but on payday he got more than you because he had kids ? that's just bullshit !
>
>That is a rather hard area to deal w/ but its not avoided in our current system. There are tons of people out there sliding by because of shit besides their work ethic.

you bet it's a hard area to deal with.
you are a student are you not ?
do you work hard for your grades ?
should you give part of your grades to a lesser performing student so everyone could pass ?
>>>
>
>>the american work ethic is the single most important reason we have the world's largest economy. we produce more and consume more than the rest of the world.
>
>And what else does this desire to be the best give us?

um. . . the highest standard of living in the world.

>>of course i don't expect you to fall in line and agree with me, we come from vastly different viewpoints, but yours is from youth and inexperience. you might stay towards the left all your life but you will eventually move closer to center. you are obviously not stupid, but it appears you have not considered the other side. i have been on both sides in my life and after considering them both, i chose to make my bed on the conservative side. that doesn't make me smarter than you, but if you don't consider both sides, then you make your decision out of ignorance and you are choosing with your feelings instead of your brain.
>
>I can't believe how much of a pompous ass you are. "your view comes from youth and inexperience... and not considering both sides", gimme a fucking break. Just because I don't agree w/ you doesn't mean I havn't considered both sides. I've considered both sides, check out my stats above from mr reagans plans.
yeah, what about those stats ?
did you consider any stats written by a conservative type ? i'll bet not.
you can read stats all day and night, but you won't get anywhere because numbers can be spun to reflect whatever you want. i lived the reagan years and i say your stats are bullshit.
i stood in jimmy carters unemployment lines and i saw what reagan did for the country. then bush kept the ball rolling. eight years of clinton sent the economy to the toilet. it was already spiraling downward before 9/11 ever happened.
so what was the news from wall st. today ? eh ?
pompous ass huh ?
come back to me when you've lived a little history instead of just read about it in a book written by and for liberals.
check out david horowitz to see exactly why you can't get a fair point of view on any college campus in america today.


 
addi Posted: Wed Dec 3 21:34:26 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe, you're beating your head against a brick wall. I know I've been there myself. Hif, whom I greatly appreciate outside the world of politics, isn't going to change his mind no matter what you say. No matter if you're a young liberal, or an older liberal like me who's been around slightly longer than him. We both look at exactly the same historical events and see two entirely different results. Go, be happy, prosper, and never forget the value of questioning and seeking the truth.


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Dec 4 01:27:46 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>
>yeah, i was there, and i can assure you that it wasn't the witch hunt that you make it out to be. read ann coulter's treason. it lays it out fact by fact.

i searched for "treason" on the web and found a website full of quotes from it. Most of what i read was petty liberal bashing. She was also backing McCarthy too who was a fucking joke. The man used to create numbers seemingly at random; the # of commies in the world, the # of commies in the state department, all changing based on the number of people he passed on the way to work or something.

People were being tried by the Civil Service Commission for being suspected of being communists. Their trials often consisted of speaking in front of 3 civilian employees of military installations, no lawyers or actual judges. Several weeks later they would often be removed from their jobs, w/ out hearing any news about the outcomes of the trials, be barred from Civil Service appointment and from competing in Civil Service Exams for 3 years.

Yes, you were alive during this era... so what?


>yeah, anyone can spin numbers. i was there, and i saw the economy turn around and i am seeing it turn around again today, thanks to conservative economics.
>>>>>

so spin me up some numbers saying that what i said isn't true.


>
>sure everybody could own a house and property. america has enought wealth on it's own to feed and house the world.
>so what ?
>if we gave everyone on the planet a house and land today, how many do you think would still have them this time next year? you fail to account for human nature.

exactly what aspect of human nature are you accounting for here? I've no idea what would happen if everyone in the world was shipped food and houses by the US but I can imagine more people would sleep in houses at night and more people would eat food.

>
>you bet it's a hard area to deal with.
>you are a student are you not ?
>do you work hard for your grades ?
>should you give part of your grades to a lesser performing student so everyone could pass ?

yes, i'm a student, and yes I work hard for some of my grades. You seem to have failed to listen to or understand my statement above in this section, where i said the same exact issue exists in our system today. There are many people out there who work, don't work hard, and get payed for it, while some of their co-workers work hard and get fired.

Nonetheless, i'll answer your question. Passing classes and earning wages are different issues, especially if your example is placed in our world today. Of course it's not fair if i work hard for my grades and have to share the grade w/ someone who hasn't, but that's only if we're thrown back into competing for a job after school, where the numbers may matter.

Jobs could still be given in accordance w/ merit and ability, and people could be monitored to view their contribution to wherever they work. Having people monitor and test the workers will create more jobs! I refuse to believe that people will not work if they can see absolute benefits coming to them if they do.

>
>yeah, what about those stats ?
>did you consider any stats written by a conservative type ? i'll bet not.
>you can read stats all day and night, but you won't get anywhere because numbers can be spun to reflect whatever you want. i lived the reagan years and i say your stats are bullshit.

if they're bullshit then my history teacher flat out lied to us today in class.

>i stood in jimmy carters unemployment lines and i saw what reagan did for the country.

again, my teacher is quite liberal and maybe flat out lied, but i doubt it. She also discussed Reagan's dealing w/ terrorists, selling Iran weapons to pay for arming Contras in Nicaragua to oust the Sandonistas, I think they were called that.

>so what was the news from wall st. today ? eh ?
>pompous ass huh ?

I apologize for calling you a pompous ass but you're condescending as shit.






 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Dec 4 09:58:45 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>again, my teacher is quite liberal and maybe flat out lied, but i doubt it. She also discussed Reagan's dealing w/ terrorists, selling Iran weapons to pay for arming Contras in Nicaragua to oust the Sandonistas, I think they were called that.
>
>>so what was the news from wall st. today ? eh ?
>>pompous ass huh ?
>
>I apologize for calling you a pompous ass but you're condescending as shit.

no, your prof didn't lie anymore than ann coulter lied in "treason".
i would be willing to be that you can't even find a copy of treason in your campus library even though it was on the bestseller list for several months.
check for david horowitz in your library. he doesn't bash liberals with the same zeal as ann coulter, but he does deliver a conservative point of view and he has proven that on 99percent of our college campuses, you cannot get a balanced view of the world.
our campuses are skewed far to the left.
yeah, i can be condescending, and i can also be a pompous ass, apparently that is the cross i must bear. if you find me condescending, it's because i'm trying not to be offensive. i have been guilty in the past of only seeing things in black and white and not the gray areas.
and maybe it's because i'm just smarter than everybody else. LOL
addie was right, he and i are contemporaries and have lived the same history and we both see it differently.
well the guys that wrote your textbooks are no different. just keep that in mind.
as long as we both exist, we keep each other in check.
neither one of us has all the answers, but maybe together we do.
>


 
mat_j Posted: Thu Dec 4 12:01:51 2003 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The Bush twins are an amazing fuck. Oh and FYI the Bush part aint true, it's as smooth as a Kentucky bourbon down there


 



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