Generation Terrorists » Forum
Sign up   |   Start new thread   |   Lost password?   |   Edit profile   |   Member List   |   myGT   |   Blog
Keyword
From
To
 

Evil = Human (the great debate pt.2)
Adrian Posted: Wed Mar 3 11:30:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Some asked for a debate yesterday on the basis of Evil, I shall answer.
"Don't critise what you know in your heart we all are, Human. Not Evil."

To find the root of evil we to set out what sets Humans apart from the animal kingdom, when an animal kills he kills for survival i.e. food etc.
The difference between Humans and animals is Humans are self-conscious and FREE, as Mark Twain said of Freedom ...
"It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them."
The nature of Evil delves deep into our physcology, I would put it to you that primarily Evil is a part of us as Humans, and as such of course could not exist without a symbiosis with good. Humans tend to view things to judge things on the level of threat to which it presents to his two basis needs, survival and appropriation. It is because we are Free, and Human that we are all in someway Evil, I used to be a Catholic, now Aethiest, and even the bible can tells you that, ref. Genesis.
So by being Free, by having self-consciousness and intellect, by being Human we are ultimately "Evil".



 
antartica Posted: Wed Mar 3 11:41:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  rright!...

so basically what you've just said can very generally be summarised as FREE WILL = THE RIGHT TO DO EVIL?

but doesn't that same free will allow us to do good?

but before we actually go on about Good and Evil.

WHO, WHAT and HOW do we determine what's Good or Bad? what may be good in my country may be bad in another...

like discussed in an earlier thread about social norms... who sets it? who determines what's normal and what's not? like an example given, in some countries it's perfectly normal and even rude if you do not kiss the cheek of the person you are meeting if of opposite genders of course... but try that in any conservative asian culture?



ok.. of course that's only my point of view.




 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Mar 3 12:44:45 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  killing people is bad, as is raping people, as is doing anything that infringes on another's natural rights of life, liberty and property. read locke's 2nd treatise on government...

now... are all humans evil? do all humans abuse their fellow brothers in one of the ways mentioned above? no way. some do, sure, but most of us are good.

kissing or not kissing someone on the cheek upon greeting them has nothing to do with this. those are cultural norms that could not be compared as "good" or "evil" practices.


 
zander83 Posted: Wed Mar 3 14:07:35 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  FREE WILL = THE RIGHT TO DO EVIL

The thing with free-will is it is equally likely that everyone would freely choose to do evil or freely choose to do good. If one believes Kant the fact men commit evil acts is because its a mis-step in our developement to becoming perfect. The real dilemma with evil(Evil can be considered in two different forms, moral evil and physical evil. Moral evils are actions which are contrary to the moral law. Physical evils constitute such evils as earthquakes, disease, pain, and death. The inclusion of pain and death has been made in order to underline the idea that evil, in a purely physical manner, is something that creates discomfort to the people involved.) Basically i won't touch physical evil because its not really significant. The thing with any argument about evil is it almost immediately becomes a theist question. As Dostoyevsky said(loosely) "if there is no God, man is allowed to do anything." The explanation is simple, without an absolute moral authority the question of what is evil becomes moot, one can argue with the rights analogy, but its only true if you believe every human has a right to intrinsic worth, value, and rights. In other words, can we imagine a possibility where some people are "worth" more then others. Now if you include God in the argument things change and the question becomes how can God allow so much evil in the world... my 2 cents and i hope this all makes sense i didn't read over...


 
simonvii Posted: Wed Mar 3 14:10:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  this all reminds me of hobbes and locke and natural law...and that in turn reminds me of hobbes from calvin and hobbes...and that in turn makes me want to go to the bathroom sos i can read it...


 
Malik Posted: Wed Mar 3 14:20:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Mkay, I may be making one hell of a logical fallacy here, but I just thought of this:

Good and evil are concepts that are determined by what society thinks. Slaveholding wasn't evil pre 18th century, but it is today, because society has changed.

So, if we determine mankind as the general makeup of all people, aka society, then society cannot be construed as evil, because it is it's own measuring stick.

One society can say that another society is evil because their values do not conform, but a one cannot evaluate one's own society as evil.


 
Malik Posted: Wed Mar 3 14:20:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  So, in other words, at least I'm not evil, I dunno about the rest of you.


 
addi Posted: Wed Mar 3 14:22:22 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Good points Malik. You're smarter than you look in your picture : )


 
zander83 Posted: Wed Mar 3 14:37:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Thats only true without an absolute moral judge. Thing is though, based on what is judged most important, intent, action, consequence, actions can be judged all over the place. However, for example every society throughout history has condemned murder. Whether murder can qualified as an absolute moral law is another question based on sanctity of life. But your right in the limited sense theoretically evil doesn't exist. Ofcourse thats also an unnaceptable conclusion, since a group of 10, does that make a society etc. ?


 
marsteller Posted: Wed Mar 3 15:41:34 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i don't believe that there is any absolute concept of good or evil, or that anything can be fairly classified as such


 
giggle Posted: Wed Mar 3 16:30:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I don't think we would have any concept of good or evil if there were no absolute good and absolute evil.
How would we know? Yes, it may be determined by society to some extent, but there are obviously people who do so called 'evil' things ie. murder, and appear to have no moral problem with it. Why, then are their actions evil? Who says so? They do not think so and they are as much a part of society as the so called 'good' person. So is it the majority vote that decides what is evil and what is not? The problem with this theory is that anything is acceptable, so long as a large number agree. E.g. ‘The vast majority of the people heartily approved and joined in the genocide’.
I don't think it is possible to make standards for ourselves without having the example of extreme right and wrong.
Here's a nice quote:
“If I am fashioned by God for his purpose, then I need to know Him and know that purpose for which I have been made, for out of that purpose is born my sense of right and wrong.” Can man live without God? Ravi Zacharias



 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Mar 3 16:55:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  marsteller said:
>i don't believe that there is any absolute concept of good or evil, or that anything can be fairly classified as such.

that's because you've never been married.
LOL


 
marsteller Posted: Wed Mar 3 17:04:41 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  "Can man live without God?" is there really a God? just one, or many? i think the most interesting thing about the concept of god or religion is that no matter what the truth is, if there is any truth at all, the majority of the people on the planet are going to be wrong in their beliefs. unless there is no absolute truth, like there is no absolute good or evil


 
marsteller Posted: Wed Mar 3 17:05:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  blast...i gotta go to class....back later to discuss some more


 
giggle Posted: Wed Mar 3 17:10:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  marsteller said:
>"Can man live without God?" is there really a God? just one, or many? i think the most interesting thing about the concept of god or religion is that no matter what the truth is, if there is any truth at all, the majority of the people on the planet are going to be wrong in their beliefs. unless there is no absolute truth, like there is no absolute good or evil


...eh?
So it's most likely that you'll be wrong then... Like the rest of us.

Perhaps nothing exists.





 
Malik Posted: Wed Mar 3 17:45:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Reality is an illusion; lunchtime doubly so.

And that was a lowball, Addison. My people may be weird looking, but psycho-kinetic globs are people too!


 
addi Posted: Wed Mar 3 17:50:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Malik said:

>And that was a lowball, Addison. My people may be weird looking, but psycho-kinetic globs are people too!

Right you are, Mate!

Addi's personal journal notes: Don't compliment Malik. He gets very weird about it.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Mar 3 18:03:56 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  humans can conceive of good and evil w/ out God.

people wrote the bible. it was not god speaking to moses and the whole 10 commandment shit that brought morals to the world, it was philosphers.

plato's republic is all about the good and describing many views later taken up by christianity.

reason grants us respect for our own lives and in turn, for other people's lives.


 
Malik Posted: Wed Mar 3 18:58:40 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>humans can conceive of good and evil w/ out God.

Hmmmm. I think that we can have an idea of right and wrong without God, but the concept of Good and Evil is a religous one. Good is something that comes from, conforms to, does not violate, etc. the Authority. Evil is something that does not conform to, violates, etc. the anti-Authority.

>people wrote the bible. it was not god speaking to moses and the whole 10 commandment shit that brought morals to the world, it was philosphers

Maybe Moses was a philosopher, and the ten commandments was his social contract? And maybe the ten commandments were not the point where morality was into the world, but it (and the entire books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus as well) did establish a code of laws for the Hebrews which included not only morality, but social welfare and cleanliness as well.

>plato's republic is all about the good and describing many views later taken up by christianity.

And, while plato was before christianity, it was not before all the other religions that defined good and evil. The concept of good first came into the world when a religion was formed, and humans characterized themselves with their god, and evil first came into the world when humand characterized their enemies with being against their god. That wasn't with Plato, that wasn't with Jesus, that wasn't with anybody that we probably know. And it probably happened multiple times, because cultures were not connected that far back in time.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Mar 3 20:01:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  you actually believe that there was no concept of good and evil before religion ?
where do you get this stuff?


 
zander83 Posted: Wed Mar 3 20:37:44 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Always been a concept of good and evil... and God is not necessary to develop an ethical system. The only thing needed was, as asswipe so aptly said "reason grants us respect for our own lives and in turn, for other people's lives". This can be developed in many ways. Plato developed from his basic epistemelogical theory of the form. Of course to realy do any philosophizing(that reminds me anyone ever read Voltaire's Candide? hehe) we have to at least start from our the knowledge that you yourself exist, else its pointless. However, to respond to hif, religion is as old as most societies and it is arguable that to a certain extent, in one form or another, religion has been around as long as ethics. Which came first is a chicken-egg question.


 
Malik Posted: Wed Mar 3 22:00:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  What I was saying is that good/evil and right/wrong are different concepts. Good/evil is a theistic concept, based on whether certain deities favor or scorn you. Right/wrong, however, can come based on atheistic reasoning. However, right/wrong WAS good/evil in every theist or spiritual society, and so the two are closely linked, and probably came about at the same time. But as zander says, it's a chicken-egg question. Did a sense of morality spawn a religion, or did religion spawn a sense of right and wrong?

I agree with you when you say that God is not necessary to develop an ethical system; however, It (or He or whatever) is necessary to develop a sense of good and evil. An atheist society can have a sense of right and wrong, but not good vs. evil, because it is a purely theistic concept.


 
Cytherean Posted: Wed Mar 3 22:16:50 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Now let us suppose, from a Christian perspective, that all things in fact serve the great metaphysical absolute defined as GOOD, and that all evil, in its many forms, is bound to the purpose of God. Do not tyrrany, war, murder, even the machinations of the prince of darkness himself define GOOD all that much more glaringly? The contrast that is generated by evil being so violently prevalent in our world, only makes GOOD that much more important and yearned for by anguished souls. The further these two absolutes (GOOD, and EVIL) are diametrically opposed, the more redemptive GOOD becomes, so in essence, everything is good, EVERYTHING serves the will of good, since logically speaking good is the only end.


 
addi Posted: Wed Mar 3 22:54:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  the above is precisely why I did not pursue a graduate degree in philosophy.
It makes sense. It follows the rules of logic. It's deep. It's hard to follow. It must be true!
You start getting to the point with some of these arguments that your feet leave the ground and you don't even realize it. The further and deeper you go into the metaphysical make up of beauty, truth, god, or in this case, good and evil, the more you become suseptable to separating yourself from what you were origonaly seeking to find.
In other words it begins to lose any relavance to the practical. It sounds real good, it looks real pretty, but it has lost it's substance somewhere along the way, lost in the complex and convaluted verbage meant to free it. You become a slave to the language, instead of making the language work for you. I know. I've seen it happen at lectures and conferences. It's Wittgensteinian semantic language games gone amuk.
I love to question, to think, to analyze, but only to a point. What is good? What is evil? I'll ask the neighbor kid tomorrow and probably get a pretty straight forward answer that I can live by.


 
Dancer Posted: Thu Mar 4 04:00:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i'd like to point out that not all animals kill for survival, some kill when provoked. If that's the case, don't they also have free will? If they do have free will , then Animals also = evil. I say evil or not, depends on how you control the id in yourself. Of cos there must be evil to reflect the good in us, there must be differences to know the black from white. I prefer to see humans = good generally, like i prefer to call my coffee half filled. Still i wouldn't say human=evil. they do evil only when there's a given set of circumstances that made them do it. generally, we don't see people walking on the street, start kicking one another, or ganging up to mug the old lady.


 
Dancer Posted: Thu Mar 4 04:04:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And to me, my definition of evil = doing great harms to people.


 
antartica Posted: Thu Mar 4 07:41:06 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i'm bored... who's up for calvin ball!


 
Iamjustdancing. Posted: Thu Mar 4 09:05:15 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  antartica said:
>i'm bored... who's up for calvin ball!

GREAT! ok i start with Q points and the invisible stick... !


 
antartica Posted: Thu Mar 4 11:11:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Cytherean said:
>Now let us suppose, from a Christian perspective....

taking that example. then was the Crusades GOOD or BAD? like who gave the Crusaders the "right" to erradicate the infedels? and so called being done in the name of god does that absolve them of the blood shed?

and with so many other examples already out in...

be it theological or human created isn't it all about a tension of opposites keeping a very sensitive balance. one will be meaningless without the other.

if the whole world was say, onli "GOOD", murderers, rapists, war mongers, theives, etc... do not exsist. would we living in this world be able to say that we're good?


 
Cytherean Posted: Thu Mar 4 21:25:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Addison said
>> What is good? What is evil? I'll ask the neighbor kid tomorrow and probably get a pretty straight forward answer that I can live by.

That's damn right. Simplicity can very well be the answer. Let us not muddle the truth with detail, intricacy, quantum philosophy. Let's feel the truth, see it in the way we live our lives, see it in the beauty of nature, or the face of our lovers. Human beings are weak creatures, our minds cannot grasp truth, the only thing that can come close to perceiving it is our spirits, and that's what we should strive for.


 
Cytherean Posted: Thu Mar 4 21:32:46 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  antartica said:

>taking that example. then was the Crusades GOOD or BAD? like who gave the Crusaders the "right" to erradicate the infedels? >and with so many other examples already out in...

My answer wil be blunt. Yes, the Crusades were good, so was WWII, so was the 30 Years War, so was Vietnam, so was the Civil War, you know why? Because they only made GOOD make much more sense. They defined what GOOD is even more clearly.

you said:
> would we living in this world be able to say that we're good?

Of course we aren't good. I'm not talking about us as human beings, we are vile, repugnant sinners, flawed and doomed. God is GOOD, I'm referring to the divine, the quintessential good that binds the universe. God is GOOD and everything serves the purpose of GOOD in the galaxy, be it evil or not so evil.


 
iggy Posted: Thu Mar 4 22:03:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  the victors are the ones that write history.

imagine how the world would be if nazi germany actually won and how history would be like.




 
Malik Posted: Thu Mar 4 22:06:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Cytherean said:

>My answer wil be blunt. Yes, the Crusades were good, so was WWII, so was the 30 Years War, so was Vietnam, so was the Civil War, you know why? Because they only made GOOD make much more sense. They defined what GOOD is even more clearly.

*blinks*
They defined what good was clearer? So God is on NATO and the Allies side? During the cold war, God was crossing his fingers hoping that we would develop the next generation of nuclear weapons before the soviets? God has a little bald eagle hovering above his throne and enjoys burgers and a nice game of baseball? I really don't belive that. Furthermore, since I belive that it's really absurd to assume that the Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Jewish God supports power being shifted to the side of the United States.

>God is GOOD and everything serves the purpose of GOOD in the galaxy, be it evil or not so evil.

Because good always conquers evil?




 
Dancer Posted: Fri Mar 5 02:25:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Cytherean said:
>antartica said:
>
>>taking that example. then was the Crusades GOOD or BAD? like who gave the Crusaders the "right" to erradicate the infedels? >and with so many other examples already out in...
>
>My answer wil be blunt. Yes, the Crusades were good, so was WWII, so was the 30 Years War, so was Vietnam, so was the Civil War, you know why? Because they only made GOOD make much more sense. They defined what GOOD is even more clearly.
>

oh my.. i have to disagree on this one, no matter how i see it, WWII is definately bad! bad! bad! millions of lives killed without a purpose.. and we don't need a tragedy to define good.


 
addi Posted: Fri Mar 5 07:04:24 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Cytherean said:

>My answer wil be blunt. Yes, the Crusades were good, so was WWII, so was the 30 Years War, so was Vietnam, so was the Civil War, you know why? Because they only made GOOD make much more sense. They defined what GOOD is even more clearly.

Everybody sing:
What the world needs now is evil, pure evil
It's the only thing that there's just too little of...

I think you need to record what you wrote on to a tape player, rewind it, and then play it back so you can hear your words. Then look into a mirror and slap your face real hard. Now go out and play with your friends, and be happy.

Dancer I like the simplicity of your outlook : )


 
antartica Posted: Fri Mar 5 07:32:22 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Cytherean said:
>My answer wil be blunt. Yes, the Crusades were good, so was WWII, .. .. ..

so in the essence that war is good coz it magnifies good into GOOD... and we'd know it's worth better yadah yadah yadah...

so along those same lines, the recent Iraqi war (please don't brind up the silly WMD issue, just taking it as an example of the most recent war) has to be good. coz now that things are supposedly "over" there are suicide bombers going all over blowing and soldiers they can get to to bits, most of the time missing them and inflicting their damage on the regular civilian crowd, men, women and children alike...

yeah! i gotta say... that's good... NO
in fact that's DAMN GOOD!
yup. it's good that these people are becoming wall paper... GOOD for them! wow! wish i was there too to partake of this "GOOD"

you have been officially given the Resistance salute *chanz this one's for you eh ;)*

....................../´¯/)
....................,/¯../
.................../..../
............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
..........................'.../
..........''............. _.·´
..........................(
...............................


 



[ Reply to this thread ] [ Start new thread ]