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Denial & Logic
DanSRose Posted: Fri Mar 12 18:18:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Let it be clear that whatever your politcal views, I've been inpressed by the level of the logical discourse that goes on here especially with controversal topics. Also let me explain that I'm taking three classes at once on the Holocaust and it's heavily on my brain.

What is your take on Holocaust denial and the arguements that go with them? Are all deniers (sp?) are Antisemetic, just their arguments, or do they have an actual argument?
For me, it's stinging hate. Nothing more.


 
FN Posted: Sat Mar 13 02:54:47 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I guess there are several kinds of people who deny it; the ones who know it happened but don't want it to be known by the world and the ones who also know it happened but don't want to live with the fact that their countrymen or whatever did such a thing.


Japan did some fucked up shit to china and korea as well but it seems like that never happened, it isn't even mentioned in official japanese history books


 
webmaster Posted: Sat Mar 13 03:36:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Not quite true, Christophe.

There is a common misunderstanding when people discuss the holocaust and the denials.

Holocaust deniers do not deny that the holocaust happened, that antisemitism was rampant, and with that, the confiscation of property, concentration camps etc etc.

Holocaust deniers stand is:

1. There was no Nazi policy to exterminita European Jewry.

2. The main causes of death were disease and starvation, caused primarily by Allied destruction of German supply lines. Force labour accounted for a very small percentage of deaths, gas chambers were used only for delousing and crematoria were used only to dispose of bodies.

3. Between 300,000 to 2 million Jews died, rather than five to six million.


 
DaveHill Posted: Sat Mar 13 04:23:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I can see some logic in point 2, with most of the administration having been destroyed when the allies advanced, even though i do not support this notion.
Point 1 is not true, transcripts of the Wannsee Conference in 1943 (?) clearly show Himmler, Hitler & consorts planned to wipe out the entire Jew race.
Point 3 : how do they explain the missing 3-4 million? I'm curious...


 
DaveHill Posted: Sat Mar 13 04:24:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Oh, and to reply to thepoint in this topic :
The denial of the Holocaust is, in my point of view, an act not supported by evidence, and therefore illogical and primarily based on ignorance and hate.


 
DanSRose Posted: Sat Mar 13 04:49:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:
>Holocaust deniers stand is: ----

ah. I should have started with a definition.

Oh Great And Powerful Webmaster,
Isn't Point 2 a secondary argument? That the deaths of the Holocaust were simply causalties of war? Still, it's a failed argument.



 
FN Posted: Sat Mar 13 05:20:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:
>Not quite true, Christophe.

my mistake


 
FN Posted: Sat Mar 13 05:27:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Again, I still want to make it clear that the germans aren't the only ones who did stuff like this.

Refering to (amongst others) japan again.



You can nag all you want about nazis and stuff, but there are reasons behind it why hitler was able to gain so much power, it's not the the german people just like going to war


 
mat_j Posted: Sat Mar 13 05:36:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>Japan did some fucked up shit to china and korea as well but it seems like that never happened, it isn't even mentioned in official japanese history books

that parts right though, in the rape of Nanking Japanese Imperial soldiers raped some 20,000 women aged from 10-70 and executed 200,000 men


 
dan632 Posted: Sat Mar 13 10:26:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i'm kinda lost here, what is holocaust denial? is it just jews who are saying the holocaust wasn't as bad as what it really was? i know about hitler, fuehrer(spelling mistake?) and the SS and so on. just not holocaust denial


 
dan632 Posted: Sat Mar 13 10:28:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  RE: DaveHill
>Sat Mar 12 09:22:56 2004 (1st Post)

JQ, i don't think was retelling the holocaust in his view but in the denier's view, saying what they say, etc.


 
webmaster Posted: Sat Mar 13 15:18:46 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The denials have been debunked, debunked and debunked.

Numerous first person accounts.

Physical and documentary evidence corroborate that gas chambers and crematoria were, indeed, used as methods of extermination. However, this side-steps the main issue. Murder is murder, be it by gas chamber or not. In occupied Soviet territories, the Nazis killed about 1.5 million Jews by means other than gassing.

The number of Jews killed was derived from taking figures of the number of Jews living before and after war. The initial Jewish population was 9,796,840, and it is estimated that between 5,596,029 to 5,860,129 were killed.

And lastly (and perhaps most importantly), we have to consider the credibility of the deniers. Some of the most prominent deniers like Mark Weber and David Irving have been investigated and proven that they have second agendas and/or were anti-semitic in the first place.


 
DanSRose Posted: Sat Mar 13 16:19:30 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  webmaster said:
>The denials have been debunked, debunked and debunked.

People can be stupid and ignore facts. I've read Irving and, yeah, he' stupid.

>Numerous first person accounts.
There was a woman who came out of Auschwitz and during an interview, she swore that 3 smokestacks were destroyed during the brief uprising there. Physical evidence only shows one was destroyed. This has been used by deniers to show that people cannot be trusted and all witnessed testimony must thrown as false.
They do not take into account the idea of Trauma or even meaning and interpretation. To see the death stacks explode before your eyes brings hope back from the Abyss.

>And lastly (and perhaps most importantly), we have to consider the credibility of the deniers.
They have little to no credit in the academic world.


 
simonvii Posted: Sat Mar 13 20:28:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  yeah so the only thing that bothers me about the holocaust is when people think it was the first crime agains jews...earlier on in this post someone said that holocaust deniers believe that antisemitism was rampant, well im not a holocaust denier but i do know that jews have been targets all throughout history, and there are recorded outbreaks of mass jewish discrimination all the way back from present day to the 1500s and back to the bible days...shoot the majority of the old testament is about jewish captivity


 
marsteller Posted: Sat Mar 13 22:21:45 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  simonvii said:
>jews have been targets all throughout history

so has pretty much every other group.


 
DanSRose Posted: Sun Mar 14 02:37:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The thing is, the thing that's different, that the Holocaust was not about prejugdice or persecution. It was the order for the elimination of an entire race of people. Not just the burning of books, or forced conversions, or riots in the streets. A government, in an assembly line fashion, with the aid of most of the society (whether it was wanted or fear induced shouldn't an issue as it was done) processed and used the most sophisticated science of the times to kill specific groups of people. All to make society 'pure'.

To get a better idea try this: picture a tall, tall barrell, lid fasten tight. You pry and pry, and when it finally opens, it tips over and spills its contents across the room. The contents are hundreds of pounds of shorn human hair, which was stored for later use. Use includes for being sewed for rope, mattresses (both stuffing and linens), drapes, tapestries, and other textiles.



 
FN Posted: Sun Mar 14 03:43:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>(whether it was wanted or fear induced shouldn't an issue as it was done)


I don't know.

I think it's simply stupid to say you wouldn't take part in stuff like that if you know if you wouldn't you and your family were going to take the fall for it.

I like to think I would be in the resistance in any kind of occupation, and knowing how well I can('t) handle forced authority I'd probably be, but you can never be sure of stuff like that untill you're in that kind of situation.



And in defence of the german people of that time, you should take the reasons for Hitler's rise to power into account.


 
simonvii Posted: Sun Mar 14 12:10:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>The thing is, the thing that's different, that the Holocaust was not about prejugdice or persecution. It was the order for the elimination of an entire race of people.

tru, tru
>


 
DanSRose Posted: Sun Mar 14 12:21:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Did you try it?

Christophe said:
>I don't know.

I never said I wouldn't. I was not talking about myself or if I would or wouldn't do.

Hitler's rise was marked by an economic crap hole and a general election. Why shouldn't bear some responsbility? They were the ones who ended being in the SS and being in the armies and running the concentration camps and leading prisoners on death marchs, etc.


 
FN Posted: Sun Mar 14 14:44:23 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  After WW I the german people, who had suffered just as much because of the war as any other country, were forced to pay the price for the rebuilding of the whole of europe on top of their own problems and massive inflation didn't really make things any better either.

And then there was Hitler telling the people what they wanted to hear in those desperate times, and ofcourse they voted for him. They were pissed off just as much as any other european country but for them the miserable circumstances of wartime just kept on going after the war had ended.

What do you expect people to do if they simply have no other choice?

It's like the situation with Cuba before and during the missile crisis, it's simply because there wasn't any other way than the 'bad' way.


It's not the guy in the streets who starts a war, it's the people on top, who are ofcourse (most of the time) elected by the same people in the street but sometimes it's because they don't see any other solution.

I'm not saying everything that happened is excused because of that, I'm just saying that you shouldn't ignore the reasons behind it either.


 
DanSRose Posted: Sun Mar 14 19:04:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  It was a guy in the street who ended up doing this, whether it was an order or not:
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery2/83714.htm

The man on the street was given the task of the mobile killing squad. The leaders cannot hold all the blame.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Mar 15 08:35:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  when you systematically murder 6 million men, women, and children, there is plenty of blame to go around, and anyone who knew and did nothing should share in the blame.


 



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