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Commie or capitalist?
Mesh Posted: Mon Mar 22 14:55:30 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Which one do you think is the best? Communism, or capitalism? Or perhaps, neither of them?


 
FN Posted: Mon Mar 22 14:57:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm a capitalist without any doubt.


 
libra Posted: Mon Mar 22 15:21:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm a capitalist...surprisingly enough. I'm not really for communism at all. I like socialism more, and am definitely for a capitalist society with some strong socialist values as well, but I can see how well capitalism caters towards human nature. I also believe that if people work harder, they should get more from it. I don't like exploitation or corruption though, and those are often byproducts of a capitalist society...but i guess they would be in any society, they're why communism doesn't really work anyway...

I'm a perfectionist, so no government can really make me happy...


 
addi Posted: Mon Mar 22 15:42:21 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>Which one do you think is the best? Communism, or capitalism, or pornalism? Or perhaps, none of them?

penguins tripping other penguins.

Always good to hear from you, mesh!

*i'll be a good boy and get serious later.


 
zander83 Posted: Mon Mar 22 16:21:50 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  capitalism for sure....


 
Archangel Posted: Mon Mar 22 16:28:25 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Does it matter? Thanks to Peak Oil we're all f'ed anyway, we should concentrate on depleting the world's beer reserves before it's too late.

Oh, Capitalism rules, but not the weenie kind we have in the states.


 
marsteller Posted: Mon Mar 22 16:40:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  in the real world, capitalism rocks. in theory, perfect communism would be sweet.


 
Malik Posted: Mon Mar 22 18:12:32 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I think that I know what I want better than the government does. Do they know that I would rather skimp on the clothes and shoes and get a nicer computer instead? With capitalism, I can work and get an amount of money, that I can spend however I want. If I want to get something extra that my monthly budget doesn't allow, I can go without some things, or work extra hours. With communism, I don't get to choose what products are more important to me. I work a set amount, and get a set amount.

Also, communism is the state ownership of everything. The elimination of private property. I just don't like that idea.

Libra, what aspects of socialism do you like?




 
libra Posted: Mon Mar 22 19:16:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Malik said:

>
>Libra, what aspects of socialism do you like?
>
>

Overall, I like the cooperative feeling behind it, like, we're all in it together rather than the me vs. you mindset that most Americans have. I'm not a competitive person, and I'm not really power-hungry nor do i have a huge desire to be super-rich, so socialism would work for me...but i realize that not everyone wants to live in a world like that. Some people like exploiting others and creating incredible class differences.

I think the U.S. should have socialized medicine, and i think there are other things that britain and canada and other countries are doing that the U.S. could pick up on...


 
marsteller Posted: Mon Mar 22 19:18:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  yeah, but if you check out canada's healthcare system, you'll notice that it often takes months to get to a doctor, and many terminal patients die before they ever see an examination room.


 
mat_j Posted: Mon Mar 22 19:50:19 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  marsteller said:
>yeah, but if you check out canada's healthcare system, you'll notice that it often takes months to get to a doctor, and many terminal patients die before they ever see an examination room.

That doesn't mean that they can't go private over there, trust me the NHS in Britain is amazing despite what people say about it. I wretch at the idea of doctors wondering about my insurance over saving my life


 
libra Posted: Mon Mar 22 19:51:31 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  marsteller said:
>yeah, but if you check out canada's healthcare system, you'll notice that it often takes months to get to a doctor, and many terminal patients die before they ever see an examination room.

Yea, I know nothing is perfect, but i bet just as many americans, probably more, can't afford to go to the doctor. I have a canadian friend that said the problem is that a lot of canada's doctors come down to the states cause they can make a whole lot of money here...


 
marsteller Posted: Mon Mar 22 19:52:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  yeah, that's what i'd do


 
antartica Posted: Mon Mar 22 19:55:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  marsteller said:
>in the real world, capitalism rocks. in theory, perfect communism would be sweet.

so true... if you could have "real" equality as is one of the ideals of perfect communism, there'd be no "classes" of society. but even in all socialist countries you still have a certain "upper class".

then again in theory everything is possible...




 
Malik Posted: Mon Mar 22 21:30:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  In theory, theory would be the same as reality...


 
simonvii Posted: Mon Mar 22 22:56:23 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i dont care much for government regardless- lets everybody just be nice to each other and share what we've got and we wouldnt have a problem...its all this "yeah so im a teenager with no job who owns 6 pairs of shoes and 3 different winter jackets and two closets full of clothes i never wear, while youre a single mother working two jobs and living with ur kids in a house roughly the size of my closets and are struggling to provide even one pair of shoes or one jacket or more than one outfit for your children to wear to school tomorrow" that makes this country so f*cked up...seriously what makes people think they deserve all this extra stuff when other people have nothing at all? it makes me want to piss all over them...............................................................but i digress, i think we should redistribute the wealth.....oh and DOWN WITH NEPOTISM


 
Iamjustdancing. Posted: Tue Mar 23 09:13:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  simonvii said:
>i dont care much for government regardless- lets everybody just be nice to each other and share what we've got and we wouldnt have a problem...its all this "yeah so im a teenager with no job who owns 6 pairs of shoes and 3 different winter jackets and two closets full of clothes i never wear, while youre a single mother working two jobs and living with ur kids in a house roughly the size of my closets and are struggling to provide even one pair of shoes or one jacket or more than one outfit for your children to wear to school tomorrow" that makes this country so f*cked up...seriously what makes people think they deserve all this extra stuff when other people have nothing at all? it makes me want to piss all over them...............................................................but i digress, i think we should redistribute the wealth.....oh and DOWN WITH NEPOTISM

But then the question is why is there a single mother with three kids... Sounds like her own damn fault to me, hence none of my business. Granted, i feel really bad for the children in the situation, and i believe we should as a society help them out, but there should be some way to stop single mothers having 32428903 kids to collect more welfare. What makes people think they should get extra sstuff when some people have nothing at all? How about they worked their asses off. You goto college, you get a degree, you have a skill, you work two jobs. You can have as much or as little disposable income as you want, as long as you work for it. Don't give me that shit that is i work harder than someone else, i should give them some of mine because they dont' have as much as me. That is utter and complete bullshit.

Communism can only work if nobody in the society is corrupt. If one person is corrupt, the theory is busted. So, unless its a 1 person communist society, its pretty much lame.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Mar 23 09:26:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  redistribution of wealth ?
Kiss my ass, I worked my ass off for what little I've got and so can you.
I pay too much in taxes already.


 
simonvii Posted: Tue Mar 23 12:20:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Iamjustdancing. said:

>But then the question is why is there a single mother with three kids... Sounds like her own damn fault to me, hence none of my business.

okay this is gonna sound harsh when i say that this statement is completely ignorant, but im just callin it as it is...i know just off the top of my head two families in this spot where it wasnt there fault -
1st family the father raped his little girl and went to prison, where he has no requirement to pay child support or any damages and also gets free health care, while the family (single mom and 4 children) are struggling to get health insurance and where the mom worked at one point 3 jobs, now 2, and still has to raise the family on less than $25,000 a year, no welfare...
2nd family lives in a trailor park after the father went crazy and killed the girl he was having an affair with and is now in prison, same type of situation, just 2 kids instead of 4...neither of these families had any control over their circumstances, they must deal with them, and any rich prick kid out there who was raised with two parents in a nice neighborhood and wasnt kicked in the playground for being poor can just not reply because like i said before you are ignorant...
What makes people think they should get extra sstuff when some people have nothing at all? How about they worked their asses off.

in my experience this is a load of bullshit, the amount of people that go to my college who have either never worked a job in their life or had one and worked like 12 hours a week astounds me, they go to school on their parents dime and spend $3000 or so dollars of this "disposable" income on spring break each year while other kids cant even eat, thats bullshit...



so anyway when i was in high school these kids who had two working parents making upwards of like $200,000 a year were like "im middle class" and i was like, "hmmm thats funny my single mom makes $28,000 a year and i thought we were middle class"....the wealth discrepency is bullshit, no one, i dont care what ur job is, should be making as much as some people make


 
simonvii Posted: Tue Mar 23 12:22:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Iamjustdancing. said:
What makes people think they should get extra sstuff when some people have nothing at all? How about they worked their asses off.

just clarifying my last post - this line was said by him, not me, i was replying to it


 
FN Posted: Tue Mar 23 12:27:37 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  You have no right to say how much money somebody can make.




It's not because you have more money than somebody else that you're obligated to share it.



I don't believe in sharing.


 
Adrian Posted: Tue Mar 23 13:16:43 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Vik-Shilt-Nach-No,

My god, capitalist whores, on site called Generaton Terrorists wht I'm ready to stand up and leave, capitalism never works, it is evil in allincarnations. Its stands to suppress the working man completely, it shoves propaganda down your neck in order for you to buy thing you don't want or need. It is the cause or world hunger.

I'm not particulary a communist but at least it believes in justice and a ultimately Eutopian society. I can't believe the attitudes of the people on this site, unbelievable.

Have you ever heard of the Manic Strret Preachers or even read George Orwells "1984".


 
casper Posted: Tue Mar 23 13:18:28 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Adrian said:
>Vik-Shilt-Nach-No,
>
>My god, capitalist whores, on site called Generaton Terrorists wht I'm ready to stand up and leave, capitalism never works, it is evil in allincarnations. Its stands to suppress the working man completely, it shoves propaganda down your neck in order for you to buy thing you don't want or need. It is the cause or world hunger.
>
>I'm not particulary a communist but at least it believes in justice and a ultimately Eutopian society. I can't believe the attitudes of the people on this site, unbelievable.
>
>Have you ever heard of the Manic Strret Preachers or even read George Orwells "1984".

it forces you to buy things you don't need or want? hey bubba just because you have no willpower to resist those infomercials at 3 am don't blame the system.


 
FN Posted: Tue Mar 23 13:27:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Poor people saying capitalism sucks is like ugly people saying true beauty is on the inside.



Tough luck, get over it.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Mar 23 13:28:42 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  simonvii said:
>Iamjustdancing. said:
>
>>But then the question is why is there a single mother with three kids... Sounds like her own damn fault to me, hence none of my business.
>
>okay this is gonna sound harsh when i say that this statement is completely ignorant, but im just callin it as it is...i know just off the top of my head two families in this spot where it wasnt there fault -
>1st family the father raped his little girl and went to prison, where he has no requirement to pay child support or any damages and also gets free health care, while the family (single mom and 4 children) are struggling to get health insurance and where the mom worked at one point 3 jobs, now 2, and still has to raise the family on less than $25,000 a year, no welfare...
>2nd family lives in a trailor park after the father went crazy and killed the girl he was having an affair with and is now in prison, same type of situation, just 2 kids instead of 4...neither of these families had any control over their circumstances, they must deal with them, and any rich prick kid out there who was raised with two parents in a nice neighborhood and wasnt kicked in the playground for being poor can just not reply because like i said before you are ignorant...
>
The situations you have described are truly tragic and not the norm for single moms, and that is what our social programs were meant for. The problem is, our well intentioned social programs are going to 2nd, and 3rd generation professional welfare recipients.
Still, there are programs that will help these families if they want it.

>in my experience this is a load of bullshit, the amount of people that go to my college who have either never worked a job in their life or had one and worked like 12 hours a week astounds me, they go to school on their parents dime and spend $3000 or so dollars of this "disposable" income on spring break each year while other kids cant even eat, thats bullshit...
>
And you don't think their parents worked hard for that "dime" ?
Life is not fair, get over it.
If you redistribute the wealth, then come back in a year, you will have the same situation, only worse. There is no incentive to work when that happens.
>
>so anyway when i was in high school these kids who had two working parents making upwards of like $200,000 a year were like "im middle class" and i was like, "hmmm thats funny my single mom makes $28,000 a year and i thought we were middle class"....the wealth discrepency is bullshit, no one, i dont care what ur job is, should be making as much as some people make

maybe you should spend a few weeks in my shoes and tell me I'm overpaid.
Or the doctor that is on call 24/7 after spending most of his life in school before going to work.
Or the engineer that worked his ass off to get his masters degree and then his doctorate so he could build the dams and bridges you see and use everyday.
Are you going to take their money and give to poor people and tell them it's justice ?
If you do that, where is their incentive to go to school and better themselves ?


 
Adrian Posted: Tue Mar 23 13:31:41 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  > hey bubba just because you have no willpower to resist those infomercials at 3 am don't blame the system.

I'm sorry are you a moron, perhaps American, you cannot resist the shite that thown at you, it tells in the music you like, the t.v. you wqatch you're all a part, that is hardly the point of this, if your're going to be ignorant enought to support capitalism, then see that the point streaches into your everyday lives, it absorbs anything that stands against it, with it's ultimate weapon "money". There is no equality in capitalism there is no justice in it, ita iams to subgiagte anything that stands agianst it for the purpose of power and power oinly, not you or any other voter.


 
FN Posted: Tue Mar 23 13:37:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  If you're stupid enough to think you aren't part of the capitalist system I pitty you.


Don't the manic street preachers sell CD's?

Didn't orwell make any money with his book?



I wonder man, well actually I don't because I know the answer, if you'd say the same thing if you were in charge of a big company or whatever.



Don't reply, if you say you would say the same thing you're lying.




You think I go to school to amuse myself? If everybody would be paid the same thing why would anybody do shit anymore?

That's the whole problem with communism.


It doesn't work, how many times do people have to go flat out on their faces before they understand something.


 
FN Posted: Tue Mar 23 13:38:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Poor people saying capitalism sucks is like ugly people saying true beauty is on the inside.
>
>
>
>Tough luck, get over it.




I stick by that, it's really all there is to say about it.


 
Adrian Posted: Tue Mar 23 13:56:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Of course I realise they make money what is this an argument over the ethics of individuals or over communism, any band such as Rage Against The Machine, System Of A Down, etc. i.e. any body with ideals by becoming popular or making money are by definition sell-out. And as for what you said about me, personally, of course I have no problen accecping money I won't change anything by refusing it. I am not arguing for communism I am arguing agianst 100% completly against capitalism. It all comes down to waht you consider the right form of government, I had a good 3 hour conversation on a similar subject with a friend at the week-end. Ultimately it came for me down to a dictatorship with of course me in charge, after all who would you pick to be in charge, you, I presume. The reason I despise capitalism is, that it is the form government that holds back and will always continue to hold back any form of progress for the financial gain of those already in power, i.e. for a starters, it holds back technology , it keeps people and entire countries down, holding back the world as awhole, I could continue, but I prefer to verbally argue points. If I was to define myself within a political genre it would be a hybris of socialism, anararchism, a dictatorship and 100% non-preejuce and internationalist.


 
Iamjustdancing. Posted: Tue Mar 23 14:05:23 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Adrian said:
>> hey bubba just because you have no willpower to resist those infomercials at 3 am don't blame the system.
>
>I'm sorry are you a moron, perhaps American, you cannot resist the shite that thown at you, it tells in the music you like, the t.v. you wqatch you're all a part, that is hardly the point of this, if your're going to be ignorant enought to support capitalism, then see that the point streaches into your everyday lives, it absorbs anything that stands against it, with it's ultimate weapon "money". There is no equality in capitalism there is no justice in it, ita iams to subgiagte anything that stands agianst it for the purpose of power and power oinly, not you or any other voter.

Let me guess you are an anarchist? Did you get all this information from listening to Rage against the machine? Do you think its Cool to buck the system? If you had any education at all you would know that capatalism is the best we got.(sure its not perfect but what is) .. Actually since you hate capatalism so much, tell me, what laws of economics should we abide by? Communism? Socialism? Anarchy? i mean since you got all the answers and all.


 
FN Posted: Tue Mar 23 14:11:31 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  If you were to have a dictatorship I think you could have worse options than me running it.


Bush for example.

Imagine that.


 
Adrian Posted: Tue Mar 23 14:13:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  If you actually read my above post before jumping in you'd see my thought on such bands and my proposed structure.


 
Christian Posted: Tue Mar 23 14:33:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  For peace we need one supreme ruler

:-)


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Mar 23 14:46:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Adrian said:
The reason I despise capitalism is, that it is the form government that holds back and will always continue to hold back any form of progress for the financial gain of those already in power, i.e. for a starters, it holds back technology , it keeps people and entire countries down, holding back the world as awhole, I could continue, but I prefer to verbally argue points. If I was to define myself within a political genre it would be a hybris of socialism, anararchism, a dictatorship and 100% non-preejuce and internationalist.

capitalism holds back technology ?
really ?
maybe you should take a look at the technological advancements of the last 100yrs and see where they originated. you might want to rethink that ignorant statement.
When your done with that, show me where any form of socialism or communism has ever worked as well as the capitalism of the 20th century.
You're right, capitalism does not always beget equality, but I will opt for freedom over equality every time.


 
Christian Posted: Tue Mar 23 14:50:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ...though I don't agree with "everything" Adrian says, ifihadahif, I do think we shouldn't "throw the baby out with the bath water" (eyikes!!!! there goes the kid!!! :-) )

Adrian's point about real progress being made stagnant or secondary to monetary gain, is a good one!


 
marsi Posted: Tue Mar 23 14:55:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Adrian said:
>I'm not particulary a communist but at least it believes in justice and a ultimately Eutopian society. I can't believe the attitudes of the people on this site, unbelievable.
>
>Have you ever heard of the Manic Strret Preachers or even read George Orwells "1984".

1984 is about communism.
Anybody dreaming of communism - read the Animal farm by the same author. It's a real eye-opener.
Is there any GTer who lived in communism/socialism or am I the only one.
If I have to choose between communism and capitalism, I choose capitalism.


 
Christian Posted: Tue Mar 23 14:57:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  no Marsi, I lived under a Central American Dictatorship most of my life 100% Marxist


 
Christian Posted: Tue Mar 23 14:58:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  but I am glad I do not, now... a far greater gap between the rich and the poor than here in Canada...


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Mar 23 15:05:34 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christian said:
>...though I don't agree with "everything" Adrian says, ifihadahif, I do think we shouldn't "throw the baby out with the bath water" (eyikes!!!! there goes the kid!!! :-) )
>
>Adrian's point about real progress being made stagnant or secondary to monetary gain, is a good one!

I disagree, capitalism is also the only system that will allow entrepeneurs to exist. It will also allow anyone who wants to put as much or as little as they want into research.
Neither of these exist in socialism or communism.


 
Christian Posted: Tue Mar 23 17:45:43 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  whatever makes you comfortable....(moving right along)...excuse me...uuuhhh excuse me...


 
mat_j Posted: Tue Mar 23 20:51:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Adrian said:
>Vik-Shilt-Nach-No,
>
>My god, capitalist whores, on site called Generaton Terrorists wht I'm ready to stand up and leave, capitalism never works, it is evil in allincarnations. Its stands to suppress the working man completely, it shoves propaganda down your neck in order for you to buy thing you don't want or need. It is the cause or world hunger.
>
>I'm not particulary a communist but at least it believes in justice and a ultimately Eutopian society. I can't believe the attitudes of the people on this site, unbelievable.
>
>Have you ever heard of the Manic Strret Preachers or even read George Orwells "1984".


jesus H. Christ, who is particularly commie nowadays anyway, I happen to have been a particularly big Manic Street Preachers fan, back in the day before the mediocre Know your enemy and the piss take that was the manics best of.

I have also read George Orwells 'nineteen eighty four' and his homage to Catalonia and his Animal farm and his collected essays and i hold him in high regard.

But talk about the stereotype of a screaming pinko, calm down Adrian express yourself clearly and for fucks sake don't mention the Anarchy word, saying Anarchy is a good idea is like saying you love fisting your own arse, it doesn't make you neither big nor clever (well it may make you big, but only in certain areas where you perhaps wouldn't want to be, if you know what i mean). The thing is a lot of people are socialist on this website, christ be thankful there are some plain old liberals here.

My main problem with what you are saying is

>I'm not particulary a communist but at least it believes in justice and a ultimately Eutopian society. I can't believe the attitudes of the people on this site, unbelievable.


then you go onto say

If I was to define myself within a political genre it would be a hybris of socialism, anararchism, a dictatorship and 100% non-preejuce and internationalist.


Then Dancing Dave (Who i never agreed with before) said

>Actually since you hate capatalism so much, tell me, what laws of economics should we abide by? Communism? Socialism? Anarchy? i mean since you got all the answers and all.

Then you argued back

>If you actually read my above post before jumping in you'd see my thought on such bands and my proposed structure.

You didn't actually explain any sort of a proposed structure for all we know you could be opposing a syndicated state capitalist
society policed by gang warfare and unrelenting in it's desire to conquer any part of the world in equal measure.

Or maybe i'm being to flipant here, I apologise for being so nasty.

As a matter of interest what other left wing authors are you into? Do you have favourite books that you could recomend?





 
Iamjustdancing. Posted: Wed Mar 24 10:07:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  >
>Then Dancing Dave (Who i never agreed with before) said
>


OOoooOOooOOOoo

(as i cherish this moment)


 
Adrian Posted: Wed Mar 24 13:18:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Adrian said:
> The reason I despise capitalism is, that it is the form government that holds back and will always continue to hold back any form of progress for the financial gain of those already in power, i.e. for a starters, it holds back technology , it keeps people and entire countries down, holding back the world as awhole, I could continue, but I prefer to verbally argue points. If I was to define myself within a political genre it would be a hybris of socialism, anararchism, a dictatorship and 100% non-preejuce and internationalist.
>
>capitalism holds back technology ?
>really ?
>maybe you should take a look at the technological advancements of the last 100yrs and see where they originated. you might want to rethink that ignorant statement.
>When your done with that, show me where any form of socialism or communism has ever worked as well as the capitalism of the 20th century.
>You're right, capitalism does not always beget equality, but I will opt for freedom over equality every time.


If you actually think capitalism isn't holding back technology then your just naive, the partical uses of any emerging technologyis being used solely with a military veiw point, you really thing that they aren't a 100 contengiences to replace oil as a fuel source, (I know your going to play the loss of jobs and decline of stock markets number here, but c'mon, the gain in the long run would more than make it up, at least a choice should be there). That s just one example, what people need is not important to them , the pace we hear about this technology is controled by the government to exact appropriate financial gain from existing technologies.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Mar 24 13:37:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Adrian said:
>If you actually think capitalism isn't holding back technology then your just naive, the partical uses of any emerging technologyis being used solely with a military veiw point, you really thing that they aren't a 100 contengiences to replace oil as a fuel source, (I know your going to play the loss of jobs and decline of stock markets number here, but c'mon, the gain in the long run would more than make it up, at least a choice should be there). That s just one example, what people need is not important to them , the pace we hear about this technology is controled by the government to exact appropriate financial gain from existing technologies.

Are you saying that there is another form of govt that has outproduced capitalism in the production of technology ?
Any loss of jobs will take care of itself in the market. That is not an issue. It doesn't matter whether or not any new technology is for military, since virtually anything with a civil use will also have a military use.
With capitalism any guy with a shop in his basement or garage is free to do what he wants. And the results speak for themselves. Just look at what has been accomplished in the last 50yrs.
More technological advancements in the last 50yrs than since the beginning of time.


 
Iamjustdancing. Posted: Wed Mar 24 13:42:20 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  where do you live adrian? Are you an American? Polock? German? Canadian? Russian?




 
Adrian Posted: Wed Mar 24 13:44:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ireland, actually. But let's not get into a slagging match based on the presumed experiences you think I have based on where I live.


 
Iamjustdancing. Posted: Wed Mar 24 13:54:30 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sooo what form of government is in ireland? Is it working? Where would you live in the current world that would best suit your political fancy?


 
Adrian Posted: Wed Mar 24 13:58:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  No, Law is seiously lacking in this country, millions are lost on gevernment corruption tribunals, as for your other question the answer with any logic and truth I can provide is, in my mind.


 
Malik Posted: Wed Mar 24 15:19:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christian said:
>For peace we need one supreme ruler
>
>:-)

Look at _Leviathan_, by Hobbes. He said that we should have one absolute entity, that is supreme and all powerful for social stability.

Mmmkay Adrian:
1) A site name Generation Terrorists has pro-capitalism people. Get the hell over it. It was named after an album, anyway (I'm pretty sure).

You say that capitalism doesn't work. Capitalism does work, although we could argue over what the defination of "working" is. Cold war, capitalism vs. communism happened, and communism collapsed. Both countries were trying to produce the most industry, and the U.S. won.

You say it is evil in all incarnations, eh? Well, so is humanity. But it is not capitalism that is evil, it simpally allows for an expression of human will. If a benevolent person (take Carnagie for example) is in control of a buisness, then that person will do benevolent things with his or her money. Likewise, if someone who wishes to do ill succedes in capitalism, they will do ill. It's the same in anarchy: someone builds up muscles and weapons and is good, they might use their power to defend others. Someone builds up muscles and weapons and is ill, then they might use their power to hurt others.

You say it stands to suppress the working man completely. In the early 20th century and before, I would have agreed with you. But workers have created unions and labor organizations, to check the power of the corporation. It's a balance.

You say it shoves propaganda down your neck in order for you to buy the things you don't want or need. First off, propaganda would be untrue political advertisements, (and, due to the darwinian nature of capitalism, any station that kept showing blatent propaganda would lose market share), and the advertising it does show isn't shoved down your neck. You don't have to watch television commericals, or the tv at all. I watch one hour of actual TV (that I actually pay attention to; I have the simpsons on while I work in the afternoon), I don't read the billboard signs while driving, I listen to NPR, which has no commericals. And I don't like people who are slaves to pop-culture, but in communism, people are even more slaves to the party. And

You say it is the cause for world hunger. Not really. We've got plenty of food here, and that should be all we care about (I'm an isolationist, can't ya tell?). I'm guessing that your argument would be that with capitalism, goods are sold at high prices, and poor countries cannot afford it. Well, most world hunger is political, where a certain country has the resources, but will not sell it at any price.

You say that at least communism tries to achieve a utopia. I think that's a bad part about communism. Utopia, as defined, means "no place", an unattainable state of paradise. It's like trying to get that star cheerleader; it's not going to happen, and you're only going to get hurt.

You say there is no equality in capitalism. There is no equality in anarchy, which you preach. Furthermore, there is no equality in life. Certain people are bigger, faster, stronger, more perceptive, smarter, and luckier than others. Should be hold everyone to the lowest common denominator? We are all not little snowflakes, each our own individual, but the same miniscule size with no function but to exist in a large, cohesive ball. Get over it.

Ideal government as being a hybrid of socialism and anarchism with a dictatorship? Anarchism is no government, and socialism is a government giving everybody according to their deeds, seems like they would contradict. And how do you know that your dictatorship, which is 100% un-prejudiced isn't 100% un-prejudiced to other people?



 
FN Posted: Wed Mar 24 15:45:30 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  If anarchy ever breaks out I'm taking over with gang of my disciples.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Mar 24 16:40:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>
>Are you saying that there is another form of govt that has outproduced capitalism in the production of technology ?
>Any loss of jobs will take care of itself in the market. That is not an issue. It doesn't matter whether or not any new technology is for military, since virtually anything with a civil use will also have a military use.
>With capitalism any guy with a shop in his basement or garage is free to do what he wants. And the results speak for themselves. Just look at what has been accomplished in the last 50yrs.
>More technological advancements in the last 50yrs than since the beginning of time.

capitalism creates slaves to society. we care more about what others think of us than we care about ourselves. this causes us to work our ass off at jobs, which we don't enjoy, in order to come home, taxi around the kids, go to bed at about 11, get 5 hours of sleep, wake up and repeat the process.

the demand for luxury, a huge percentage of most people's incomes, buys us big screen televisions and random other toys that help us forget about life.

how much of the technological advances that capitalism has created actually makes life better? most of 'em just create things to talk about.

down w/ the system!


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Mar 24 16:45:59 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>>capitalism creates slaves to society. we care more about what others think of us than we care about ourselves. this causes us to work our ass off at jobs, which we don't enjoy, in order to come home, taxi around the kids, go to bed at about 11, get 5 hours of sleep, wake up and repeat the process.
>
maybe for some people, there is truth to what you say, but not for all. I think you are talking about weak-minded people.

>the demand for luxury, a huge percentage of most people's incomes, buys us big screen televisions and random other toys that help us forget about life.
>
>how much of the technological advances that capitalism has created actually makes life better? most of 'em just create things to talk about.
>
that's a completely different topic. we were discussing whether or not capitalism sifles technology.
what is your view on that ?




 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Mar 24 17:54:34 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>maybe for some people, there is truth to what you say, but not for all. I think you are talking about weak-minded people.
>

under capitalism, all people are weak-minded people. we work, WHY?! why do we bust our asses 5+ days a week to buy shit we don't need?


>we were discussing whether or not capitalism sifles technology.
>what is your view on that ?

capitalism certainly makes huge technological developments but they're all pointless outside of medicine(which the research of is primarily funded by the government anyway) the reason why we've made such huge developments is the problem i see w/ capitalism. it's a monster that, the more you feed it, the more it grows and the more it eats. it demands so much out of us, is the return worth it?



 
Malik Posted: Wed Mar 24 18:38:43 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  You could argue that humans are monsters. After all, the more you feed it, the more it grows. And the more it grows, the more it eats...

We don't need many of the things we buy, but we have more luxaries. If you don't want to bust your ass, you don't have to. But you _can_ if you want to. That's the point.




 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Mar 24 18:41:06 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>>under capitalism, all people are weak-minded people. we work, WHY?! why do we bust our asses 5+ days a week to buy shit we don't need?
>
So what do we really need, other than food and water ?

>>we were discussing whether or not capitalism sifles technology.
>>what is your view on that ?
>
>capitalism certainly makes huge technological developments but they're all pointless outside of medicine(which the research of is primarily funded by the government anyway) the reason why we've made such huge developments is the problem i see w/ capitalism. it's a monster that, the more you feed it, the more it grows and the more it eats. it demands so much out of us, is the return worth it?
>
Yeah, I think it's worth it and certainly better than any alternative that's been tried so far.
So you think the Wright Brothers invention was pointless ? Or Edison or Bell, or Ford ?


 
Kira Posted: Wed Mar 24 19:38:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>
>
>capitalism certainly makes huge technological developments but they're all pointless outside of medicine(which the research of is primarily funded by the government anyway)

Government is not the magical money tree, they get all their money from those people who busted their asses for it.

Why should we live the simple life? Because it's better? I think it would be incredibly dull and stifling. You say medicine is the only worthwhile thing we've advanced in--we use medicine to live longer, but what's the point in that if our lives aren't even interesting, maybe even exicting?


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Mar 24 21:24:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>Government is not the magical money tree, they get all their money from those people who busted their asses for it.
>

in a true capitalist economy the government does not use the people's money. in a true capitalist society doctors would be payed based on their demand in society. big break throughs = mucho money, while those w/ out the will/luck/brains = not much money.

>Why should we live the simple life? Because it's better? I think it would be incredibly dull and stifling. You say medicine is the only worthwhile thing we've advanced in--we use medicine to live longer, but what's the point in that if our lives aren't even interesting, maybe even exicting?

this coming from a person who recently said a reason to enjoy life is key lime pie? i said up ahead that one of the lame benefits of all this shit is to give people something to talk about, but boredom is not a good reason to have a capitalist society. on the same argument, if people are bored they can persue interests, rather than just persue money.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Mar 24 21:29:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>>
>So what do we really need, other than food and water ?

we need the earth and its inhabitants to play with.

>Yeah, I think it's worth it and certainly better than any alternative that's been tried so far.
>So you think the Wright Brothers invention was pointless ? Or Edison or Bell, or Ford ?

they are helpful in making life more simple. possibly connected to why some people have such boring lives.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Mar 24 21:33:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Malik said:
>You could argue that humans are monsters. After all, the more you feed it, the more it grows. And the more it grows, the more it eats...
>

wow, sup ambiguity.

>We don't need many of the things we buy, but we have more luxaries. If you don't want to bust your ass, you don't have to. But you _can_ if you want to. That's the point.
>

but we have no choice but to follow the system. what would your grandparents say if you tell them you're going to be an actor or an artist?


 
dan632 Posted: Thu Mar 25 02:01:22 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  daniel doesn't know the difference


 
mat_j Posted: Thu Mar 25 05:09:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Iamjustdancing. said:
>>
>>Then Dancing Dave (Who i never agreed with before) said
>>
>
>
>OOoooOOooOOOoo
>
>(as i cherish this moment)

OOoooOOooOOOoo

you clever boots


 
mat_j Posted: Thu Mar 25 05:12:36 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  dan632 said:
>daniel doesn't know the difference

(Pats Dan on the head never) mind son (hands him a bottle of Jack Daniels) go and drink this, This'll tell you everything you need to know


 
dan632 Posted: Thu Mar 25 05:16:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ooooh JD! i like JD!


 
dan632 Posted: Thu Mar 25 05:23:41 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  oh yeah, jack lives here

http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/dan632/jackdaniels.jpg>


 
dan632 Posted: Thu Mar 25 05:25:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  let's try that a different then

[IMG]http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/dan632/jackdaniels.jpg[/IMG]


 
dan632 Posted: Thu Mar 25 05:26:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  oh for fuck's sake i give up, i can't fucking get it, fucking stupid fucking me, fuck fuck FUCK!!
NE1 know how to get pics to show up?


 
Christian Posted: Thu Mar 25 08:45:32 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I "still" say one supreme ruler (I'll have a side salad with that, too, please) :-)


 
Kira Posted: Thu Mar 25 13:24:45 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>Sailovzi said:
>>
>
>in a true capitalist economy the government does not use the people's money. in a true capitalist society doctors would be payed based on their demand in society. big break throughs = mucho money, while those w/ out the will/luck/brains = not much money.
>

I'm not sure I see your point here, or how it's even negative--so the best/smartest doctors and researchers succeed and prosper (thereby advancing the prosperity of others) while the lazy/less smart doctors are stuck in family practice or cleaning floors. That only makes good sense to me.

And it does not refute what I was trying to get across--that the advancement of medicine is ultimately a result of people's hard work and their desire for *more,* without which the government would have nothing to take from them to in turn deal out to researchers. Government does not provide or produce anynthing, it's just a middleman.

>>You say medicine is the only worthwhile thing we've advanced in--we use medicine to live longer, but what's the point in that if our lives aren't even interesting, maybe even exciting?
>
>this coming from a person who recently said a reason to enjoy life is key lime pie?

I also said *moon-flights* were a reason to enjoy life.

Are you knockin' my pie?!

>i said up ahead that one of the lame benefits of all this shit is to give people something to talk about, but boredom is not a good reason to have a capitalist society.

It wouldn't be; capitalists invented boredom.

>on the same argument, if people are bored they can persue interests, rather than just persue money.

People's interests tend to require money.


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Mar 25 18:00:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>Asswipe said:
>>Sailovzi said:
>>>
>>
>>in a true capitalist economy the government does not use the people's money. in a true capitalist society doctors would be payed based on their demand in society. big break throughs = mucho money, while those w/ out the will/luck/brains = not much money.
>>
>
>I'm not sure I see your point here, or how it's even negative--so the best/smartest doctors and researchers succeed and prosper (thereby advancing the prosperity of others) while the lazy/less smart doctors are stuck in family practice or cleaning floors. That only makes good sense to me.

my point was just in saying that this capitalist form of medicine study is not the case in the US today since(i think) the government is in control of researching. it was refuting your point when you said it is the peoples funds, which it is, but the people are not choosing how it is being spent, so it's not capitalism.

a problem with true capitalist researching though, is if there is only one great researcher who makes a significant breakthrough, and is driven solely to make money, he would make a lot more if he keeps his methods secret.

while the breakthroughs are beneficial, and i said above they are one of the few worthwhile advantages to capitalism, they do not discount the many examples where people end up slaves to the system simply trying to support their family w/ trite pleasures.(see MTV cribs) half of the people trying to get in the field are all about money anyway. something like 50% of the kids i go to school w/ are bio majors looking to go to med school and they're greedy little shits.

>
>And it does not refute what I was trying to get across--that the advancement of medicine is ultimately a result of people's hard work and their desire for *more,* without which the government would have nothing to take from them to in turn deal out to researchers. Government does not provide or produce anynthing, it's just a middleman.

their desire for "more" what, is my problem. if it's a desire to promote life and have "more" happiness than grand. but if it's all about the cash reward, it's not a very noble of an interest.

>
>>>You say medicine is the only worthwhile thing we've advanced in--we use medicine to live longer, but what's the point in that if our lives aren't even interesting, maybe even exciting?
>>
>>this coming from a person who recently said a reason to enjoy life is key lime pie?
>
>I also said *moon-flights* were a reason to enjoy life.
>
>Are you knockin' my pie?!

absolutely not, i agree w/ you that people need to focus on the small things in life for enjoyment and not be obsessed with buying 10k dollar shoes, solid gold dildos, etc.

>
>>i said up ahead that one of the lame benefits of all this shit is to give people something to talk about, but boredom is not a good reason to have a capitalist society.
>
>It wouldn't be; capitalists invented boredom.

exactly.



 
marsteller Posted: Thu Mar 25 18:05:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  back off man...my solid gold dildo's one of the best investments i've ever made.


 



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