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Something went terribly wrong that day...
kurohyou Posted: Tue Apr 20 01:04:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I read an article in GQ this morning about the Columbine shootings which occured five years ago tomorrow. (4/20) It was an amazing visual article whose goal was to take you back to that day. And it did just that, to the point where I had to get my thoughts about it out of my head. Below is my journal entry for this evening. I don't know if anyone still cares, but I figured out today that I still do. (Pardon the typographical errors and grammatical errors)

Monday, April 19, 2004
Tomorrow it will have been five years. Five years since the shootings at Columbine High School which left 14 Students and 1 Teacher dead, and left part of our town lost and confused. On Friday night I found an article in Carrabba’s about how that event will never die in the minds of people in Colorado and how so many of the people here and who were involved are seeking absolution and salvation. I wasn’t able to finish the article that night so I picked up the magazine at the store today and finished it this morning. It was possibly one of the most memorable articles I have ever read. It was amazingly visual, it was fluid and understandable. It was poinient and direct. It took me back to that day five years ago, which was its purpose. And that nagging feeling I had that day five years ago came back, but this time it was different. It was the first time I cried in four years.

We have been spending the last five years trying to forget what happened. Forget that we could not understand what had happened, and forget that in the weeks and months after it happened, we were seeking answers. When the answers we seek don’t come we try to bury our pain quickly and quietly. We all wore around the blue and silver ribbons until they were worn out. We took them off when we felt that it was safe. When the media wasn’t bombarding us with what had happened every day. We were tired of hearing about it. We were tired of the media talking about nothing else. We were all there the day it happened, we were all there the days after. We were there the day they finally began removing the bodies, the day Danny Rorbaugh’s body was removed from the sidewalk outside the school. We were there for all of that. We were there for the weeks afterwards when the memorials around clement park were put up, the tons of flowers cards toys and prayers for the victims. We were there when they finally came down. We were all there. We wanted it to be over. We needed it be over. We wanted to wake and find it was all a bad dream. We wanted to belived that what we had seen had not really happened. We wanted to know that the world we lived in still made sense. We collected our “We are Columbine” bumper stickers, bought our “In Support of Columbine” T-shirts from King Soopers, and we ran out and got our “respect life” license plates to show that we were still thinking about it. But were we? We didn’t want to hear about it on the TV all the time. When was life going to move on? When? We waited for that day. The day we could safely say we could move on. That day came and went without any fanfare, more like a melancholy passing, you couldn’t pinpoint it, but it happened. It always does after a tragedy.

Kendra and I went down to the rally at the capital afterwards. It was an anti-gun rally. In the weeks following the attacks, people searched, some in vain, for answers. Unforchunatly for many, searching for answers also meant placing blame. Blame was placed everywhere, from the school administrators, to the police; from the parents to the killers, from k-mart to the gun industry. Blame was all over the map. Brian Rorbaugh, Danny's father, was one of the leaders. He was angry, he was viement, he was raging out of control--I thought. Here we were just a few weeks after, and he was on what looked like a campaign trail. He wore a button that had his sons picture on it. He and his entrouge carried signs that said “my son would want me to be here.” I didn’t understand that. I didn’t think that he had taken any time to grieve. I didn’t think that he had taken any time to remotely accept what had happened and then do something about it. I was very unnerved by him. He was loud, he was in your face, and he would not quit. He made people uncomfortable, and many, had come to the same conclusions that I had come to. That he was simply denying what had happened and was seeking a way around it. That he was not able to face this so he threw himself into this new found cause. I guess in retrospect he didn’t have time to grieve. Grieving comes when you are able to grasp something and understand it. How could one understand this?

Five years later I think the reason I didn’t like Brian wasn’t because of his attitude, hell what did I know. My son was only 6 months old at the time. I wasn’t nearly as attached to him as Brian was to Daniel. I didn’t like Brian and his message because he wouldn’t let us forget. I was among those people who wanted to forget. I mulled it over and over in my head. And I could not come up with an answer. I could not understand what had happened, why it happened, or how it could have been prevented. I hate conjecture after the fact. Its like shutting the barn door after the horse is out. After that it turns into nothing more than a blame game. A finger pointing fest which everyone is attempting to absolve themselves of any responsibility for the situation. The School administrators, the teachers, the parents, and the police, all the entities ,who everyone believed should have seen this coming and who were in the best position to stop it, all went on the defensive. Within a few days the reality of the situation hung like a fog over the city, but below the fog the war of words had begun. I wanted to forget. I didn’t want to get caught up in all the finger pointing and confusions. I didn’t want to hear anymore. Maybe for fear of something I didn’t know. Who knows why, but I now know that I wanted to forget.

Its funny, Columbine has national recognition now. You mention it anywhere it seems and people know what you are talking about. But the experience is different when you were here. A lot of my friends were not here when it happened. They came in from different states, where they had heard about it. But Columbine was about as distant to them as the Oklahoma City bombing was to me. You see the pictures on the news, but even then there is a sense of detachment from somewhere you have never been. Columbine holds meaning for those of us who were here, a meaning that many don’t understand. Columbine was a high school. We competed against them in track meets while I was in high school. My family and I lived in Jefferson County for a while, the county which Columbine resides in, and had we not moved, my youngest brother David, would have been at that school the day of those shootings. One of the kids who was killed was named Isaiah, my son's name is Isaiah, the connections are everwhere. Clement park, the site of the huge memorial, and where the kids fled to seek shelter of some sort when the bullets started flying, is a place I have been many times. I played football there with friends on weekends. I took a long lazy walk around that park with my mom one day and I see it every time I go to Southwest Plaza Mall. But prior to April 20, 1999, it was just another park north of another high school in Littleton. We paid about as much attention to it as we did any park or high school. But it was a place we all knew, a place we had all seen, and a place we were all connected to. A connection many of my friends I don’t think understand, because they can joke about what happned, and complain the one of the reasons Howard Stern was taken off the air in Denver was because he popped off about Columbine, they don't feel the same connection, and I don't expect them to. Now that park and that school carries a secret. It’s a constant reminder of what happened. Columbine High School is on the list of places people want to see when they come to Colorado to visit. There is no escaping what happened. There is only forgetting, and though you try, you can’t always forget.

Something went terribly wrong on that day and the weeks leading up to it, and probably in the years leading up to it. Two young men, slipped through the cracks. They were marginalized and degraded by a school society that chews up the weak and awkward, and leaves them lost and alone. It’s a tale as old as time. I went through it, people before me went through it and many after this went thru it and continue to go through it. What made them snap? What made them think that killing was the answer, and how did someone not see something? Hindsight it always easy to see the signs, but what went wrong that day? That has plagued my mind since it happened. I can forget now and then, but if it is mentioned I go back there, and that is were my passion lies. Why did this happen and how do we make sure it doesn’t happen again?

I get a lot of crap because I count 15 victims in this rampage, 12 student, 1 teacher and the two shooters. Whether you want to believe it or not they are also victims here. They are victims of themselves, and victims of neglect of some sort. Their parents lost children that day too. In the same manner as the other victims—violently, suddenly and without warning. When they woke up that day they probably expected to see their kids later in the day just as Brian expected to see Danny. There were 15 victims at Columbine, and we still search for who to blame.

We are all to blame for this to some degree. Maybe not directly, but indirectly I believe. If you’ve ever made fun of someone who is different than you, or teased anyone in school, you are to blame for this. I’m guilty, I know this and I think a lot of us know this, that I why its so hard to let go of. We want to search for empirical evidence that will clear our minds and absolve us of the part we feel we played – directly or indirectly. We blame music, we blame video games, we blame media, and schools. We blame everyone we can find, yet we never look inside ourselves. We don’t look and see what we may have done in any manner to provoke this. Have we ever stood idly by and watched someone get teased? Harassed? Made fun of? How many of us stand up against that? Not many. Some do. And they probably have the clearest consicious of us all, but even they know. We all know, we just try to forget. Its easier that way.

What is even scarier to us is that the parts that made these two killers, are within us. That rage, that hatred, than anger, and that feeling of isolation lives in everyone of us. I know its in me. And maybe that is why I feel connected to this though I wasn’t directly there. I see myself in them. I see myself on those surveillance tapes in the cafeteria. I see my self in their eyes and I hear myself in their words. Their words echo words that I myself wrote three years earlier, when I hated high school and wanted out. When I felt alone and isolated and that no one cared whether I was there or not and when I hated some of my classmates enough to want to see them dead, and to keep a hit list in my head. I hear myself in them, and I feel them within me. And that scares the shit out of me. Why was I not the one to unleash this on my classmates? What kept me from snapping? What keeps the hundreds of kids who are picked on every day from snapping and doing the same thing? And whats to say that one of our kids isn’t going to be the next one. I fear that my son could do that. He already has the makings of a social misfit. What if he is the next to do this? The evil that is responsible for this is within us all. I know its within me and it scares me because I see it. God I see it everytime I see the tapes or read the stories about Columbine, and I can’t figure out for the life of me why I’m here where I am, and not where they are. But I do have a profound sense of doing whatever I can to make sure it doesn't happen again.

There is so much more I could say, so much more that I feel. But the more that is said the less is understood, and the issues get confused with the facts and the deceptions. And we are all still left here wondering. Just what went wrong that day. We all have our pet theories, and I’m sure mine are not well received by some. I think the one thing that we need to be sure of is that we don’t forget, we don’t become complacent. That is hard in today’s world, but we must remember. We can’t forget. We owe it to those who died, not to forget.

Robert M. Cornell 4/19/04 10:43pm



 
marsteller Posted: Tue Apr 20 02:53:22 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  fuck it man, shit happens.


 
choke Posted: Tue Apr 20 17:01:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  This is probably the only post that ive read of this length without skipping bits. Remember the shootings, but remember we're all only human. Its good you can be this honest to yourself and i think its something that will benefit you in the future.


 
Archangel Posted: Tue Apr 20 22:47:22 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  A touching article until you identify the shooters as victims, they aren't, they're perpetrators. None of us are to blame, especially those of us that live 1000s of miles away, I was picked on as a kid and I did some picking, it's part of life, deal with it. There's no excuse for what they did and the world is better without them.


 
Leonidas Posted: Wed Apr 21 01:14:28 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  You don't believe in societal responsibility? I agree that neither you nor I had any direct influence on the events at Columbine. But every day callousness and lack of compassion creates the potential for another and another. Can their actions ever be justified? Of course not. But we can prevent another. If you seek only to punish those responsible, to blame them alone, instead of finding them and offering them another path, you do nothing to prevent it from happening again.


 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Apr 21 02:48:15 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And there it is.
A friend of Eric and Dylan's (more Dylan than Eric, as Eric threatened his and his family's lives a year earlier) wrote a wonderful book about the entire experience, being to end and after. It's called "No Easy Answers: The Truth Behind Death at Columbine" by Brooks Brown and Rob Merritt (Merritt's a journalism student who helped Brooks put it all together). Brooks knew Dylan since the age of 6 and grew up with, seeing how he became what he did.
You get to see how Dylan and Eric evolved.
I can't push this book enough. It's a must read.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 21 06:51:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Leonidas said:
>You don't believe in societal responsibility?


Once more:

There can be no more myth of “equality” for all—it only translates to “mediocrity” and supports the weak at the expense of the strong. Water must be allowed to seek its own level without interference from apologists for incompetence. No one should be protected from the effects of his own stupidity.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 21 07:06:41 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Leonidas said:
>>You don't believe in societal responsibility?
>
>
>Once more:
>
>There can be no more myth of “equality” for all—it only translates to “mediocrity” and supports the weak at the expense of the strong. Water must be allowed to seek its own level without interference from apologists for incompetence. No one should be protected from the effects of his own stupidity.
>
At least you and I are in full agreement on something Chris.
This is lunacy to think that those assholes were justified in anyway for what they did.
Poor babies, they are just another symptom of how crazy society has become, to think of them as victims.
What ever happened to common sense ?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 21 07:07:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  This is kind of cheesy but true:

OBITUARY


Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend by the name of Common Sense, who ha been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
He will be remembered as having cultivated such value lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird got the worm and that life isn't always fair.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not kids, are in charge).
His health began to rapidly deteriorate when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a six year old boy, charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch, and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer aspirin to a student, but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion. He became gravely ill when sex education classes were gaven to children and then told them it was better to stay abstinent. Finally Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses, and criminals received better treatment than their victims.
Common Sense gave up the ghost after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot, so spilled a bit and was awarded a huge settlement.
Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth & Trust, his wife, Discretion, his daughter Responsibility and son Reason. He is survived by two stepbrothers, My Rights & Ima Whiner.
Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
If you still know of him, pass this on, if not, join the majority and do nothing!






 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Apr 21 10:33:41 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>There can be no more myth of “equality” for all—it only translates to “mediocrity” and supports the weak at the expense of the strong. Water must be allowed to seek its own level without interference from apologists for incompetence. No one should be protected from the effects of his own stupidity.

Well that's just stupid. That ignores the 30,000 years of human history, of community, of kinship.
It wasn't so much as stupid as 16 years of their lives being hated and ignored. This isn't an apologist speaking, but someone who has studied their histories and psychologies, the FBI profiles, and the like.
Water is not community, is not what it means to be human. You are your brother's keeper, no matter what you think.


 
addi Posted: Wed Apr 21 10:46:19 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  there's plenty of blame to go around. it's not equally shared, but they're all involved...

the parents
the kids themselves
the other columbine students
our social values
the unbelievable stupidity of the NRA and America's obsession with owning guns
rantmorgan.com (somehow they're involved)


 
libra Posted: Wed Apr 21 10:47:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Humans wouldn't have gotten to where they were without the ability to interact cooperatively. It increases our reproductive success and therefore gives us a boost in survival.

I think we have a responsibility to others, especially if they are others who have been made to feel insignificant, somehow 'less' than others around them.

I don't know if many of you has been around a High School recently, but teenagers can do some absolutely horrible things to each other. Of COURSE students have a responsibility to be civil to their peers. They don't have to be their best friend and hold hands, but common decency is all that is needed to keep even a small amount of peace. I've heard of horrible things done by high school kids, and I've seen high school kids change drastically because of the way their classmates treat them. This isn't the Darwinistic business world we're talking about, where the more skilled go to the top, it's high school, where kids shouldn't have to walk into the halls wondering what people are going to say to them that day, what they're going to have to put up with this time...


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 21 10:49:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Well that's just stupid.

You know what's stupid?

People acting like they're shocked and care about stuff like that while under normal circumstances if they would have crossed the path of one of the victims they'd probably just bump into them so they didn't have to get out fo the way for somebody else.

>That ignores the 30,000 years of human history, of community, of kinship.

Lol. Yes, human history is a tale of friendship, community and compassion and other nice utopian thoughts.

Human history is a tale of egocentrism, lust for power, evolution towards cappitalism, and other great things.

>It wasn't so much as stupid as 16 years of their lives being hated and ignored.

So what are you saying? We should force everybody to like everybody else?

If I don't like somebody I ignore them as well. Should I be put on the chair because of it?

>This isn't an apologist speaking, but someone who has studied their histories and psychologies, the FBI profiles, and the like.

I don't care. If you're picked upon it's because you don't defend yourself, period. It's your own fault then that you take crap from others.

>Water is not community, is not what it means to be human. You are your brother's keeper, no matter what you think.

If somebody can get higher than somebody else, there is no reason why the weakest should pull both down.


 
addi Posted: Wed Apr 21 11:39:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>If somebody can get higher than somebody else, there is no reason why the weakest should pull both down.

Careful here, my Flemmish friend. Your definition of "higher" may be totally different than mine. If higher to you is strickly based on income I have a problem with that statement. What criteria do you use to decide who the weak are, and who the strong are in a society?


 
Christian Posted: Wed Apr 21 11:47:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  these two boys had a choice...hell, I lived my "whole" childhood "marginalized" by a dictatorship and, hell, too, if I kill someone I have to pay the price...

those boys made their choices and people died because of those choices... c'mon, let's not fool ourselves if we think that "not tending to the marginalized and ostracized, we are creating killing machines"...I think it's our attitude that they are victims, that may turn the spark to a flame for killing...


 
Christian Posted: Wed Apr 21 11:52:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ...the weak are those who "manipulate" the least effectively...the better the manipulator the stronger the person


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 21 11:59:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Christophe said:
>
>>If somebody can get higher than somebody else, there is no reason why the weakest should pull both down.
>
>Careful here, my Flemmish friend. Your definition of "higher" may be totally different than mine. If higher to you is strickly based on income I have a problem with that statement. What criteria do you use to decide who the weak are, and who the strong are in a society?


Starting from the quote, 'higher' can be in any way you want it to be.

My vision of 'higher' is composed of many things, like common sense, the ability to think and make connections between things effectively, realism, and so on.

And yeah sorry however cruel it might be but if you ask me who is the most succesful person ('higher' in the sense of income) the guy who started his own company and made shitloads of money with it or a guy working at mc. donalds asking people if they want fries with that, I'd say the first one is 'higher' than the second one yes.

Wealth isn't the same as intelligence and stuff like that though, you don't have to search too far to find a good example of it.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 21 12:41:32 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Who pulled the trigger ?
That's who you blame, not the parents, not the NRA, not the others who made fun of them.
As Christian said, they had a choice. Back in my day (jurrasic?), you just packed up your shit and ran away for a few days or whatever.
These assholes made some very bad, very selfish choices, choices that a lot of innocent people paid and are still paying for.
Trying to place blame everywhere but on the perps themselves is just politically correct bullshit.


 
libra Posted: Wed Apr 21 12:53:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Who pulled the trigger ?
>That's who you blame, not the parents, not the NRA, not the others who made fun of them.
>As Christian said, they had a choice. Back in my day (jurrasic?), you just packed up your shit and ran away for a few days or whatever.
>These assholes made some very bad, very selfish choices, choices that a lot of innocent people paid and are still paying for.
>Trying to place blame everywhere but on the perps themselves is just politically correct bullshit.

no one's saying that they're not to blame at all. But there are other factors that influenced what they decided to do. I do put some blame on those around them: parents, their peers. Why must high school life be made so difficult?


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 21 12:57:28 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>Why must high school life be made so difficult?

If you don't take any crap from anybody they know not to try and it isn't made difficult.

Eat or be eaten I guess.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 21 13:01:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>not the NRA

I don't know if they have anything to do with this, but they're more or less about the same thing I guess:

Are you going to argue hif that if anybody, even minors, can buy bullets in a supermarket that isn't going to cause any trouble?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's their fault, and I gew up around weapons as well, I am saying though that if weapons are harder to come by they're less likely to be used by just anybody who goes berzerk.


 
libra Posted: Wed Apr 21 13:11:45 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>libra said:
>>Why must high school life be made so difficult?
>
>If you don't take any crap from anybody they know not to try and it isn't made difficult.
>
>Eat or be eaten I guess.

That doesn't always work. The other day my friend was telling me about this girl at a high school in his home town. She came to the school, not as a freshman, and kind of worked her way into the 'popular' group. She went out some really popular girl's boyfriend, and ended up being beaten up so badly by the popular girl and her friends that her legs and arms were broken and then thrown off a bridge to drown. These are high school students. 17 and 18 year old so totally caught up in this false little world that is created that they will go to incredible lengths.
I know at my school people were constantly iced out of groups and totally abandoned. Maybe you're stronger than them Christophe, but a lot of people, when totally alone, can't handle that stress. They cut themselves. They kill themselves.

I just don't understand why people have to be so mean to each other, especially in high school. What's the point?


 
addi Posted: Wed Apr 21 13:35:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Who pulled the trigger ?
>That's who you blame, not the parents, not the NRA, not the others who made fun of them.
>Trying to place blame everywhere but on the perps themselves is just politically correct bullshit.

Careful here, my Phlegmmish friend!
Nothing happens in isolation. Environment plays a large part in the decisions we make each day. I never absolved the "trigger pullers" of the lion's share of responsibility, and never would. But to say 100% of the blame falls on them, and only on them, is to say there was no cause and effect leading to the killings, and there certainly was. They didn't just wake up that day and say let's go shoot a bunch of students and then kill ourselves out of the blue.

Parents do influence their childrens actions. The other taunting students at columbine had an influence on how this played out. The relative ease at which the students got weapons says something about our "gun mentality" culture, and the NRA's role spending millions lobbying to make weapons readily available to Joe crackpot.

No one forced these guys to pull the trigger, but several outside forces came into play up to that point in their lives to have them in the school with their fingers on the triggers in the first place. If we don't accept this we have learned nothing from that terrible event.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 21 13:46:59 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Who pulled the trigger ?
>>That's who you blame, not the parents, not the NRA, not the others who made fun of them.
>>Trying to place blame everywhere but on the perps themselves is just politically correct bullshit.
>
>Careful here, my Phlegmmish friend!
>Nothing happens in isolation. Environment plays a large part in the decisions we make each day. I never absolved the "trigger pullers" of the lion's share of responsibility, and never would. But to say 100% of the blame falls on them, and only on them, is to say there was no cause and effect leading to the killings, and there certainly was. They didn't just wake up that day and say let's go shoot a bunch of students and then kill ourselves out of the blue.
>
>Parents do influence their childrens actions. The other taunting students at columbine had an influence on how this played out. The relative ease at which the students got weapons says something about our "gun mentality" culture, and the NRA's role spending millions lobbying to make weapons readily available to Joe crackpot.
>
>No one forced these guys to pull the trigger, but several outside forces came into play up to that point in their lives to have them in the school with their fingers on the triggers in the first place. If we don't accept this we have learned nothing from that terrible event.
>
I agree that there were "influences" on these assholes, but I stop right there.
You are correct, there is a cause and effect for everything, but I cannot place blame as a result of influnces, at least not in this case.
As far as the weapons being readily available, I will concede that, in this case, it would be the fault of the parents, not the NRA.
Gun control is not the answer, and that has been proven over and over again.
But that is another argument, my friend.


 
iggy Posted: Wed Apr 21 15:11:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:

>That doesn't always work. The other day my friend was telling me about this girl at a high school in his home town. She came to the school, not as a freshman, and kind of worked her way into the 'popular' group. She went out some really popular girl's boyfriend, and ended up being beaten up so badly by the popular girl and her friends that her legs and arms were broken and then thrown off a bridge to drown. These are high school students. 17 and 18 year old so totally caught up in this false little world that is created that they will go to incredible lengths.
>I know at my school people were constantly iced out of groups and totally abandoned. Maybe you're stronger than them Christophe, but a lot of people, when totally alone, can't handle that stress. They cut themselves. They kill themselves.
>
>I just don't understand why people have to be so mean to each other, especially in high school. What's the point?


that's because stupid people always submit to popular culture and peer pressure.

the jocks, the nerds, the cheerleaders, the stoners, the preppies, the skater boys, the indie, the alternative, the feminists...

all of the kids want to 'belong' to a group no thanks to the movies.

noone dares to be who they are.

u like a certain culture, u gotta 'abide' by the rules.

even the 'rebels' have to rebel against type to be seen as one which ironically they conform to society.

it's not hard to fit into high school. it's only a matter whether u lie hard enough to be accepted by your 'targetted' group...



 
iggy Posted: Wed Apr 21 15:13:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i used to be the chain smoking angst ridden film student/rebel/stoner/surfer/raver crowd in college

which one are you?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 21 15:26:37 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  All I know is that if my GT peer group doesn't stop making fun of me, then King Thong is going on a killing spree and it will be all y'alls fault . . .
Leave me alone !
Death by thong is a terrible way to go . . .


 
libra Posted: Wed Apr 21 15:52:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  chanz said:
>i used to be the chain smoking angst ridden film student/rebel/stoner/surfer/raver crowd in college
>
>which one are you?

in high school i was the goody two shoes smart quiet girl. and most of my friends were as well...we were all 'nice' but never 'cool.' I got over it though, i hope.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 21 15:54:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>in high school i was the goody two shoes smart quiet girl. and most of my friends were as well...we were all 'nice' but never 'cool.' I got over it though, i hope.
>
You're not only cool darlin', you're a hottie too !


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 21 16:02:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>Christophe said:
>>libra said:
>>>Why must high school life be made so difficult?
>>
>>If you don't take any crap from anybody they know not to try and it isn't made difficult.
>>
>>Eat or be eaten I guess.
>
>That doesn't always work. The other day my friend was telling me about this girl at a high school in his home town. She came to the school, not as a freshman, and kind of worked her way into the 'popular' group. She went out some really popular girl's boyfriend, and ended up being beaten up so badly by the popular girl and her friends that her legs and arms were broken and then thrown off a bridge to drown.

The girl you talk about sounds like a whore if she fucked her way up the social ladder and had it comming, so no pity there. The ones who beat her up are probably too stupid to know the difference between legs open and legs closed, so no big surprise there either.

>These are high school students. 17 and 18 year old so totally caught up in this false little world that is created that they will go to incredible lengths.

Yeah I agree completely with that, one of the main reasons I despise people is usually because they have so much shit in their eyes and are caught up in their fake worlds.

>I know at my school people were constantly iced out of groups and totally abandoned. Maybe you're stronger than them Christophe, but a lot of people, when totally alone, can't handle that stress. They cut themselves. They kill themselves.

So what? I piss people off all the time and I'm not "alone" either, on the contrary they respect me because of it. But seriously what do you expect if you let people walk over you all the time, it won't stop by doing nothing, and changing yourself to suit the demands of others is plain stupid and doesn't help shit anyway because it only shows that they hit you were it hurts. No matter how stupid people are, they sense stuff like that so it will probably make it even worse.

I never understanded what people get out of cutting themselves by the way.

>
>I just don't understand why people have to be so mean to each other, especially in high school. What's the point?

I'm nice to whoever is nice to me.

People often act out of primitive emotions like jealousy or frustration when they are 'mean'.

Considering the fact that most teenagers aren't in control of the hormonal cocktail which they call their body and brain at all, so that's what you get from it.


 
addi Posted: Wed Apr 21 17:35:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Considering the fact that most teenagers aren't in control of the hormonal cocktail which they call their body and brain at all

I tried ordering a hormonal cocktail last week at the beach. the bartender asked for my I.D. and then informed me I was too old. So I asked him to pour me a sex on the beach. He said, "No. You might have a heart attack". : (

much to my complete shame I was a jock in high school. Quaterbacked our football team and did track as well. I never taunted others, but am sure I came off like an arrogant ass a lot. I know I looked down on the other groups. It just goes to show you though that people can change. I did. I'm just arrogant now, and not a jock.





 
Mesh Posted: Wed Apr 21 17:36:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I am an arrogant prick. If I were other people I would hate me. But im me, so I love myself and know that I kick a lot of ass.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 21 19:32:32 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>I am an arrogant prick. If I were other people I would hate me. But im me, so I love myself and know that I kick a lot of ass.
>
Nobody hates meshuggah, if they do, king thong will introduce them to "death by thong".


 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Apr 21 22:39:53 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
> ......
No wonder you're so bitter.
You have no idea what it is to be a teenager, let alone an American teenager.
The actions on 4/20/99 were a meeting of conditions that are retestable and that do happen in the natural world of humanity. Yes, they are primal emotions, but that's all they had left.

No Easy Answers:

Page 50
Seniors at Columbine would do things like pour baby oil on the floor, then literally "go bowling" with freshmen; they would throw the kid across the floor, and since he couldn't stop, he'd crash right into other kids with the jocks pointed and giggled. The adiministration finally put a stop to it after a freshman girl slipped and broke her arm.
One guy, a wrestler who everyone who knew to avoid, liked to make kids get down on the ground and push pennies along the floor with their noses. This would happen during school hours, as kids were passing from one class to another. Teachers would see it and look the other way. "Boys will be boys, " they'd say, and laugh.

Page 68
In reality, the Trench Coat Mafiawas nothing more than a group of friends who hung out together, wore black trench coats, and prided themselves on being different than the "jocks"...
One [jock] commented that with the trench coats, the group of "outcasts" looked like some sort of "mafia." "Yeah, like a trench coat mafia," said another.


 
iggy Posted: Wed Apr 21 23:17:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  and u expect the world to remember anniversary dates of american events?

r-ight.

and no... christophe will not know how an american teenager feel... neither will i...

cos we are not american. and whatever goes on in america. be it the elections, be it any shootings, be it any superbowl fiascos...

that to us, is a foreign event.

i'm sorry but that's the truth. the world does not revolve around the U.S of A




 
DanSRose Posted: Thu Apr 22 01:10:41 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Of course it doesn't. Take into mind I didn't know Christophe, or you for that matter, were not American. This is phenomenon, albeit an American one.

It's a question of humanity, responsiblity, and culpability. He is ignoring his role in it. He is living in the world of free will, which it cannot be. There are hundreds of environmental factors that unconsciously guide us, whether it be our peers, parents, community, or general society, no one lives in a bubble. It's the equal of being for the death penalty- the immediate problem is gone but there is something else wrong lying underneath and it's everyone's problem.


 
Leonidas Posted: Thu Apr 22 01:30:43 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Noone is trying to absolve the killers of their guilt and their responsibility of what happened. But at least awknowledge the fact that there was an entire culture, of easy gun access, of lack of parental supervision, of cruel high school social structure. Are any of these to blame for the tragedy, no. The blame rests entirely on those two disturbed individuals. But those factors created the potential for this situation. If we know what the precursors were, we can change them to reduce the possibility of another. Personally I don't feel like waiting around for another one to happen. I would not be the shooter but I might end up the victim. By preventing another tragedy , I save myself, that's Darwinism too.


 
iggy Posted: Thu Apr 22 04:21:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i grew up in a country which has a parental government state system where they dictate almost everything u do.

censorship, and OB markers are the normality here.

the good thing is that we do not have problems involving firearms nor cruel high school culture. these things are banned.

the bad thing is that we sold our freedom for safety and peace.

what u get is sanitized media, and censorship of anything that will 'corrupt' the citizens e.g pornography, freedom of speech etc.





 
iggy Posted: Thu Apr 22 04:25:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  noone told those two idiots to go pick up a gun and shoot at innocent people.

sure... point the finger at the parents, the media, the educational system, the president, God and what-have-you.

but the finger should be pointed at the person that acted on the idea.

they are just cold blooded murderers. simple as that. i hope they fry in hell


 
sweet p Posted: Thu Apr 22 05:02:59 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Goodness gracious me.

The world is a cruel place. I feel as though most of you have probably learnt this by now. There is no escaping it...no protection against it. Indeed we would like to think we can prevent such tragedies as that of the Columbine shooting...just like I'd like to think we can prevent wars, poverty, cruelty to animals...the destruction of our planet.

But no can do.

Sure I'll accept your "we can all make a difference if we try" arguments but it seems to me that the difference we are required to make has become much too large for us to handle.

I can remember not to stare, not to name-call, and not to give my back to people...maybe I will save that sad anti-social girl in my computer science class. But differences between people will always exist and for some reason, these differences will always make people uncomfortable. We have history to look back on. Examples of violence will always exist. Innocent people are dying all over the planet and cute little animals are beaten and slain for my meals.

It has happened and will continue to happen.

The world is a difficult place to live in...but you must remember that it is due to the complex people that make it. Heheh...some not as complex as others but complex all the same. We immitate [what we see/hear/live] but we also manipulate and CREATE. We are blessed [cursed?] with brains and emotions...which together, make for very powerful weapons. And we cannot control those that don't belong to us.

With all due respect, it is nice to remember the people who died in this tragic event...but there is no use in debating their culpability. Guns kill people, people kill people. We will continue to make and raise in this world, children who can think. We can hide them from the evils of the world and they will create new ways to destroy themselves...and they will STILL blame us.


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Apr 22 08:11:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  and remember guns don't kill people, dangerous minorities do


 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 22 11:12:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Christophe said:
>No wonder you're so bitter.
>You have no idea what it is to be a teenager, let alone an American teenager.


I'm not bitter. Said it so many times before and I'll say it again: don't mistake my realism for pessimism.

I am a teenager so I guess I know what it's like to be one.

You don't know what it's like to be a European teenager.


 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 22 11:18:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Of course it doesn't. Take into mind I didn't know Christophe, or you for that matter, were not American. This is phenomenon, albeit an American one.
>
>It's a question of humanity, responsiblity, and culpability. He is ignoring his role in it. He is living in the world of free will, which it cannot be. There are hundreds of environmental factors that unconsciously guide us, whether it be our peers, parents, community, or general society, no one lives in a bubble. It's the equal of being for the death penalty- the immediate problem is gone but there is something else wrong lying underneath and it's everyone's problem.


I have no responsibility over somebody else's crap they do to fuck up their lives and those of other people.

Seriously, I don't care if junks drop dead in front of my eyes, I don't care if people get addicted to sigarettes or alcohol and get cancers or serious problems because of it. It's their own fucking fault, not mine.

You think I have never been confronted with any of this stuff? Everybody is somewhere down the road.

You have people who say no, and you have stupid people who say yes to it, for which there is no excuse and nobody is to blame but the person in question.

Nobody put a gun to their heads to do it, they did it themselves.

Fuck peer pressure, if somebody is too weak to handle stuff he or she is the only one responsible for what follows.


 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 22 11:22:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>and remember guns don't kill people, dangerous minorities do


Agreed.


DanSRose, I'm from Belgium by the way.


 
addi Posted: Thu Apr 22 11:53:42 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>I have no responsibility over somebody else's crap they do to fuck up their lives and those of other people.


On one hand you can make valid points for everything you say, Chris.

I just wonder if there's any room left for compassion in your world view for anyone that ever makes a mistake, or uses bad judgement in their past.


 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 22 12:11:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>I just wonder if there's any room left for compassion in your world view for anyone that ever makes a mistake, or uses bad judgement in their past.


Very little.

Depends on the case though.

I don't care if people get into something out of peer pressure to stick to the thread for example, or start doing drugs or whatever of which everybody knows they'll fuck their life up even more.

I'm not claiming to be perfect either, nobody is.

However, you won't see me getting into drugs/alcohol/whatever because of whatever reason there might be.

90% of the problems people are in they have caused themselves, and I have no pity or sympathy for that whatsoever.

If you burn your ass you'll have to sit on the blisters, it's as simple as that.


 
iggy Posted: Thu Apr 22 12:59:40 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>Fuck peer pressure, if somebody is too weak to handle stuff he or she is the only one responsible for what follows.

aye. very much agreed. fuck what people think, do it the way u want it.

i know a lot of people that behave a certain way so that they will be percieved to be cool and be accepted.

fucking sheep



 
iggy Posted: Thu Apr 22 13:07:23 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:

>I just wonder if there's any room left for compassion in your world view for anyone that ever makes a mistake, or uses bad judgement in their past.

when u say things as it is, you are percieved to have no compassion. it's not that there is no compassion... why bother sugar coating something just so that the fella can swallow the truth easier?

i get a lot of shit from everyone i know cos i say it as it is.
if they come to me for advice, i give them my 2 cents as it is and most of the time, i hit them where it hurts.
i tell most of my friends, don;t come to me for some ego stroking... i won't.
just because they're my mates doesn't mean that i'm obliged to be their cheerleader.



 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 22 13:08:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  chanz said:
>addison said:
>
>>I just wonder if there's any room left for compassion in your world view for anyone that ever makes a mistake, or uses bad judgement in their past.
>
>when u say things as it is, you are percieved to have no compassion. it's not that there is no compassion... why bother sugar coating something just so that the fella can swallow the truth easier?
>
>i get a lot of shit from everyone i know cos i say it as it is.
>if they come to me for advice, i give them my 2 cents as it is and most of the time, i hit them where it hurts.
>i tell most of my friends, don;t come to me for some ego stroking... i won't.
>just because they're my mates doesn't mean that i'm obliged to be their cheerleader.
>


Same thing with me.


 
addi Posted: Thu Apr 22 13:42:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i just hold a different outlook guys.
As someone's friend I feel obligated to tell them the truth when I deem necessary, even if I know it will hurt. And I also feel obligated to be a "cheerleader" for them when I deem it may help them. Being a friend to someone doesn't mean under every possible circumstance always telling them the truth.

A very close friend of mine was torn to pieces last year when his wife left him. On several occations I honestly felt he was close to suicide. He called me long distance quite often to talk. There were times when I felt I needed to be suportive and just listen (even though I knew it was his problem), and there were times when I had to politely tell him that his actions and attitude was a problem.
A friend isn't one dimensional; always sugar coating, or always telling it like it is, when the timing may do more harm than good. Being a friend is knowing the person well enough to discern when to be straight forward, and when to save it for another time.




 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 22 14:01:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Telling the truth the way it is isn't always offending people either.

If something positive strikes me I say so as well, and it gets appreciated that way because they know I mean it, because if I wouldn't I would have said so or would have kept my mouth shut.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Apr 22 14:02:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  chanz said:
>addison said:
>
>>I just wonder if there's any room left for compassion in your world view for anyone that ever makes a mistake, or uses bad judgement in their past.
>
>when u say things as it is, you are percieved to have no compassion. it's not that there is no compassion... why bother sugar coating something just so that the fella can swallow the truth easier?
>
Plenty of room for compassion, but you still gotta tell it straight up like it is.
I'm in agreement with Chris and Chanz.

Does this mean the planets are lining up kinda funny ?
>i get a lot of shit from everyone i know cos i say it as it is.
>if they come to me for advice, i give them my 2 cents as it is and most of the time, i hit them where it hurts.
>i tell most of my friends, don;t come to me for some ego stroking... i won't.
>just because they're my mates doesn't mean that i'm obliged to be their cheerleader.
>


 
addi Posted: Thu Apr 22 14:18:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Telling the truth the way it is isn't always offending people either.


I need you to point out to me where i said telling it straight ALWAYS offends the person.

>If something positive strikes me I say so as well, and it gets appreciated that way because they know I mean it, because if I wouldn't I would have said so or would have kept my mouth shut.

That's a very good non-answer to my post. You'd make a good politician.

Long and short: you good people say always shoot straight and tell it like it is, no matter the situation.
My opinion is that it's situational. Sometimes you sugar coat, sometimes you shoot straight, depending on who the person is, what their relationship is to you, and the circumstances at the time.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Apr 22 14:33:50 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Would this be a good example of sugar coating - "no honey, those pants don't really make you look fat"

And telling it straight up "no honey, those pants don't really make you look fat, it's your ass that makes you look fat"

????????????????????


 
addi Posted: Thu Apr 22 15:24:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Would this be a good example of sugar coating - "no honey, those pants don't really make you look fat"
>
>And telling it straight up "no honey, those pants don't really make you look fat, it's your ass that makes you look fat"

LMAO!
yeah!

or this...
to my 82 year old dear sweet fundamentalist mother on the phone...
"Yeah, Mom, I think The Passion of Christ is a great movie. Yeah, everyone should see it. Yeah, I'm going this week."

Being straight with her at this age isn't going to do anyone any good. It would only serve to break her heart that her "good" son has gone to the devil. I have absolutely no qualms sugar coating my spiritual beliefs to her.


 
DanSRose Posted: Thu Apr 22 15:24:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Isolationism and pure individualism makes people that cannot function in a society, and no matter what you do, thats where you function. Being in a group, whether it's a club, a family, a town, or an officialation of any sort, is what makes you function as an individual and as a success. Declaring yourself useless is silly & pointless.

What happened to Dylan Kleibold and Eric Harris was the rights and the organized functioning of a group was abused to the point where their basic humanity was broken down. It passed the point where they could stop themselves, as no one else wanted them, at all.

Yes, this is a Marxist view on individualism, but the horror of Marx is that he goddam makes sense so often.


 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 22 15:29:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Christophe said:
>>Telling the truth the way it is isn't always offending people either.
>
>
>I need you to point out to me where i said telling it straight ALWAYS offends the person.

I know, just clarifying :o)

>
>>If something positive strikes me I say so as well, and it gets appreciated that way because they know I mean it, because if I wouldn't I would have said so or would have kept my mouth shut.
>
>That's a very good non-answer to my post. You'd make a good politician.
>

Well thank you, I'm thinking about becomming on of the first presidents of the European Union.

>Long and short: you good people say always shoot straight and tell it like it is, no matter the situation.
>My opinion is that it's situational. Sometimes you sugar coat, sometimes you shoot straight, depending on who the person is, what their relationship is to you, and the circumstances at the time.
>

Yeah well I admid that towards a girlfriend for example I am a little more careful about what I say but still I say what I think.

But if somebody asks me something like "do these pants make my ass look big?" I'll probably answer something along the lines of "Yes, and not only that but you look like you haven't slept in years" if that is what I am thinking.

And I don't treat my friends any 'better' than anybody else. Just a while ago I told a friend of mine to stop the whining and grow up before I'd turn psycho on her.

She got pissed, and her boyfriend, also a friend of mine, as well as a result of it.

Don't care too much about it though. They'll be back :o)


 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 22 15:31:47 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>ifihadahif said:
>or this...
>to my 82 year old dear sweet fundamentalist mother on the phone...
>"Yeah, Mom, I think The Passion of Christ is a great movie. Yeah, everyone should see it. Yeah, I'm going this week."


Well my grandmother asked me once if I'd pray for her after she'd die (she's very religious although I manage to talk her out of it bit by bit).

I replied that I wouldn't since I don't believe in it, and she was on the verge of crying because of it.

I'd say the same thing again if I could do it over, better that than lying.


 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 22 15:36:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Isolationism and pure individualism makes people that cannot function in a society, and no matter what you do, thats where you function. Being in a group, whether it's a club, a family, a town, or an officialation of any sort, is what makes you function as an individual and as a success. Declaring yourself useless is silly & pointless.
>

I am the last person to ever declare myself useless, where did you get that from?

I just don't care about most things that other people seem to make a big fuss about. That is untill I give them my point of view and they stop and think for a while and realise they're full of shit (most of the time).

Being an individualist doesn't mean you isolate yourself from the world, it means you mind your own bussiness and don't accept anyone else interfering with yours.

I have loads of friends and aquaintances (probably spelled wrong), my world view has nothing to do with that at all.

>What happened to Dylan Kleibold and Eric Harris was the rights and the organized functioning of a group was abused to the point where their basic humanity was broken down. It passed the point where they could stop themselves, as no one else wanted them, at all.
>

So what if nobody wanted them?

I can't stand being around people who I deem stupid, so what? That's not my problem, it's theirs.

>Yes, this is a Marxist view on individualism, but the horror of Marx is that he goddam makes sense so often.

Marx can kiss my ass.

Marxism has nothing to do with reality, get over it.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Apr 22 15:50:47 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>
>or this...
>to my 82 year old dear sweet fundamentalist mother on the phone...
>"Yeah, Mom, I think The Passion of Christ is a great movie. Yeah, everyone should see it. Yeah, I'm going this week."
>
>Being straight with her at this age isn't going to do anyone any good. It would only serve to break her heart that her "good" son has gone to the devil. I have absolutely no qualms sugar coating my spiritual beliefs to her.
>
Your Mom is a sweet old lady and you should be ashamed of yourself for the way you've drifted to the dark side !
It probably pains her to know this.
LOL


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Apr 22 15:55:24 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>What happened to Dylan Kleibold and Eric Harris was the rights and the organized functioning of a group was abused to the point where their basic humanity was broken down. It passed the point where they could stop themselves, as no one else wanted them, at all.
>
IF this is truly what happened, it's only because they allowed it to happen.
It engulfed them and they wallowed in it and let it happen. Whiny assed kids.


 
addi Posted: Thu Apr 22 16:01:26 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>I'd say the same thing again if I could do it over, better that than lying.

No it's not : )


and to clarify...If I was given a choice of having a friend that always sugar coated things, or one that always talked straight there's no question I'd go for the latter friend. Ass kissing phoney people disgust me, but I don't see a double standard in being a tell it like it is person, and still sugar coating now and then if the situation calls for it (like your prayer conversation with your grandmother).


"Yeah, I could see the exact moment I broke the old bitches heart, but it was worth it because I kept my straight shooting principals intact."

Phooey!


 
addi Posted: Thu Apr 22 16:05:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Your Mom is a sweet old lady and you should be ashamed of yourself for the way you've drifted to the dark side !
>It probably pains her to know this.

LOL!! You Idiot!!
If she ever finds out I'm telling her it was all your doing!!!


 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 22 16:10:56 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>"Yeah, I could see the exact moment I broke the old bitches heart, but it was worth it because I kept my straight shooting principals intact."


It wasn't with the intention of breaking her heart, I love my grandmother.

I just don't believe in lying unless I can get some kind of advantage out of it.


 
addi Posted: Thu Apr 22 16:13:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>I just don't believe in lying unless I can get some kind of advantage out of it.

Checkmate : )


 
kurohyou Posted: Thu Apr 22 18:28:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Archangel said:
>A touching article until you identify the shooters as victims, they aren't, they're perpetrators. None of us are to blame, especially those of us that live 1000s of miles away, I was picked on as a kid and I did some picking, it's part of life, deal with it. There's no excuse for what they did and the world is better without them.

True. In the legal sense of this situation. But they are victims. Either victims of a society that mistreated them, or victims of their own skewed view of justice. Outside the realm of justice and legality, and in the realm of humanity, I feel they are victims.

I too have been picked on and done some picking as I mentioned previously. Let me ask you, what kept you from snapping. Was it something internal. Was it the degree to which you were picked on? I'm real interested because there has to be some common factor in those who do snap and those who don't.



 
kurohyou Posted: Thu Apr 22 19:00:19 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>>
>At least you and I are in full agreement on something Chris.
>This is lunacy to think that those assholes were justified in anyway for what they did.
>Poor babies, they are just another symptom of how crazy society has become, to think of them as victims.
>What ever happened to common sense ?

Trying to figure out why somone did something is not necessairly justifying thier behavior. Nothing will justify their behavior, but I believe that as a society we need to figure out why it happened and do what we can to keep it from happening again. I don't know who said it but someone once said "those who do not learn from their past are condemened to repeat it" Or something to that effect. I don't think this is something anyone wants to ever repeate, even if you are 1000s of miles away.



 
kurohyou Posted: Thu Apr 22 19:11:21 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christian said:
>these two boys had a choice...hell, I lived my "whole" childhood "marginalized" by a dictatorship and, hell, too, if I kill someone I have to pay the price...

And had they survived they would have too. However they went in with no intention of surviving. This was going to be the end of them and everyone in their eyes...

Again, if you faced the same thing they did, what kept you from snapping?
>
I think it's our attitude that they are victims, that may turn the spark to a flame for killing...

I don't think that in their eyes they would be victims, or want to be considered victims. They felt they were righting a wrong....I lost my train of thought on this one and need to stop. Maybe I'll come back to later



 
kurohyou Posted: Thu Apr 22 19:17:45 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>libra said:
>>Why must high school life be made so difficult?
>
>If you don't take any crap from anybody they know not to try and it isn't made difficult.
>
>Eat or be eaten I guess.

First, how old are you Christophe, I ask because you sound a lot like me when I was younger... Just curious...

Second. Is that the attitude we want to foster in this world. Do unto others before they do unto you. What kind of world are we going to have at the end of that? It would probably look a lot like the world we have now. Wars, violence, hatred, all because we need to get that other guy before he tries to get us. I think that is a dangerous message for our children.


 
kurohyou Posted: Thu Apr 22 19:19:46 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Who pulled the trigger ?
>>That's who you blame, not the parents, not the NRA, not the others who made fun of them.
>>Trying to place blame everywhere but on the perps themselves is just politically correct bullshit.
>
>Careful here, my Phlegmmish friend!
>Nothing happens in isolation. Environment plays a large part in the decisions we make each day. I never absolved the "trigger pullers" of the lion's share of responsibility, and never would. But to say 100% of the blame falls on them, and only on them, is to say there was no cause and effect leading to the killings, and there certainly was. They didn't just wake up that day and say let's go shoot a bunch of students and then kill ourselves out of the blue.
>
>Parents do influence their childrens actions. The other taunting students at columbine had an influence on how this played out. The relative ease at which the students got weapons says something about our "gun mentality" culture, and the NRA's role spending millions lobbying to make weapons readily available to Joe crackpot.
>
>No one forced these guys to pull the trigger, but several outside forces came into play up to that point in their lives to have them in the school with their fingers on the triggers in the first place. If we don't accept this we have learned nothing from that terrible event.
>

I agree completly


 
kurohyou Posted: Thu Apr 22 19:31:21 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  chanz said:
>i used to be the chain smoking angst ridden film student/rebel/stoner/surfer/raver crowd in college
>
>which one are you?

I was a mess. First two years dorky smart guy. Theatre freak (TECH) and isolationist. Last two years, joined the football team, was an outcast there as well (I was the only player to bring a book to football camp to read for fun) but had fun playing the game. continuted to isolate myself in the theatre and did my thing.

I got a lot of crap from a lot of kids and it pissed me off. But I went off on that in my inital post. I don't miss high school but I still work at my old High School in the theatre department, and what Libra was saying earlier is true. High school kids are mean, and the kids I work with are the ones who are outcasts. When I talk to them I try to impress upon them that this high school society is temporary and they they need to focus on thier future becaue the dynamics of their lives will be vastly different in 10 years.

My 10 year reunion is coming up in 2 years and I'm not anywhere near the person I was. I think I'm much better. Of course I married the prom queen. Hehehehe.


 
kurohyou Posted: Thu Apr 22 19:37:35 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
>they are just cold blooded murderers. simple as that. i hope they fry in hell

Charles Manson (psycho american Killer) and Adolf Hitler were cold blooded murders. And for all intends and purposes so were these two children. But that's the catch. They were children. They weren't old enough to buy a drink, and they had parents and siblings that loved them. Not saying that Manson and Hitler didn't but those two were grown adults who made the choices that they made. Klebold and Harris were kids, plain and simple I think that is why its harder to understand. I don't hope they burn in hell, because doing that would perputate hatred, and there's plenty of that already swarming around this situation.



 
DanSRose Posted: Thu Apr 22 22:50:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Dylan and Eric were more guided and made to be evil than born evil.
The author of the book I keep mentioning was the "third shooter", which meant he hung out in the general group with Eric and Dylan. Moreso, on that morning, he shared a cigarette with Eric, to which Eric said, "Brooks, I like you. Get out of here. Go home." That in it of itself is odd as Eric threatened Brooks' and his families lives with pipe bombs the year before.

These boys lived with pain, with daily doses of hate poured on them for the fun of it. No person reasonably take that.
I lived a very parallel life, and survived it only because of a few minor details. I know without them I couldn't be standing here today.


 
iggy Posted: Fri Apr 23 00:44:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Does this mean the planets are lining up kinda funny ?


thy end is near


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Apr 23 07:04:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Dylan and Eric were more guided and made to be evil than born evil.
>
The same opportunites to be evil are there for all of us, all you have to do is accept it or reject it.
Most of us reject it.
These boys wallowed in it. I feel pity for their families, none for them. Had they been much younger, it would be different, but they were old enough to know what they were doing, they were too selfish to care.


>These boys lived with pain, with daily doses of hate poured on them for the fun of it. No person reasonably take that.
>
Poor babies, so much pain. I went to school with a girl who had cerebral palsey and she was made fun of. I went to school with a guy who had leukemia, they made fun of his wig he wore to hide the results of chemotherapy.
Yes, children are cruel, and that is the natural order of things. It's reality. It's part of nature's way of sorting out the misfits.
For most of us,(me included, I was made fun of too, I was somewhat of a dorky smart kid), it makes us stronger.
Sure I had fantasies about killing my tormentors but they remained just that .. fantasies. I lived in the real world. Eventually we all grew up.
Eric and Dylan had no strength of character and were too selfish, and they made innocent people pay for that.



 
FN Posted: Fri Apr 23 10:30:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Panther said:
>First, how old are you Christophe, I ask because you sound a lot like me when I was younger... Just curious...
>

I'm 17, and please, please, don't tell me my views will change.

Wether you believe this or not is your thing, but trust me, they won't change.

My views, thoughts and values have been tested over and over and over again and I have always stood my ground, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't, age has nothing to do with that.

>Second. Is that the attitude we want to foster in this world. Do unto others before they do unto you. What kind of world are we going to have at the end of that? It would probably look a lot like the world we have now. Wars, violence, hatred, all because we need to get that other guy before he tries to get us. I think that is a dangerous message for our children.

I never said 'do unto others before they do unto you', I'm just saying you shouldn't take any crap from anybody, if they know they can toy with you, they will, it's only natural.

I don't go around picking fights, that's just not my style, but if they cross the line I bite back.


 
FN Posted: Fri Apr 23 10:34:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Panther said:
>
>>they are just cold blooded murderers. simple as that. i hope they fry in hell
>
>Charles Manson (psycho american Killer) and Adolf Hitler were cold blooded murders. And for all intends and purposes so were these two children. But that's the catch. They were children. They weren't old enough to buy a drink, and they had parents and siblings that loved them.


So what? No matter how old you are or where you're comming from, YOU and YOU alone are the only one making the final decision. There is simply no excuse.

I don't know how old those guys were, I'm guessing around 15->19 or something. A 10 year old is a kid, a 16-17 year old isn't, certainly not in terms of comprehending the consequences of stuff like this, so yes, they are guilty.


 
kurohyou Posted: Fri Apr 23 13:06:56 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>I'm 17, and please, please, don't tell me my views will change.
>
>Wether you believe this or not is your thing, but trust me, they won't change.
>
>My views, thoughts and values have been tested over and over and over again and I have always stood my ground, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't, age has nothing to do with that.
>
Cool. Your views are yours and its all good. Age might not have anything to do with that, but experiences do. As you get older and experience more, its possible that things in your mind might change. And its possible that they might not. But I think it has more to do with the things you experience than how long you live on this planet.

Age is just a lineal gauge by which we measure how long we've been alive. Not necessairly how long we've been living and or how much we've learned.

More power to you. You certianly are passoniate about what you say and the way you present it. That will come in handy whether you are 17, or 57. I may not agree with everything you say but I respect the tenacity to which you defend it. I'd just caution you about being too certian that things won't change. Because as somone wiser than I once said. The only thing certian in this world is change.

But its all good.



 
kurohyou Posted: Fri Apr 23 13:13:45 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>I don't know how old those guys were, I'm guessing around 15->19 or something. A 10 year old is a kid, a 16-17 year old isn't, certainly not in terms of comprehending the consequences of stuff like this, so yes, they are guilty.

I belive that they were both 17, I could be wrong. They were high school seniors. True, at that age you should be able to know right from wrong and make good choices. That is the battle that any parent fights as they raise their children, hoping that whatever you've instilled in them will enable them to make the right choices.

I'm not trying to absolve them of the responsibility of making the correct choice. They made a horrible choice. But even at that age, you can't place them in a vacuum and expect the environment not to have played a role in their actions. At that age especially the environment is much more influencial than it would have been to them in 10 years.

Are they kids? Maybe not kids in the sense you stated above, I can agree with that. At the very least they were adolescents, not adults by any means. They may have felt like they were adults, but they weren't, biologically, emtionally or leagally. To thier parents they will always be kids, no matter how old.

They way you react to environmental factors changes as you get older and experience more.

I've read some more information which I found intriguing, but since I should get back to work I will share that later.



 
FN Posted: Fri Apr 23 15:24:22 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Panther said:
>They may have felt like they were adults, but they weren't, biologically, emtionally or leagally. To thier parents they will always be kids, no matter how old.

Lol, with he risk of sounding cocky: If you consider stuff like emotional stability to be the trademark of adulthood I'm more of an adult than most 'adults' I come across in every day life.

I percieve myself as no less than anybody else, I wouldn't know why I should, simply because of something like age (or whatever actually) and the fact that there are a few more months to go before I'm legally an adult.

And yeah I am pretty certain my views will change very little, if anything, over time.

I think everything over more than once before I make up my mind about it - yes, everything - and once I decide on something, whatever it may be, I rarely waver from it.

I can't remember the last time I changed my views on something.

Why?

Again, at the risk of sounding cocky: because people simply can't seem to give me any better reasoning than my own, so why would I change?

I know I myself have made a lot of people around me change their minds about stuff I talked about with them, so I guess at least some of my reasoning and views aren't that farfechted, and sometimes they seem to be for other people, but they have never done me any harm, on the contrary.


 
kurohyou Posted: Sun Apr 25 22:48:25 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Went out of town for the weekend and just got back.

So my wife and I have been talking, and after talking with her and re-reading some of the posts in this string, I've come to a realization.

I think I was mistaken to count the shooters as victims of the actual incident at columbine.

I've started looking at this from three perspectives. One, the events leading up to the shootings and the victims of those events. Two, the actual shootings themselves and the victim of that event. And three, the aftermath of the shootings, and its victims.

Dylan and Eric (The shooters) were victims of circumstances leading up the the actual shootings. The societal influences, the taunting, and the dehumanizing that these two allegeldy experienced, the lack of parental supervision, the ease of which they obtained their arsenal. Those are all factors which occured prior to the shootings.

They were not victims of the actual shootings. Anyone who was caught in the path of these two, were the victims. That is pretty self explanatory.

The third set of victims are as mentioned above the result of the fallout, the aftermath. The mom of the one girl who, walked into a pawn shop and asked to see a handgun, loaded it with a bullet she brought and shot herself. Or the student who sat there as Dave Sanders, his teacher and basketball coach died, committed suicide afterwards as well. Not to mention the countless other emotional and physical scars that won't heal.

Taken on a whole, including those three perspectives, there were 17 victims of columbine, but There weren't 15 victims of the actual shootings on the 20th of April 1999. I can understand that better now.

The one thing I will content is from a parents perspective, whether their child was a perpertrator of this act or a victim, 14 children did die that day.

This has been an intriguing evolution of ideas, at least for me, thank you all for participating up to this point and I look forard to anything else anyone has to add.


 
kurohyou Posted: Sun Apr 25 23:01:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>Lol, with he risk of sounding cocky: If you consider stuff like emotional stability to be the trademark of adulthood I'm more of an adult than most 'adults' I come across in every day life.
>
I can't argue with that, many who claim to be adults don't have the emotional stability of a 6 year old. My mother being one of them. I do know a lot of people though who have stablized more emotionally as they got older. I figure both sides can be accurate. but you do have a point.

>I percieve myself as no less than anybody else, I wouldn't know why I should, simply because of something like age (or whatever actually) and the fact that there are a few more months to go before I'm legally an adult.
>
Nor should you, confidence is powerful and useful.

>And yeah I am pretty certain my views will change very little, if anything, over time.
>
Okay.

>I think everything over more than once before I make up my mind about it - yes, everything - and once I decide on something, whatever it may be, I rarely waver from it.
>
Do you feel you have acquired all the background knowledge, experience and understanding for these issues before you come to your conclusion. I have found (As previously posted) That I can have my mind made up and then have an experience, converstation, or event take place to make me question my point of view. and in some cases my point of view can change. Some may consider this weak minded, or wishy-washy thinking, but the ability for a mind to adapt to conditions around it and allow for the contemplation of others ideas is, at least in my mind, a very powerful tool. It enables you to see things from other peoples perspective and grow as things change. I have run into very few things in this world which are static. Least of all ideas or emotions.

>I can't remember the last time I changed my views on something.
>
>Why?
>
>Again, at the risk of sounding cocky: because people simply can't seem to give me any better reasoning than my own, so why would I change?
>
>I know I myself have made a lot of people around me change their minds about stuff I talked about with them, so I guess at least some of my reasoning and views aren't that farfechted, and sometimes they seem to be for other people, but they have never done me any harm, on the contrary.

More power to you Christophe, I hope I have an opportunity to converse with you 10 years from now. That could be very intriguing.


 
addi Posted: Mon Apr 26 08:03:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Panther said:

>More power to you Christophe, I hope I have an opportunity to converse with you 10 years from now. That could be very intriguing.

Because Christophe will re-read his posts on this thread and say, "I can't believe I said that!"

: )


 
kurohyou Posted: Mon Apr 26 14:40:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>Because Christophe will re-read his posts on this thread and say, "I can't believe I said that!"
>
>: )

I have a feeling that the strength of his opinions extends beyond the scope of this thread.

I just know that my view of things has changed a lot since I was that age.

For example. When I was in High School, about 17 years old. I could not stand homosexuals, or anyone who dyed their hair. In subsequent years, I've learned that Homosexuals aren't any different than us, and that it makes no difference to me now if they are homosexual or straight. I have a lot of homosexual friends, and acquaintences. So I feel I've matured in my thinking.

And I put dark red highlights in my hair about three weeks ago beause I wanted a change.

Everything changes.


 
marsteller Posted: Mon Apr 26 14:56:33 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  panther, you tryin to come out of the closet or something?


 
FN Posted: Mon Apr 26 15:14:24 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Panther said:
>I just know that my view of things has changed a lot since I was that age.
>

Some things will probably change yes, but I think the vast majority of my values and opinions will stay the same.

>For example. When I was in High School, about 17 years old. I could not stand homosexuals, or anyone who dyed their hair. In subsequent years, I've learned that Homosexuals aren't any different than us, and that it makes no difference to me now if they are homosexual or straight. I have a lot of homosexual friends, and acquaintences. So I feel I've matured in my thinking.
>

I don't have anything against homosexuals. The more the merrier, more girls/women for me.

>Everything changes.

I disagree. History repeats itself and people usually don't change that much.

For example: sluts stay sluts, liars stay liars, and so on.


 
marsteller Posted: Tue Apr 27 02:18:44 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  people change.


 
iggy Posted: Tue Apr 27 02:56:20 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  to christophe

the only thing that won't change in life is change itself...




 



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