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Dreams
Mouse Posted: Wed Jun 16 00:13:33 2004  
  I don't know when the last time I dreamed and remembered it was, it's starting to get on my nerves. What was the last dream you remembered well after waking about?

Mouse


 
SntSaturn Posted: Wed Jun 16 00:24:16 2004  
  I rarely ever remember my dreams. Let's just hope we aren't crazy together.


 
novemberrain Posted: Wed Jun 16 00:31:42 2004  
  The last dream I had concerned my job. I work with animals and the dream was about them escaping their cages.

Me suddenly thinks I need a vacation.


 
Kira Posted: Wed Jun 16 00:45:10 2004  
  Last dream I remember was about snakes. Lots of venomous snakes. And me doing really stupid things to protect myself from them.

Like wearing layers and thick boots, or trying to feed one snake to another, so that one would be dead and the other would 'lose interest.'


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 01:05:52 2004  
  Sailovzi said:
>Last dream I remember was about snakes. Lots of venomous snakes. And me doing really stupid things to protect myself from them.
>
>Like wearing layers and thick boots, or trying to feed one snake to another, so that one would be dead and the other would 'lose interest.'

hah, i'd think wearing thick boots and layers might actually help, however the 2nd tactic is just downright absurd and histerical.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 01:10:53 2004  
  i also rarely dream, and when i do, i rarely remember much of them. a symptom of marijuana withdrawal is having very vivid dreams, so if i ever smoke then don't smoke the next day, that night i'd often have some real cool dreams.

one time i was in a drug lord's mansion being held captive w/ some friends and family. i ended up trying to run away, stealing a gun off some guard, being spotted by a guard who then shot me through the heart. i dropped to my knees, shot and killed him, then i remember realizing that i was going to die, so i put the gun to my head, pulled the trigger and everything went black but i was still in the dream, so i figured i only knocked out the vision part of my brain w/ that shot, so i repositioned the gun, pulled the trigger again and woke up... was pretty damn wild.

i did a poor job of describing my dream. it was very vivid at the time but i don't recall the particulars.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Jun 16 01:18:35 2004  
  Last night.


I had a dream about a girl I used to really like. We had gotten married.


Then also last night, I had a dream about an old friend who died, dreamed he was still alive and we were still having a blast.

Then, again last night, I dreamed about this older girl I knew back in school. I never liked her or really knew her that well, so its weird she just randomly showed up as one of the maine people in one of my dreams.





 
Mesh Posted: Wed Jun 16 01:20:11 2004  
  Youre dream sounds awesome, asswipe.

That would make a good movie plot lol.


 
choke Posted: Wed Jun 16 04:39:24 2004  
  Last night i had a dream i went to biology and when the teachers back was turned i went out the back and started yelling at people who were disecting mice that were still alive. Then i went to the skatepark where a friend told me we shouldnt speak to each other anymore. Then he handed me a mcdonalds bag with two cheeseburgers and some chicken nuggets in it. Maybe a sign you think? :P


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Jun 16 05:26:13 2004  
  yeah.

its a sign that mcdonalds advertising has cracked the secret to dream advertisements.


Is nowhere safe anymore!?!?!?!


 
addi Posted: Wed Jun 16 07:21:35 2004  
  choke said:
> Then he handed me a mcdonalds bag with two cheeseburgers and some chicken nuggets in it. Maybe a sign you think? :P

Ludwig believes the two cheesburgers represent breasts and the McNuggets symbolize male McTesticles. He says he needs to know what you did with them to complete his analysis


 
novemberrain Posted: Wed Jun 16 08:26:13 2004  
  addison said:
>Ludwig believes the two cheesburgers represent breasts and the McNuggets symbolize male McTesticles. He says he needs to know what you did with them to complete his analysis

male McTesticles? As opposed to female McTesticles, Ludwig? :)

novrain - who didn't get much sleep last night, and has a sudden craving for McDonald's


 
addi Posted: Wed Jun 16 08:31:59 2004  
  novemberrain said:

>male McTesticles? As opposed to female McTesticles

okay okay sheesh picky. I didn't need the put in male : )

>novrain - who didn't get much sleep last night, and has a sudden craving for McTesticles

Think about cheesburgers and the craving will pass




 
novemberrain Posted: Wed Jun 16 08:34:15 2004  
  addison said:
>novemberrain said:
>
>>male McTesticles? As opposed to female McTesticles
>
>okay okay sheesh picky. I didn't need the put in male : )
>

hehehe *salutes her commander* Just giving you a hard time, sir.

>>novrain - who didn't get much sleep last night, and has a sudden craving for McTesticles
>
>Think about cheesburgers and the craving will pass
>
>

I doubt it. I haven't had McDonald's in...well, far too long for my liking.


 
addi Posted: Wed Jun 16 08:42:30 2004  
  novemberrain said:

>hehehe *salutes her commander* Just giving you a hard time, sir.

LOL! I won't say it. I want to, but I won't ; )


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 14:34:44 2004  
  I think that McDonalds has finally changed from weasel meat to mice meat.

Anyway, that last full dream I remember I rode my bike by the moon like in ET and then went to a planet where I walked along this rounded path which was next to this wall of orange goo that tasted good.

Yea.

Most of my dreams that I recall at all involve me being killed by Wesley Snipes. Not Wesley Snipes playing the character Blade, I mean the man Wesley Snipes.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 16:08:10 2004  
  Most of the dreams I remember are mostly nightmares from my childhood, but I do remember that lately I've dreamt very frequently about having a child...

*wonders if her biological clock is trying to tell her something*


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 16:13:17 2004  
  Probably going to be rather difficult, being a lesbo and all.


 
libra Posted: Wed Jun 16 16:18:20 2004  
  I never remember my dreams. I hate that I can't remember them, because they would be interesting.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 16:36:01 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Probably going to be rather difficult, being a lesbo and all.

Ever heard of artificial insemination? It's this nifty little technique where you dont need to have sex with a guy to have kids...

:P~~~


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 16:38:45 2004  
  Yeah but that would really suck wouldn't it, for you and the kid.

The kid will end up asking him or herself questions about the biological father, no matter what, and you just know it's going to leave a serious dent in their identity if they don't know where they're comming from.

And for you as well, I'd think, what if you get sperm from a crappy guy.

Perhaps it would be better to just walk up to a guy you think that is attractive and tell him: "hi, I want to get pregnant but don't want the father to stick around, will you help me?" I'm pretty sure you'll find some candidates.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 16:41:08 2004  
  Well actually the sperm issue is already solved. My partner's brother (who is gay also) would donate.

That would solve the "identity" issue, as well as having a male figure and keeping it within the "family" along with the fact that then my partner's family would have legal rights to the child in case i should pass away.

I definitely dont want my parents raising my kid...


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 16:43:00 2004  
  Christophe said:
>The kid will end up asking him or herself questions about the biological father, no matter what, and you just know it's going to leave a serious dent in their identity if they don't know where they're comming from.

And as for the above issue... I know a lot of single moms whose kids never knew their biological father and who are completely fine about it. As long as there is a male figure in the vicinity (grandfather, uncle, etc) children pretty much are fine if they are provided adequate care and lots of love.



 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:08:44 2004  
  erikagm said:
>Well actually the sperm issue is already solved. My partner's brother (who is gay also) would donate.
>
>That would solve the "identity" issue, as well as having a male figure and keeping it within the "family" along with the fact that then my partner's family would have legal rights to the child in case i should pass away.
>

Yeah that's cute in a naive kind of way.

Who says your brother and that guy will be together forever?

What happens if they break up, for whatever the reason might be, and you and that guy are haunted by it for the rest of your lives, as well as the children.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:11:37 2004  
  erikagm said:
>I know a lot of single moms whose kids never knew their biological father and who are completely fine about it. As long as there is a male figure in the vicinity (grandfather, uncle, etc) children pretty much are fine if they are provided adequate care and lots of love.

Always exceptions to the rule, I know i'd want to know, no matter how many fatherfigures are around, the fatherfigure is not the point, it has nothing to do with the biological aspect.

the kid will always be looking for chracteristics in itself that it can't find in you to try and get an image of what the father looked like and how he more or less acted. It's the perfect recipe for an identity crisis.

And it's not because they say they're okay with it not to hurt their mother that they actually are.

I'm not saying all of them feel upset about it, but come on, be reasonable, you just know that most of them will be bothered by it.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:15:41 2004  
  Christophe said:

>Yeah that's cute in a naive kind of way.
>
>Who says your brother and that guy will be together forever?
>
>What happens if they break up, for whatever the reason might be, and you and that guy are haunted by it for the rest of your lives, as well as the children.

Read carefully Chris. I said my partner's brother, not my brother's partner.


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:17:38 2004  
  Speaking of which, which nobody was, I'd just like to quickly announce myself as the worst icon maker ever (see left).

And whether or not the kid is going to have psychological problems, it will probably choose them over not being born.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:17:57 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Always exceptions to the rule, I know i'd want to know, no matter how many fatherfigures are around, the fatherfigure is not the point, it has nothing to do with the biological aspect.
>
>the kid will always be looking for chracteristics in itself that it can't find in you to try and get an image of what the father looked like and how he more or less acted. It's the perfect recipe for an identity crisis.
>
>And it's not because they say they're okay with it not to hurt their mother that they actually are.
>

You're quite the devil's advocate, arent you? I'm kind of getting used to it by now though...

And as I said, the biological father, in my case, would be around, since it would be my partner's brother. Or, in case that STILL isnt clear, my partner's name is maria. her brother's name is raphael. raphael would donate the sperm.

clear enough?
>I'm not saying all of them feel upset about it, but come on, be reasonable, you just know that most of them will be bothered by it.


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:18:09 2004  
  Ugh you'll have to click on it to read.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:20:51 2004  
  LOL Zacq, your icon is great!!!

And thanks, I agree with your idea... LOL... And I truly do believe that with enough love anything can be resolved.

And as for your point, Christophe, where you say "the kid will always be looking for chracteristics in itself that it can't find in you to try and get an image of what the father looked like and how he more or less acted. It's the perfect recipe for an identity crisis"

What happens to children whose father died when they were only months old or a couple of years old? So all orphaned children of one parent become traumatized and have identity crisis?

I think it's rather the other way around, where the children that ARE traumatized are the minority.


 
addi Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:25:35 2004  
  LOL!! classic, zacq!



I think i see marsteller's banana in the background


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:25:46 2004  
  erikagm said:
>Read carefully Chris. I said my partner's brother, not my brother's partner.

Same thing in the end.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:26:51 2004  
  Zacq said:
>Ugh you'll have to click on it to read.

Haha.


The green-eyed monster of jealousy strikes again I see!


;o)


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:28:22 2004  
  erikagm said:
>You're quite the devil's advocate, arent you? I'm kind of getting used to it by now though...

I'm the devil, haven't you noticed how evil I am?

>And as I said, the biological father, in my case, would be around, since it would be my partner's brother. Or, in case that STILL isnt clear, my partner's name is maria. her brother's name is raphael. raphael would donate the sperm.

Who says you and maria will be together forever?


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:31:24 2004  
  erikagm said:
>What happens to children whose father died when they were only months old or a couple of years old? So all orphaned children of one parent become traumatized and have identity crisis?

Yes.

With perhaps a few exceptions.

Why do you think people go out looking for where their fathers crashed before they were born when doing combat missions for example. The US spends about 12 million $ a year if I remember correctly for investigating military deaths (from whatever war) and bringing the remains back.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:36:06 2004  
  Christophe said:
>erikagm said:
>>You're quite the devil's advocate, arent you? I'm kind of getting used to it by now though...
>
>I'm the devil, haven't you noticed how evil I am?
>
>>And as I said, the biological father, in my case, would be around, since it would be my partner's brother. Or, in case that STILL isnt clear, my partner's name is maria. her brother's name is raphael. raphael would donate the sperm.
>
>Who says you and maria will be together forever?


Who says -any- childs' parents are gonna stay together forever?


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:37:00 2004  
  Christophe said:
>erikagm said:
>>What happens to children whose father died when they were only months old or a couple of years old? So all orphaned children of one parent become traumatized and have identity crisis?
>
>Yes.
>
>With perhaps a few exceptions.
>
>Why do you think people go out looking for where their fathers crashed before they were born when doing combat missions for example. The US spends about 12 million $ a year if I remember correctly for investigating military deaths (from whatever war) and bringing the remains back.

That's the US. The US is no place to raise a child, mind you. Too little family values. Too high estimation of $$$


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:38:06 2004  
  erikagm said:
>Who says -any- childs' parents are gonna stay together forever?

What kind of an excuse is that?

That's completely besides the point.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:41:33 2004  
  erikagm said:
>That's the US. The US is no place to raise a child, mind you. Too little family values. Too high estimation of $$$

Again, not the point.

It just points out that there is a huge hole caused by stuff like this.

Franckly, I could somehow see how you would pick an anonymous donor, then only one party would get fucked, the kid.

But when you do this with people you know, you are putting way too much responsibility onto that person's shoulders and I think, and that's just my opinion ofcourse, that anybody who agrees to such a thing has clearly not put enough thought into it, and that for one should be enough to call it off.

Why not just adopt a kid then?


 
addi Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:47:35 2004  
  erikagm said:

>That's the US. The US is no place to raise a child, mind you. Too little family values. Too high estimation of $$$

I cringe agreeing with this (too many other connotations with the phrase family values), but as a general statement about our country you're correct.
There are great places to raise kids here, and exceptional parents raising them, but as a whole our culture has changed over the past 75 years and it's less kid and family healthy IMO


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:48:09 2004  
  Christophe said:
>erikagm said:
>>Who says -any- childs' parents are gonna stay together forever?
>
>What kind of an excuse is that?
>
>That's completely besides the point.

that is exactly the point, man. it boils down to you being scared of possible consequences while other people, like erik*(&@#$(&*, are willing to risk it 'cause shit is always alright in the end.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:50:32 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>Christophe said:
>>erikagm said:
>>>Who says -any- childs' parents are gonna stay together forever?
>>
>>What kind of an excuse is that?
>>
>>That's completely besides the point.
>
>that is exactly the point, man. it boils down to you being scared of possible consequences while other people, like erik*(&@#$(&*, are willing to risk it 'cause shit is always alright in the end.

Well, since it's a crappy world anyway, why not neuter and sterilize everybody so nobody else will have to "probably" suffer?


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:52:13 2004  
  Christophe said:

>
>Franckly, I could somehow see how you would pick an anonymous donor, then only one party would get fucked, the kid.
>
>But when you do this with people you know, you are putting way too much responsibility onto that person's shoulders and I think, and that's just my opinion ofcourse, that anybody who agrees to such a thing has clearly not put enough thought into it, and that for one should be enough to call it off.

i guess i agree w/ you here, that expecting anyone to be the father figure, if they don't want that role, is dang shitty, but... people do grow up w/ out father figures... there are lesbian couples out there raising babies... do you have a damn clue how they'll turn out? i know i don't.

>
>Why not just adopt a kid then?

solid point


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:54:12 2004  
  Asswipe said:

>>Why not just adopt a kid then?
>
>solid point

Well, the reason in my case being that, here in Mexico, a single parent can't adopt a child. And in my culture "alternative" couples are not recognized.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:54:46 2004  
  erikagm said:
>Asswipe said:
>>Christophe said:
>>>erikagm said:
>>>>Who says -any- childs' parents are gonna stay together forever?
>>>
>>>What kind of an excuse is that?
>>>
>>>That's completely besides the point.
>>
>>that is exactly the point, man. it boils down to you being scared of possible consequences while other people, like erik*(&@#$(&*, are willing to risk it 'cause shit is always alright in the end.
>
>Well, since it's a crappy world anyway, why not neuter and sterilize everybody so nobody else will have to "probably" suffer?

i'm guessing that you're talking to christophe here


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:55:20 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>that is exactly the point, man. it boils down to you being scared of possible consequences while other people, like erik*(&@#$(&*, are willing to risk it 'cause shit is always alright in the end.

I disagree.

You're not talking about some toy or doll, you're talking about lives.

The big difference between this kind of thing and "natural" parenthood is that that's just the shit that happens.

When you start bringing in people who aren't part of the relationship you are playing with huge stakes, and let's face it, chances aren't good.

Seriously, imagine that your brother or sister, whatever the case might be, is in a relationship and you donate sperm or carry the child, and they end up breaking up because of whatever reason there might be, which can turn out really nasty, as relationships don't tend to end with mutual consent and without any hard feelings.

Where would that leave you?

An added thing is that the person who gets involved into this would probably somehow see the child as his or her kid as well, which would complicate matters even more.



Get one thing straight though (no pun intended): I have nothing, absolutely nothing against gay or bisexual people, nothing, in case it comes across like that.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:55:55 2004  
  erikagm said:
>Asswipe said:
>
>>>Why not just adopt a kid then?
>>
>>solid point
>
>Well, the reason in my case being that, here in Mexico, a single parent can't adopt a child. And in my culture "alternative" couples are not recognized.

and mejico is a better place to raise a kid than the US? did you grow up in the US?


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:56:37 2004  
  erikagm said:
>Well, since it's a crappy world anyway, why not neuter and sterilize everybody so nobody else will have to "probably" suffer?

Not the point.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:57:29 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>
>i'm guessing that you're talking to christophe here


Yep. I was.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:59:43 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Asswipe said:
>>that is exactly the point, man. it boils down to you being scared of possible consequences while other people, like erik*(&@#$(&*, are willing to risk it 'cause shit is always alright in the end.
>
>I disagree.
>
>You're not talking about some toy or doll, you're talking about lives.
>
>The big difference between this kind of thing and "natural" parenthood is that that's just the shit that happens.
>
>When you start bringing in people who aren't part of the relationship you are playing with huge stakes, and let's face it, chances aren't good.
>
>Seriously, imagine that your brother or sister, whatever the case might be, is in a relationship and you donate sperm or carry the child, and they end up breaking up because of whatever reason there might be, which can turn out really nasty, as relationships don't tend to end with mutual consent and without any hard feelings.
>
>Where would that leave you?
>

i would not donate my sperm to anyone who believed i would have any role in raising the child. so i would not care in the slightest... i've my own life. i'd try to help out where i could, but i'd only go into it if the parents did not expect a minute of help from me.

>An added thing is that the person who gets involved into this would probably somehow see the child as his or her kid as well, which would complicate matters even more.
>
>
>
>Get one thing straight though (no pun intended): I have nothing, absolutely nothing against gay or bisexual people, nothing, in case it comes across like that.

i don't think you're coming across like that, i think you're coming across as someone pretending to know the truth about raising a child.


 
Mouse Posted: Wed Jun 16 17:59:47 2004  
  Christophe said:
>I'm the devil, haven't you noticed how evil I am?
>
Cool! I always wanted to meet the the devil. Because, as it was once said, "The devil is our friend!"

It doesn't trouble me to think that there are things about me that are like my mother and I'll never know.
If your condition for bringing a child into the world is that the parents be together 'forever', then we're on the short road to extinction. I'm happy with the sixteen years I got, it's better than nothing.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:00:49 2004  
  Christophe said:
>erikagm said:
>>Well, since it's a crappy world anyway, why not neuter and sterilize everybody so nobody else will have to "probably" suffer?
>
>Not the point.

that is the point, your excuses are all based on protecting a child from the harsh world out there while no one is safe from it, so as erika said, "why not neuter and sterilize everybody so nobody else will have to "probably" suffer"

get it?


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:02:06 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>i don't think you're coming across like that, i think you're coming across as someone pretending to know the truth about raising a child.

I don't.

But from my own experience with divorced parents I can at least try to imagine what it would be like not to know the other one and have that piece of my life cut out.


I'm just giving my point of view on all of this.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:02:48 2004  
  Christophe said:
>The big difference between this kind of thing and "natural" parenthood is that that's just the shit that happens.

***And in these cases, since "shit" "just happened" is where usually things go wrong. What I'm talking about is something that has been carefully discussed during the 5 years that we've already been together.

>An added thing is that the person who gets involved into this would probably somehow see the child as his or her kid as well, which would complicate matters even more.
>
*** The way raphael would be involved in this, is that he would be the child's "uncle". The only reason that a blood relative is used is because if I die, there would be no other way for maria to claim the child as a part of her family (by having raphael do so) in case I pass away, since I most definitely would want the custody to pass to her.
>
>Get one thing straight though (no pun intended): I have nothing, absolutely nothing against gay or bisexual people, nothing, in case it comes across like that.

And I'm quite sure you didnt mean it to come out that way. My point is you tend to be too negative about everything. You're like the voice of everything that can go wrong. In any case. Sometimes I even wonder how you've managed to live so long if you really thing that "everything can go terribly wrong" in all cases.

If I had to live with the way you think, I'd probably be a recluse watching nothing but "I love Lucy" reruns...


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:05:45 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>that is the point, your excuses are all based on protecting a child from the harsh world out there while no one is safe from it, so as erika said, "why not neuter and sterilize everybody so nobody else will have to "probably" suffer"
>
>get it?

It's not about excuses.

It's about not creating any extra problems.

Getting a child is a selfish, and the major reason why I keep on reacting to this is because erika thinks that there will be no impact on the child because of the situation whatsoever, and that is something I do not agree with at all.

It's very naive, again, from my point of view, to think like that and a pretty fucked up base to create a life from.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:08:17 2004  
  Asswipe said:

>and mejico is a better place to raise a kid than the US? did you grow up in the US?

No, but I have several cousins that did, and whom had wonderful parents (I spent a full year living with them at one point) and while there is a wonderful economic standard of living there, parents in the US (not all, mind you) try to overcompensate their children with material stuff because they have no time to spend with them.

I'm not saying that ALL the US in general is a bad place to live, but I've found that Mexico (except for the big Metropolises) has a lower crime rate, safer cities and a nice environment.

This coming from someone who fervently wanted to move to the US until she seriously thought about having and raising a child.

I'm not against the US. I just think that there are a lot more laid back places to raise a kid... Somewhere where you actually know your neighbors and can depend on them for support. A place where children can still play out on the street until dark without fear of kidnappers or drug dealers or stuff of the sort.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:11:39 2004  
  erikagm said:
>Christophe said:
>>The big difference between this kind of thing and "natural" parenthood is that that's just the shit that happens.
>
>***And in these cases, since "shit" "just happened" is where usually things go wrong. What I'm talking about is something that has been carefully discussed during the 5 years that we've already been together.

How old are you?

Let's say you have around 70-80 years to go, what's 5 years compared to that?

My point is that it's fine within a relationship because you both know what you're in for and get the same deal, the problem starts I think when you start bringing people in who have absolutely nothing to do with the relationship.

>The way raphael would be involved in this, is that he would be the child's "uncle". The only reason that a blood relative is used is because if I die, there would be no other way for maria to claim the child as a part of her family (by having raphael do so) in case I pass away, since I most definitely would want the custody to pass to her.

Who will make sure to control raphael's feelings about the kid?

>And I'm quite sure you didnt mean it to come out that way. My point is you tend to be too negative about everything.

You call it negative, other people call it pessimistic, I call it realistic.

The world isn't a fantasy world well everything "will work out".

>You're like the voice of everything that can go wrong. In any case. Sometimes I even wonder how you've managed to live so long if you really thing that "everything can go terribly wrong" in all cases.

Perhaps that's the reason I live the way I do now.

Who do you think will get the most out of life, somebody who thinks everything will work out anyway and gets disappointed all the time or somebody who tries to be prepared for as much as he can and takes everything he or she can think of into account and is pleasantly surprised when things happen to turn out better.

>If I had to live with the way you think, I'd probably be a recluse watching nothing but "I love Lucy" reruns...

It works fine for me.

I've said it so many times before, and here it goes again: don't mistake my realism for pessimism.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:11:56 2004  
  Christophe said:
>
>It's not about excuses.
>
>It's about not creating any extra problems.
>
>Getting a child is a selfish, and the major reason why I keep on reacting to this is because erika thinks that there will be no impact on the child because of the situation whatsoever, and that is something I do not agree with at all.
>
>It's very naive, again, from my point of view, to think like that and a pretty fucked up base to create a life from.

Ok you come from divorced parents, right?

Well, this is coming from someone whose parents are STILL together.

HAVING YOUR PARENTS TOGETHER IS NOT A GUARANTEE THAT THINGS WILL GO RIGHT.

My brother turned into a junkie, and my sister is a neurotic. All thanks to parents who "didnt want to split up for the sake of their kids" but ended up doing them more harm than good by making their children watch them fight without end all the time. At times coming to blows.

I'm talking about having to lock my brother and sister up in my room and put the music at full blast so they wouldnt hear.

I'm talking about praying to God that one of them would just leave or die so we could have some peace.

Having a "normal" family is no guarantee of anything.

The most you can do is your best, and your best is always enough.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:14:57 2004  
  erikagm said:
>I'm not against the US. I just think that there are a lot more laid back places to raise a kid... Somewhere where you actually know your neighbors and can depend on them for support. A place where children can still play out on the street until dark without fear of kidnappers or drug dealers or stuff of the sort.

Stuff like that is everywhere.

What do you want to do, go live with your kids in the australian outback in town with 30 inhabitants so they'll be sorry for the rest of their lives because they couldn't get a date without running the risk of inbreeding?

Note the sarcasm please before you get on your horse to charge into battle against me.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:15:44 2004  
  Christophe:

I guess the reason I feel so strongly about your opinions is because I see myself reflected in you, 5 years ago.

I used to think that the glass wasnt half full or half empty, but that the glass was just too damn big.

I used to believe as well that I would rather be pleasantly surprised by something than disappointed.

I found that it wasn't a very nice way to spend my life.

That I what I was doing, was making my life a hell, instead of a heaven.

Worrying about things all the time doesn't make them better.

And I'm sorry you suffered so much because your parents split up. I suffered too much from my parents staying together. That's why I was the way I was.

I just hope, that like myself, you'll grow out of it.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:18:17 2004  
  Christophe said:

>It's not about excuses.
>
>It's about not creating any extra problems.

>
>Getting a child is a selfish, and the major reason why I keep on reacting to this is because erika thinks that there will be no impact on the child because of the situation whatsoever, and that is something I do not agree with at all.

i do not think erika would disagree w/ you. of course the child, raised by two woman, rather than a woman and a man will turn out differently, it will have an impact, but is it necessarily a negative one? i don't know, neither do you.


>
>It's very naive, again, from my point of view, to think like that and a pretty fucked up base to create a life from.

how is creating life a selfish act?


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:19:04 2004  
  erikagm said:
>Ok you come from divorced parents, right?
>
>Well, this is coming from someone whose parents are STILL together.
>
>HAVING YOUR PARENTS TOGETHER IS NOT A GUARANTEE THAT THINGS WILL GO RIGHT.

Where did I say that, and again, how is that a point to the fact that the situation you're planning to create will not impact the child?

I only used the divorce thing to point out that I can at least begin to imagine what it would be like, nothing more, nothing less.

>My brother turned into a junkie, and my sister is a neurotic. All thanks to parents who "didnt want to split up f
for the sake of their kids"

I don't believe in eternal love, so I don't believe in marriage or staying together either.

You'll probably say it's because of my parents. It's not. If it was I'd say so as well.

>but ended up doing them more harm than good by making their children watch them fight without end all the time. At times coming to blows.

I know what you're talking about.

>I'm talking about having to lock my brother and sister up in my room and put the music at full blast so they wouldnt hear.

I know.

>Having a "normal" family is no guarantee of anything.

Never said it was, not the point.

>The most you can do is your best, and your best is always enough.

Yeah sure that's all very nice, but again, not the point, and your best isn't always enough. It might be enough for you not having to feel guilty about anything because you "did your best", fair enough, but if your best is crap it will still stink.


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:23:43 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>how is creating life a selfish act?

Think how utterly, evilly selfish it is to have a child. Think of it! "Oh, honey, wouldn't a baby just be splendid? With its little hands, and its little feet and its little arms and legs and face and smile. Oh, we have to have one." Great, and once it's done, here is another little human to have to grow and learn what a sick collection of animals it is into which he's been born; who has to learn the pointlessness of the asinine cycle of human life; the pain and unhappiness that accompany; the stupidity of the majority; the outrage of old age and death; the unfair circumstances of competition amongst organisms; the injustice of suffering, the absurdity of doctrines and ideologies; the cold blade of war; the inner demons of hunger, desire, self-loathing; who will be taught to hate and feel shame and fear and remorse, regret, guilt; who will one day suck from nonexistence another little conscious body to continue the hideous lineage of incessant dark-humor; and who will one day die, wrapped in a urine-stained, hospital-issued death-shroud, plugged into beeping, blipping machines, fed through dripping bags armed with needles and at the mercy of smart-ass little nurses, who know not yet that they, too, will be faced with this end. What more horrific and vile an act than that of having a child? There can be none. Torture is not worse, murder is not worse, nor rape or anything else, because it is birth that precludes them all. Were it not for birth, none of these other atrocities would have even a chance to be performed. It is the miracle of birth and life that drowns the light of the world, and it is that selfish obeyance of desire that is hung over the heads of all parents in the look of disgust on their disaffected teenager's face. How can one repay an infinite offense? - Shane Smith

Sorry just had to do it.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:23:45 2004  
  Well, I dont know how you feel about -your- personal best, but my personal best isn't going to be crappy.

And again... I have found that thinking the way you do (or the way I did) only makes things turn out just the way you expect them to... horribly


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:26:27 2004  
  erikagm said:
>I guess the reason I feel so strongly about your opinions is because I see myself reflected in you, 5 years ago.

Don't think that too quickly.

>I used to think that the glass wasnt half full or half empty, but that the glass was just too damn big.

I don't, I just see to it that it doesn't get pushed over because of some over-enthousiastic happy happy joy joy-moment.

>I used to believe as well that I would rather be pleasantly surprised by something than disappointed.

I still do and I don't see any change for it to change either.

You can give me all the crap you want about it, and that I will change and what not, that's your opinion, fine, but I'm pretty certain that it'll stay like this because there is no reason not to.

>I found that it wasn't a very nice way to spend my life.

I can handle it.

>That I what I was doing, was making my life a hell, instead of a heaven.

Life isn't hell, life isn't heaven.

It's not because I think the way I do that I'm unhappy or whatever. Not at all.

Said it in some other thread only yesterday, I'm happy with my life.

>Worrying about things all the time doesn't make them better.

I don't worry about too much actually, but I do tend to take as much into account as I can, which is something else than worrying.


Why do people see it as "worrying" when you question something?

>And I'm sorry you suffered so much because your parents split up.

I didn't suffer. Where did I say I suffered from it?

I make no problem out of it and never said anywhere I did.

It was, again, just to show that i can somehow begin to imagine what it must be like. Nothing more.

I didn't ask for your pity or anything because there is no need for it.

I wouldn't want my parents to be together if I had the choice to. This is much more interesting.

>I suffered too much from my parents staying together. That's why I was the way I was.

You say you were depressed, I am not.

>I just hope, that like myself, you'll grow out of it.


Don't give me that crap, seriously.

I know you probably mean well, but at least give me some credit.

In case you haven't noticed, I think long and hard about just about anything really, and certainly about how I percieve the world, my life, and how I intend to live it.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:26:38 2004  
  Zacq said:
>Asswipe said:
>>how is creating life a selfish act?
>
>Think how utterly, evilly selfish it is to have a child. Think of it! "Oh, honey, wouldn't a baby just be splendid? With its little hands, and its little feet and its little arms and legs and face and smile. Oh, we have to have one." Great, and once it's done, here is another little human to have to grow and learn what a sick collection of animals it is into which he's been born; who has to learn the pointlessness of the asinine cycle of human life; the pain and unhappiness that accompany; the stupidity of the majority; the outrage of old age and death; the unfair circumstances of competition amongst organisms; the injustice of suffering, the absurdity of doctrines and ideologies; the cold blade of war; the inner demons of hunger, desire, self-loathing; who will be taught to hate and feel shame and fear and remorse, regret, guilt; who will one day suck from nonexistence another little conscious body to continue the hideous lineage of incessant dark-humor; and who will one day die, wrapped in a urine-stained, hospital-issued death-shroud, plugged into beeping, blipping machines, fed through dripping bags armed with needles and at the mercy of smart-ass little nurses, who know not yet that they, too, will be faced with this end. What more horrific and vile an act than that of having a child? There can be none. Torture is not worse, murder is not worse, nor rape or anything else, because it is birth that precludes them all. Were it not for birth, none of these other atrocities would have even a chance to be performed. It is the miracle of birth and life that drowns the light of the world, and it is that selfish obeyance of desire that is hung over the heads of all parents in the look of disgust on their disaffected teenager's face. How can one repay an infinite offense? - Shane Smith
>
>Sorry just had to do it.


LOL. Which brings me to my point once more... Thinking like that will bring the human race to extinction... Not that that would be so bad... (for the planet) but think also of all the many joys you experienced... A warm hug, a loving smile, the first time you managed to ride a bike, the first time you tasted the -perfect- flavor of ice cream. Sure, we do suffer, but we also have many and plentiful opportunities for happiness by living.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:27:47 2004  
  Zacq said:
>Asswipe said:
>>how is creating life a selfish act?
>
>Think how utterly, evilly selfish it is to have a child. Think of it! "Oh, honey, wouldn't a baby just be splendid? With its little hands, and its little feet and its little arms and legs and face and smile. Oh, we have to have one." Great, and once it's done, here is another little human to have to grow and learn what a sick collection of animals it is into which he's been born; who has to learn the pointlessness of the asinine cycle of human life; the pain and unhappiness that accompany; the stupidity of the majority; the outrage of old age and death; the unfair circumstances of competition amongst organisms; the injustice of suffering, the absurdity of doctrines and ideologies; the cold blade of war; the inner demons of hunger, desire, self-loathing; who will be taught to hate and feel shame and fear and remorse, regret, guilt; who will one day suck from nonexistence another little conscious body to continue the hideous lineage of incessant dark-humor; and who will one day die, wrapped in a urine-stained, hospital-issued death-shroud, plugged into beeping, blipping machines, fed through dripping bags armed with needles and at the mercy of smart-ass little nurses, who know not yet that they, too, will be faced with this end. What more horrific and vile an act than that of having a child? There can be none. Torture is not worse, murder is not worse, nor rape or anything else, because it is birth that precludes them all. Were it not for birth, none of these other atrocities would have even a chance to be performed. It is the miracle of birth and life that drowns the light of the world, and it is that selfish obeyance of desire that is hung over the heads of all parents in the look of disgust on their disaffected teenager's face. How can one repay an infinite offense? - Shane Smith
>
>Sorry just had to do it.

apoligize to yourself if you believe that shit, but you're still alive, so you don't.

some look at the world and see possibility


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:30:31 2004  
  erikagm said:
>Well, I dont know how you feel about -your- personal best, but my personal best isn't going to be crappy.

Didn't say that it would.

I stated that doing your "best" isn't always automaticly "enough".

>And again... I have found that thinking the way you do (or the way I did) only makes things turn out just the way you expect them to... horribly

Hmm. Without wanting to sound too cocky; I think that up to this point I have had a reasonably good/succesful life about which I wouldn't change a single thing, honnestly, nothing. I am completely satisfied with how I live and who I am. How many people can say that?

And I'm not intending to change it either.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:31:18 2004  
  chris... there is far more than comes w/ your view of reality than just "being prepared for the worse". firstly, you're wrong, there's no way to know in foresight what will happen, ever. causes do not tell us their effects until they occur, and even then, especially w/ human/human interaction, there are so many causes to weed through, it can take quite some time. you learn from the past, by examining after living, not guessing at possibilities... those are endless.


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:31:40 2004  
  Two things:

One, I was kidding. I just found the perfect response to someone saying is bringing life into the world selfish.

Two, it's not necessary to quote the entire thing over and over.


 
Mouse Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:32:04 2004  
  Somebody, help! My thread has been hijacked!


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:34:14 2004  
  Christophe said:
>erikagm said:
>>Well, I dont know how you feel about -your- personal best, but my personal best isn't going to be crappy.
>
>Didn't say that it would.
>
>I stated that doing your "best" isn't always automaticly "enough".
>
>>And again... I have found that thinking the way you do (or the way I did) only makes things turn out just the way you expect them to... horribly
>
>Hmm. Without wanting to sound too cocky; I think that up to this point I have had a reasonably good/succesful life about which I wouldn't change a single thing, honnestly, nothing. I am completely satisfied with how I live and who I am. How many people can say that?
>

quite a number of people at your age can say that when they have their lives mapped out for them.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:34:30 2004  
  erikagm said:
>LOL. Which brings me to my point once more... Thinking like that will bring the human race to extinction...

And what makes you into the savior of the human race? Why would that be your job?

So you're saying you aren't a kid for yourself but just to save the human race?

>Not that that would be so bad... (for the planet) but think also of all the many joys you experienced... A warm hug, a loving smile, the first time you managed to ride a bike, the first time you tasted the -perfect- flavor of ice cream. Sure, we do suffer, but we also have many and plentiful opportunities for happiness by living.

I believe in choice.

A kid didn't have the choice about comming into the world or not, therefor I am against it.

It's not because you enjoy it or see it as "worth the cost" your kid will as well.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:36:30 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>chris... there is far more than comes w/ your view of reality than just "being prepared for the worse". firstly, you're wrong, there's no way to know in foresight what will happen, ever. causes do not tell us their effects until they occur, and even then, especially w/ human/human interaction, there are so many causes to weed through, it can take quite some time. you learn from the past, by examining after living, not guessing at possibilities... those are endless.

Fair enough.

The more obvious shit you see comming from kilometres away though, if you can't, I can, and have done so time and time again.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:37:39 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>quite a number of people at your age can say that when they have their lives mapped out for them.

And what do you mean by that?

What does my future have to do with how satisfied I am with my past up to this point.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:38:39 2004  
  Christophe said:

>Yeah sure that's all very nice, but again, not the point, and your best isn't always enough. It might be enough for you not having to feel guilty about anything because you "did your best", fair enough, but if your best is crap it will still stink.

What I meant to say is, I do not intend to "do my best" just so "I won't have to feel guilty about everything" because my best will be guided towards making sure that my child will be as happy as he/she can be, despite the world we live in, not thanks to it.


(and this thread is just another example of threads that evolve into something completely different than their original intent)


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:38:40 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Asswipe said:
>>quite a number of people at your age can say that when they have their lives mapped out for them.
>
>And what do you mean by that?
>
>What does my future have to do with how satisfied I am with my past up to this point.

what was the biggest choice you ever had to make?


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:40:41 2004  
  erikagm said:
>What I meant to say is, I do not intend to "do my best" just so "I won't have to feel guilty about everything" because my best will be guided towards making sure that my child will be as happy as he/she can be, despite the world we live in, not thanks to it.

You cannot protect your child from the world.

Very few parents know the real thoughts and character of their kids, or their problems, and even if they did they wouldn't be able to change shit about 90% of them.

>(and this thread is just another example of threads that evolve into something completely different than their original intent)

Interesting, isn't it.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:41:35 2004  
  Christophe said:

>Hmm. Without wanting to sound too cocky; I think that up to this point I have had a reasonably good/succesful life about which I wouldn't change a single thing, honnestly, nothing. I am completely satisfied with how I live and who I am. How many people can say that?
>
>And I'm not intending to change it either.

If you were really truly satisfied with the life you've lived up to this point, you wouldnt be trying to discourage/dissuade/talk out of (or however you want to call it) someone that wants to bring a child into this world with the arguments that anything and everything can go wrong.



 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:42:32 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>what was the biggest choice you ever had to make?

That's a personal thing involving the situation with my family history which I do not intend to post on the internet.

Think what you want about me, but I think you have me wrong.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:42:41 2004  
  Zacq said:
>Two things:
>
>One, I was kidding. I just found the perfect response to someone saying is bringing life into the world selfish.
>
>Two, it's not necessary to quote the entire thing over and over.

One.
I know you were kidding, which is why I didnt reply as harshly as I would have if I thought you actually believed in that stuff.

Two.

I apologize. I quoted the thing so I could read it while I typed and forgot to erase it before posting.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:44:50 2004  
  Christophe said:
>And what makes you into the savior of the human race? Why would that be your job?

*** I never -said- I was the savior of the human race... If I did, please quote me and I'll promptly apologize for it.
>
>So you're saying you aren't a kid for yourself but just to save the human race?

*** Again, quote me on it and I'll be sure to make amends.

>
>>Not that that would be so bad... (for the planet) but think also of all the many joys you experienced... A warm hug, a loving smile, the first time you managed to ride a bike, the first time you tasted the -perfect- flavor of ice cream. Sure, we do suffer, but we also have many and plentiful opportunities for happiness by living.
>
>I believe in choice.
>
>A kid didn't have the choice about comming into the world or not, therefor I am against it.
>
>It's not because you enjoy it or see it as "worth the cost" your kid will as well.

*** So you're honestly saying, that if you had been -given- a choice to be born or not (which i can't possibly see how that could be done, but oh well...) you would have chosen NOT to live?


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:46:15 2004  
  erikagm said:
>If you were really truly satisfied with the life you've lived up to this point, you wouldnt be trying to discourage/dissuade/talk out of (or however you want to call it) someone that wants to bring a child into this world with the arguments that anything and everything can go wrong.

I am truly satisfied.

I'm not trying to discourage you, it's none of my bussiness, I'm only pointing some stuff out the way I see them, if you see what I say as discouraging you should ask yourself some serious questions before going any further with your childcreation-program.

The point being that bringing life into the world is a selfish thing which the life itself has no choice about and didn't ask and as a human being you have the power to decide if you want to create life or not, it's not like you're like a rabit fucking as much as it can without knowing that it'll get smaller bunnies as a result.

You are consciously deciding about something which isn't your call to make when you bring somebody into the world.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:48:51 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Asswipe said:
>>what was the biggest choice you ever had to make?
>
>That's a personal thing involving the situation with my family history which I do not intend to post on the internet.
>
>Think what you want about me, but I think you have me wrong.

well, i do not think about you very much at all, but my questioning was aimed to get a point across. i'm a firm believer in the idea that we can, and should, only be trully proud of our conscious choices which directly lead us to where we want to be. above you stated that you are very happy w/ your life up to where you are now... my issue w/ that is, what grand choices have you made to get you there? what have you done that you're proud of? don't answer me, i wouldn't answer me. but answer this: did you base your "happyness w/ your own life" judgement on the decisions that got you there?



 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:50:30 2004  
  erikagm said:
>>So you're saying you aren't a kid for yourself but just to save the human race?
>
>*** Again, quote me on it and I'll be sure to make amends.

So you agree it's a selfish act?

You can't do it for the kid, it didn't ask for any of it and if you're not doing it for the human race, what's left?

>*** So you're honestly saying, that if you had been -given- a choice to be born or not (which i can't possibly see how that could be done, but oh well...) you would have chosen NOT to live?

Again, that's not the point.

I am satisfied with my life, however, there is no way to compare my life to that that the kid would come to have so my answer to that question doesn't give an answer to anything.

You'll find just as much people who would rather not have been born as people who are happy they're born.


That's like saying I believe you'll be happy living in the US (for example) and you have to, you don't have any choice about it whatsoever, nothing; and I know it's good for you because some other people are happy with it.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:51:25 2004  
  Christophe said:
>I am truly satisfied.
>
>I'm not trying to discourage you, it's none of my bussiness, I'm only pointing some stuff out the way I see them, if you see what I say as discouraging you should ask yourself some serious questions before going any further with your childcreation-program.

***Me feels like a breeding machine now... *cries*
>
*sniffles*

And no, I'm not discouraged, but I -do- feel as if you're trying to convince me to change my mind, which obviously, I'll will do as soon as you change yours. Hence, never. LOL



 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:52:22 2004  
  Actually asswipe, happiness isn't really that tough. There is a simple way to look at things.

(the following is pasted in from where it is located in myGT, as written by me)

Problems. We all have them. The only reason problems are a bad thing are because we treat them like a bad thing. Generally, when someone has a problem, one of these three things is true.

1. They can't fix it.
2. They can fix it but won't.
3. They're in the process of fixing.

If number one is true, there is no reason to be upset. If you cannot fix something, there is no reason to be angry about it. The anger will not change anything about the situation for the better. If number two is true, then you're mad at yourself for not fixing it, and need to overcome your laziness. If number three is true, there is no reason to be upset. You are fixing your problem. Be happy.

There you have it - a simple, short explanation for why most anger is pointless and why you're stressing yourself out for no reason.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:55:05 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>well, i do not think about you very much at all,

Haha, the feeling is mutual ;o)

>but my questioning was aimed to get a point across. i'm a firm believer in the idea that we can, and should, only be trully proud of our conscious choices which directly lead us to where we want to be.

Everything you ever did has lead you to where you are.

>above you stated that you are very happy w/ your life up to where you are now... my issue w/ that is, what grand choices have you made to get you there? what have you done that you're proud of? don't answer me, i wouldn't answer me.

What didn't I do and who are you to judge that?

>but answer this: did you base your "happyness w/ your own life" judgement on the decisions that got you there?

I base my contentment with it on the fact that there is nothing from my point of view at least not to be happy about.

And I don't get what you're trying to get at with the decision thing either, everything you do or don't do is a decision that will lead up to something else.

Give me an example of something you see as a fitting decision, perhaps I'll understand what you're getting at then.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 18:58:04 2004  
  erikagm said:
>And no, I'm not discouraged, but I -do- feel as if you're trying to convince me to change my mind

I'm not, just pointing out what i think of it.

>Which obviously, I'll will do as soon as you change yours. Hence, never. LOL

My changing of opinion has nothing to do with you changing yours and vice versa as far as I know.

I don't care if you change your opinion or not, I don't care if you take anything I say here into account or not, that's all up to you, I'm just giving my point of view for whoever cares about it.

And I like to actually read my thoughts once in a while as well, so I care enough to type them out, and that's all the reason I need for it.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:01:17 2004  
  Christophe said:
>erikagm said:
>>>So you're saying you aren't a kid for yourself but just to save the human race?
>>
>>*** Again, quote me on it and I'll be sure to make amends.
>
>So you agree it's a selfish act?

No, I was trying to point out the fact that you're putting words I -did not- day into my mouth.
>
>You can't do it for the kid, it didn't ask for any of it and if you're not doing it for the human race, what's left?
>
***What's the point of anything? To live, to love, to be loved and to die. No point whatsoever.

>>*** So you're honestly saying, that if you had been -given- a choice to be born or not (which i can't possibly see how that could be done, but oh well...) you would have chosen NOT to live?
>
>Again, that's not the point.
>
*** And once again, you cleverly weasel yourself out of a question.

>I am satisfied with my life, however, there is no way to compare my life to that that the kid would come to have so my answer to that question doesn't give an answer to anything.
>
>You'll find just as much people who would rather not have been born as people who are happy they're born.
>
*** I was very unhappy I had been born until about, as I said, about 5 years ago. Now I've changed my mind. It's called growing up. Coping.
>
>That's like saying I believe you'll be happy living in the US (for example) and you have to, you don't have any choice about it whatsoever, nothing; and I know it's good for you because some other people are happy with it.

Bad example.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:01:29 2004  
  Zacq said:
>Problems. We all have them. The only reason problems are a bad thing are because we treat them like a bad thing. Generally, when someone has a problem, one of these three things is true.
>
>1. They can't fix it.
>2. They can fix it but won't.
>3. They're in the process of fixing.
>
>If number one is true, there is no reason to be upset. If you cannot fix something, there is no reason to be angry about it. The anger will not change anything about the situation for the better. If number two is true, then you're mad at yourself for not fixing it, and need to overcome your laziness. If number three is true, there is no reason to be upset. You are fixing your problem. Be happy.
>
>There you have it - a simple, short explanation for why most anger is pointless and why you're stressing yourself out for no reason.

Agreed.

I don't give a fuck about people who fuck up their lives because of their own fault.

For example: wanna be a junk? Fine but don't bother me with it and once you start ODing don't expect me to get you to a hospital because all you'll get from me is an "I told you so".

If something bothers you, fix it. If you can't fix it, what's the point in getting yourself pissed more and more because of it. And if you're in the process of fixing it, kudos to you, another reason to feel good about yourself since you're dealing with the shit life throws at you.



Yet another thing I'll have to steal from you Zacq, I'll make sure to mention you if I ever use it though ;o)


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:04:40 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Yet another thing I'll have to steal from you Zacq, I'll make sure to mention you if I ever use it though ;o)

Remember, pronounce Zacq like you would Zok.

And because of my thing about problems, the only time I'm ever unhappy is when the Boston Red Sox lose. Like last night... :{


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:06:14 2004  
  erikagm said:
>No, I was trying to point out the fact that you're putting words I -did not- day into my mouth.

What are your reasons for bringing a child into the world then?

And I didn't put any words into your mouth, I was asking a question.

What other reason could there be except the ones I mentioned. Please, enlighten me.

>***What's the point of anything? To live, to love, to be loved and to die. No point whatsoever.

Ah yes, that's a logical reason to get a kid, just for the fun of it.

>*** I was very unhappy I had been born until about, as I said, about 5 years ago. Now I've changed my mind. It's called growing up. Coping.

Good for you, but it has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Chances could be that tomorrow you'll wish you were dead/never born once more.

>>That's like saying I believe you'll be happy living in the US (for example) and you have to, you don't have any choice about it whatsoever, nothing; and I know it's good for you because some other people are happy with it.
>
>Bad example.

I don't think it is.

You force the kid to live life without the kid having any choice about it because you are convinced you'll be able to offer it a happy life.

Who are you to make that call?


And who am I to say it won't happen? Not the right person, just like you aren't the right person to say otherwise, nobody is.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:08:52 2004  
  Anyway, I'm outta here, got to get some sleep.

Don't abuse the fact that I cannot defend my viewpoints while asleep ;o)


Good night.


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:08:53 2004  
  Everybody better have kids while they can. As much as it seems to be a violation of human rights in China, it will eventually be necessary for the world to limit births so that humans can continue to live on this planet.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:10:10 2004  
  Christophe said:
>
>You force the kid to live life without the kid having any choice about it because you are convinced you'll be able to offer it a happy life.
>
>Who are you to make that call?
>
*** Well, as soon as you can let me know how I can ask an unborn child if he/she wants to be born, I'll take your opinions on the subject into account.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:13:35 2004  
  Didnt this thread start out about dreams lol?


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:15:51 2004  
  Sorry Choke I had to.

No other pictures fit there well.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:16:45 2004  
  meshuggah said:
>Didnt this thread start out about dreams lol?

Strangely enough, yes...

And I'm sorry to say the divergence was caused by me. LOL

I very innocently said that I had dreamt I was having a child... But then Chris was harsh enough to ask how I could have a child since I'm a lesbian, then the debate about "you don't have the right to decide for your unborn child if he should be born or not" started...



 
Mesh Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:18:41 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Anyway, I'm outta here, got to get some sleep.
>
>Don't abuse the fact that I cannot defend my viewpoints while asleep ;o)
>
>
>Good night.


Chris, youre viewpoints are completely wrong and misguided. DAMN THEM TO HELL YOUNG MAN!!!!!!!






PS I didnt actually read any of this thread yet so I dont know your viewpoints, I just thought I would take that oppurtunity ;)


 
Kira Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:21:18 2004  
  I hope Christophe dreams about getting married and having a bunch of kids.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:23:52 2004  
  Sailovzi said:
>I hope Christophe dreams about getting married and having a bunch of kids.


LOL Nice one Sailovzi!!!


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:24:33 2004  
  I hope he dreams about self-castration.



Because thats just funny. Have you seen it done LOL?!?!?


Pure comedic genius, self-castration is.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:27:59 2004  
  ROTFLOL Mesh!!!!!


 
Mouse Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:29:22 2004  
  meshuggah said:
>I hope he dreams about self-castration.
>
>
>
>Because thats just funny. Have you seen it done LOL?!?!?
>
>
>Pure comedic genius, self-castration is.

Mesh dear, you're an odd duck. :P
How is everyone this (insert time of day here)?


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:30:08 2004  
  Zacq said:
>Actually asswipe, happiness isn't really that tough. There is a simple way to look at things.
>
>(the following is pasted in from where it is located in myGT, as written by me)
>
>Problems. We all have them. The only reason problems are a bad thing are because we treat them like a bad thing. Generally, when someone has a problem, one of these three things is true.
>
>1. They can't fix it.
>2. They can fix it but won't.
>3. They're in the process of fixing.
>
>If number one is true, there is no reason to be upset. If you cannot fix something, there is no reason to be angry about it. The anger will not change anything about the situation for the better. If number two is true, then you're mad at yourself for not fixing it, and need to overcome your laziness. If number three is true, there is no reason to be upset. You are fixing your problem. Be happy.
>
>There you have it - a simple, short explanation for why most anger is pointless and why you're stressing yourself out for no reason.

by being "happy", i meant, "proud". i just have a hard time imagining most of us can say anything that we'd be seriously proud of having accomplished. personally, i've drifted to where i've gotten, i don't feel like i've done a damn thing. i think luck effects me moreso than anything.

and, besides writing about a terribly vague subject, you forget the grey areas in your solution, you forget about the intricacies out there involved in figuring yourself out and discovering what you want out of the world. not all problems are so cut and dry.

only when i trully want something and work hard to achieve it will i feel like i've accomplished anything at all.

i don't care about the runoff effect that i may have, i want to achieve something that i was aiming for. i have no goals, i have no glory.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:32:37 2004  
  Amen to that, asswipe.


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:35:38 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>and, besides writing about a terribly vague subject, you forget the grey areas in your solution, you forget about the intricacies out there involved in figuring yourself out and discovering what you want out of the world. not all problems are so cut and dry.

Well I'm kind of an odd example in that I know exactly what I want from the world and so it makes things a lot simpler.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:36:37 2004  
  Zacq said:
>Asswipe said:
>>and, besides writing about a terribly vague subject, you forget the grey areas in your solution, you forget about the intricacies out there involved in figuring yourself out and discovering what you want out of the world. not all problems are so cut and dry.
>
>Well I'm kind of an odd example in that I know exactly what I want from the world and so it makes things a lot simpler.

please share


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:37:00 2004  
  i concurr...

(don't you all -love- that word? say it with me... concurr... it rolls off your tongue with such ease...)

(yes I know I'm crazy... The lady in the mirror keeps telling me so every day)


 
Mouse Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:39:42 2004  
  erikagm said:
>i concurr...
>
>(don't you all -love- that word? say it with me... concurr... it rolls off your tongue with such ease...)
>
>(yes I know I'm crazy... The lady in the mirror keeps telling me so every day)

*follows along* "Concurr."
You sound like me. :P


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:40:45 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>please share

This is gonna make me sound really bullshitty but I can't tell you. Well I could but you wouldn't understand.

Though you could figure it through logic based on stuff I've said in the past, but few people ever notice.

Just assume that I really am always happy.


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:43:50 2004  
  Zacq said:
>Asswipe said:
>>please share
>
>This is gonna make me sound really bullshitty but I can't tell you. Well I could but you wouldn't understand.
>
>Though you could figure it through logic based on stuff I've said in the past, but few people ever notice.
>
>Just assume that I really am always happy.

politics? government?


 
Asswipe Posted: Wed Jun 16 19:44:39 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>Zacq said:
>>Asswipe said:
>>>please share
>>
>>This is gonna make me sound really bullshitty but I can't tell you. Well I could but you wouldn't understand.
>>
>>Though you could figure it through logic based on stuff I've said in the past, but few people ever notice.
>>
>>Just assume that I really am always happy.
>
>politics? government?

err nm, just fackin' tell us, the same way you tell yourself, tell us.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 20:03:57 2004  
  Mouse said:

>*follows along* "Concurr."
>You sound like me. :P

I do? Well, I'll take that as a compliment, then.


 
erikagm Posted: Wed Jun 16 20:07:18 2004  
  Well I'm happy to say that I lived through work with a semi-developed cold.

And now I'm going home...

To whomever is here when Christophe comes back... Pick on him!!! LOL

I'm joking...

Mouse, Sailovzi, Mesh, Asswipe, Zacq, and whomever else I'm missing, Good night.

Going to go home and cook some nice chicken soup since I haven't had anything but breakfast since 11 am and it's already past 7 here.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Jun 16 20:10:43 2004  
  Goodnight erika. Get better!!!


 
novemberrain Posted: Wed Jun 16 21:22:02 2004  
  Holy crap! I leave for a few hours and this thread explodes.

That will teach me.


 
Puck Posted: Wed Jun 16 21:45:43 2004  
  Mouse said:
>Somebody, help! My thread has been hijacked!

I have a dream...that one day, on gt, the topic for conversation will be the same as the thread name and nobody will feel the need to ignore the thread because everyone else is talking about something else...and all that crap I just typed sounded so much better in my head.

I had a dream recently that I was slow-dancing with a really hot chick that was in my Algerba2 class, but we were in my 5th grade classroom. Then she tells me that she's in love with me. I look away and then look back and she's some other cute chick from my spanish class last year (02-03). I asked her for her email address but I didn't have time to write it down, because class was about to start. It was the last day and I was about to take a huge test. I told her that I'd meet her near her classroom after school. I forgot about meeting her there until after I woke up.

In response to erikagm's response to the Shane Smith thing (thanks you, Zacq), If I could somehow destroy....let's just say...the Earth(well, just all the life on it), I would probably do it unless I was in a really generous mood. I've got too many ways in mind to do it. Destroy the sun-we'd freeze. Crash the moon into us-that'd fook us up. Nuke the surface clean. Send the entire Earth back through time and crash it into itself- if the collision doesn't do it, then maybe the Back to the Future-ish paradox will.
I see myself as being realistic. The sun will expire. Our natural resources will deplete. We'll all have to go Amish. What's the point of space exploration if it will happen there too? We'll be that alien race from Independence Day. Argue with me if you'd like. I might defend myself or I might not. They're just thoughts, not long-term goals.



 
Zacq Posted: Wed Jun 16 22:09:19 2004  
  Actually once the potential energy from using antimatter is exploited the threat of terrorism will increase to such a high rate that most likely we'll eventually destroy the world much sooner than if the sun were to expire.


 
Puck Posted: Wed Jun 16 22:21:58 2004  
  That's if the Borg doesn't assimilate us first. : )


 
addi Posted: Wed Jun 16 22:59:45 2004  
  i can't stand those stinkin' arrogant Borg. They think they're so connected!

Yeah, well assimilate THIS BorgDork!

*drops my pants and moons them
: )


...goodnight, Johnboy


 
Puck Posted: Wed Jun 16 23:03:55 2004  
  ...as Bart hums the star spangled banner.

Once again, we're off the labeled subject, but I'm not complaining.


 
Mouse Posted: Wed Jun 16 23:16:53 2004  
  Hey, if they bring Icheb and Seven of Nine the Borg will find a welcome party at my house!
Resistance is futile. ;)


 
Mouse Posted: Wed Jun 16 23:24:56 2004  
  Stumbled on this the other day doing an image search.
All in good fun, folks. :)

http://www.math.buffalo.edu/~sww/s-b/bush-borg.jpg


 
Mouse Posted: Wed Jun 16 23:40:33 2004  
  erikagm said:
>To whomever is here when Christophe comes back... Pick on him!!! LOL
>
Good night, sleep well, and get better. :)
I'll be off now too, g'night plinkers and plonkers.
Ya can't pick on Christophe, it just doesn't work. Rolls right off his back, and if you try too hard it splashes back at you.
Unless you're Libra of course...


 
Puck Posted: Wed Jun 16 23:43:44 2004  
  Mouse, you come back just long enough to leave again. good night

Things that I've posted...I think:
"We are gt. Resistence is futile"

"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."


 
misszero Posted: Thu Jun 17 00:13:55 2004  
  you know what, chris? the australian outback is not a safe place to raise children. if the feral camels don't get them, the drop bears will.

its also the place where we grow all our drugs, and have american military bases in the shape of giant golf balls.

and also, dingoes. haven't you heard that tragic cry 'my baby, my baby, a dingo ate my baby?' oh yes, its true.. (the woman didn't go to prison, and by process of elimintion, that leaves the dingo, in the ball room, with the lead pipe)

plus, think of all the bad role models there are in the outback.... the people who got left there after Survivor: The Outback, people who wear corks on their hats, crocodile hunters (yeah, there's a guy who knows how to treat babies, heh) plus assorted village drunkards/idiots.

also in the outback are the detention centres where we keep our refugees. what if the kids saw the people who'd gone on a hunger strike and sewed their mouths closed, and tried to copy them, eh?

also, you must consider that the australian government is on a crusade to banish gay people (fucken fascist bastards, god i hate them) and make things as hard as possible for young people in this country.

thankyou, the end.


 
Puck Posted: Thu Jun 17 02:44:27 2004  
  misszero said:
>the dingo, in the ball room, with the lead pipe)

Dead Bill: Sorry, death, you lose! It was Professor Plum!
Grim Reaper: I said Plum!
Dead Ted: No way! You said Mustard!


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 05:12:55 2004  
  erikagm said:
>*** Well, as soon as you can let me know how I can ask an unborn child if he/she wants to be born, I'll take your opinions on the subject into account.

That's my point, there's no way to tell so no way to justify you deciding it.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 05:15:10 2004  
  erikagm said:
>But then Chris was harsh enough to ask how I could have a child since I'm a lesbian

Lol you think I didn't know about IVF and so on? It was just a rethoric remark :o)

>then the debate about "you don't have the right to decide for your unborn child if he should be born or not" started...

Lesbo's/gays have just as much "right" to have a kid as straight people: none.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 05:24:00 2004  
  Mouse said:
>Ya can't pick on Christophe, it just doesn't work. Rolls right off his back, and if you try too hard it splashes back at you.

Haha, thanks for the compliment.

To quote stewie: "victory is mine!"

>Unless you're Libra of course...

Or any attractive female for that matter.


 
Mesh Posted: Thu Jun 17 06:11:24 2004  
  poppy cock!


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 11:14:04 2004  
  Blah blah... Stewie is my hero too, and in his words, Christophe, I say:

"I like you... When the world is mine, your death shall be quick and painless"

LOL

And I wasnt implying that you said gays/lesbians don't have a right to decide for their unborn child. I understood perfectly that you meant -everyone-. But you know what? I'm quite glad my parents didn't wait to figure out how to ask me before they brought me into this world.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 11:18:22 2004  
  That's your choice right now.

You can't know if your kid will end up saying the same thing.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 11:25:16 2004  
  I think I'll still take my chances...

Who knows? If I really try I might just end up being the best mom there is/was!!!

And yes, Christophe, I do realize I might just end up being the -worst- mom there was, but I will certainly do my best not to become that.

And I know even if I -am- the best mom, my kid might still end up hating my guts, but it's a risk I'm willing to take.


 
novemberrain Posted: Thu Jun 17 11:25:24 2004  
  erikagm said:
>Blah blah... Stewie is my hero too, and in his words, Christophe, I say:
>
>"I like you... When the world is mine, your death shall be quick and painless"
>
>LOL

hehe. I got a shirt with Stewie saying that on it for a friend of mine.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 11:27:27 2004  
  Doesn't Stewie rule?

LOL


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 11:31:14 2004  
  erikagm said:
>I think I'll still take my chances... it's a risk I'm willing to take.

You are willing to take it, who says the kid would.


 
Puck Posted: Thu Jun 17 11:37:30 2004  
  Just because I'm lazy and don't want to read all of the posts on this thread, Chris, are you protesting against all forms of reproduction?


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 11:37:38 2004  
  Last post just to give you time to read the post in the other thread.

Well, he/she can hate me for it for the rest of their lives if they damn so please. :P Now THAT'S their choice to make.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 11:38:24 2004  
  Puck said:
>Just because I'm lazy and don't want to read all of the posts on this thread, Chris, are you protesting against all forms of reproduction?

Yep. He is. Apparently because the unborn child has no say as to whether he/she wants to come into this crappy world or not.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 11:40:27 2004  
  erikagm said:
>Yep. He is. Apparently because the unborn child has no say as to whether he/she wants to come into this crappy world or not.

Although I don't like other people talking in my name, that's more or less what it comes down to yes.

Your freedom ends where another person's begins.

And another person's freedom is to decide over his own life or death, so no, it is not your call to make.


 
novemberrain Posted: Thu Jun 17 12:29:42 2004  
  Christophe said:
>Although I don't like other people talking in my name, that's more or less what it comes down to yes.
>
Neither does God. But people do it anyway. :)




 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 12:36:10 2004  
  novemberrain said:
> Neither does God. But people do it anyway. :)

If "he" doesn't like it let "him" say so.


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Jun 17 12:41:58 2004  
  Christophe said:
>erikagm said:
>>Yep. He is. Apparently because the unborn child has no say as to whether he/she wants to come into this crappy world or not.
>
>Although I don't like other people talking in my name, that's more or less what it comes down to yes.
>
>Your freedom ends where another person's begins.
>
>And another person's freedom is to decide over his own life or death, so no, it is not your call to make.

where can the unborn baby make a decision in staying not-alive though? seems like a double standard because by not having a child, you're deciding the opposite, not to let the kid experience the world, so either way you're making a choice for the kid. however, if you have the child, then he can make the choice himself.


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Jun 17 12:43:12 2004  
  WORK SUCKS! back to it =(


 
Puck Posted: Thu Jun 17 13:03:22 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>where can the unborn baby make a decision in staying not-alive though? seems like a double standard because by not having a child, you're deciding the opposite, not to let the kid experience the world, so either way you're making a choice for the kid. however, if you have the child, then he can make the choice himself.

Well, I guess the parent has a 50:50 chance of making the right decision. Heads or Tails?

okay, maybe not 50:50.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 13:06:52 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>where can the unborn baby make a decision in staying not-alive though? seems like a double standard because by not having a child, you're deciding the opposite, not to let the kid experience the world, so either way you're making a choice for the kid. however, if you have the child, then he can make the choice himself.

The choice does not exist if the kid hasn't been "created" yet.

The kid never asked to be born, so there's no need for any choice since it isn't there.

Bringing a kid into the world and having it decide if it wants to live afterwards has nothing to do with giving the kid a choice, it's just doing what you want out of the selfish notion of "I want a kid and I want it now or my life won't be lived to the fullest" and then "making up for it" by pretending like you wanted to offer that unborn thing something.

There's no need to offer something to something that does not exist.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 13:08:00 2004  
  Asswipe said:
>where can the unborn baby make a decision in staying not-alive though? seems like a double standard because by not having a child, you're deciding the opposite, not to let the kid experience the world, so either way you're making a choice for the kid. however, if you have the child, then he can make the choice himself.

I hadnt thought of it from that viewpoint, but you're completely right? What if the kid -does- want to be born and you decide not to have him/her?

Hmmmm... I guess it -is- kind of a 50-50 thing, isn't it?

And well, as you so correctly pointed out. If the kid doesn't like the world he/she is living in, then they can certainly decide to end their own lives.

And now that I think about it even further... If we're -really- considering choices, then we would also have to think on why some kids just arent born (involuntary abortions) or why some people just cant get pregnant although there's nothing wrong with them... Couldnt it be that there is a choice involved in there somewhere already?


 

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