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Dreams 2 a.k.a. freedom of choice
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 13:19:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ok so we can continue on here if anyone is interested...


 
Puck Posted: Thu Jun 17 13:30:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  >The choice does not exist if the kid hasn't been "created" yet.
When is it officially created? Must it have the ability to say whether or not it wants to be?
>What if the kid -does- want to be born and you decide not to have him/her?
What if every sperm that ever existed wanted to fertilize an egg and be born?
Do you believe in a soul?



 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 13:51:46 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Puck said:
>What if every sperm that ever existed wanted to fertilize an egg and be born?
>Do you believe in a soul?

Yep. I believe in a soul... And the point you're making about the sperm and eggs is exactly where I was getting at.




 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 13:56:56 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And once again I want to congratulate all those that participated in this thread for another thread that has gonne completely off track and over its post limit... LOL




 
Puck Posted: Thu Jun 17 14:31:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Yep. I believe in a soul... And the point you're making about the sperm and eggs is exactly where I was getting at.
I'd like to point out that really long post I made before "dreams" overflowed.

But what about puppy mills and ant farms and road-kill?
The inbred dogs that don't want to exist are somebody's profit. The ants I step on or poison or drown: are they relevent life forms as well? I hear about abortion protests, but nothing about automobile protests.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 14:33:34 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Erikagm said:

>I hadnt thought of it from that viewpoint, but you're completely right? What if the kid -does- want to be born and you decide not to have him/her?

That's the whole point, the kid cannot wants to be born since it doesn't exist.

>Hmmmm... I guess it -is- kind of a 50-50 thing, isn't it?

No. It's 50-50 to you because that's what you want it to be.

>And well, as you so correctly pointed out. If the kid doesn't like the world he/she is living in, then they can certainly decide to end their own lives.

Yeah, you'll probably say: here child of mine, have this cyanidepill if you decide you don't want to live anymore.

>And now that I think about it even further... If we're -really- considering choices, then we would also have to think on why some kids just arent born (involuntary abortions) or why some people just cant get pregnant although there's nothing wrong with them... Couldnt it be that there is a choice involved in there somewhere already?

No.

I thought you went to medschool? How can you think like that when you have had any form of education?

How can you believe that people who can't get pregnant are that way because no non-existing energy wants to be their kid? It can't be because of they themselves since most of them try very hard to still get pregnant.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 14:39:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Yep. I believe in a soul... And the point you're making about the sperm and eggs is exactly where I was getting at.

Sperm and eggs do not consciously think.


 
Mouse Posted: Thu Jun 17 14:39:47 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  *Has a heart attack*
A thread *I* started went over limit?!
Wow...

Okay, I wanted to say something about the choice to be born... thousands of children miscarry for no defineable reason, isn't that making the choice not to live?
And if there isn't any way to ask that child if they want to be born how do you resolve it?


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 14:43:26 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Mouse said:
>Okay, I wanted to say something about the choice to be born... thousands of children miscarry for no defineable reason, isn't that making the choice not to live?

So you actually believe, try to imagine it as being a reality, that an unborn child says "hey, I don't think I want to live, I'll be a misscarriage.

This thread is mindboggling.

>And if there isn't any way to ask that child if they want to be born how do you resolve it?

You don't, that's the whole point.

There is nothing to pose that question to so there is no need for the "choice of life" to be offered at all


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 14:44:26 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>There is nothing to pose that question to so there is no need for the "choice of life" to be offered at all

Except out of pure selfishness.

The moment somebody admids that it just boils down to the selfish statement of "I want a kid that's all that matters" I'll rest my case.

Or go on a little bit further but then at least we aren't kidding eachother.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 14:50:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Just a little addition by the way:

I don't mean to insult you with this, it's just a remark, but when you are acting like "I'll ignore you untill you take your avatar away" you're acting like a preschooler.

Perhaps you should grow up some more first before starting to have kids yourself.

Again, not to insult you, just a thought.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 14:51:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Mouse said:
>*Has a heart attack*
>A thread *I* started went over limit?!
>Wow...
>
>Okay, I wanted to say something about the choice to be born... thousands of children miscarry for no defineable reason, isn't that making the choice not to live?
>And if there isn't any way to ask that child if they want to be born how do you resolve it?

Well Mouse, I think you can pretty much blame me for that one. I inadvertantly caused a debate.

And what you said about miscarriages for no definable reason, I agree. Despite all my years in school, along with my years in med school and aside from having a father who is a doctor, there -are- inexplicable reasons for miscarriage that can't be blamed on anything else. Or kids who -are- born and have a thing called "failure to thrive". It's as if these babies lost their will to live.


 
Mouse Posted: Thu Jun 17 14:53:41 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>So you actually believe, try to imagine it as being a reality, that an unborn child says "hey, I don't think I want to live, I'll be a misscarriage.
>
>This thread is mindboggling.
>
Actually I don't beleive that something barely past a cluster of cells that knows nothing beyond it's mothers body considers things like that, just wanted to ask for your reaction.
>
>There is nothing to pose that question to so there is no need for the "choice of life" to be offered at all.

From what I gather you're agruing that the choice to have a child is purely selfish, is that correct? Even if it is selfish, is it wrong to be selfish? I have never considered being selfish a 'sin'.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 14:59:51 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Mouse said:
>Actually I don't beleive that something barely past a cluster of cells that knows nothing beyond it's mothers body considers things like that, just wanted to ask for your reaction.

Good.

>From what I gather you're agruing that the choice to have a child is purely selfish, is that correct?

Yes.

>Even if it is selfish, is it wrong to be selfish? I have never considered being selfish a 'sin'.

I agree that selfishness isn't a sin, it's human nature, nothing "wrong" with that.

And like I said a few posts earlier, I would have much less of a problem with it if people just admitted it like it is instead of fabricating fantastic faerietales around the whole thing about wanting to offer life to another human being and crap like that.

I bet even if somehow the kid would be able to tell them "I don't want to be brought into the world" they'd still get one because they just want one without confessing to themselves the reasons behind it: not the choice of life, or the gift thereof, but the satisfying of their own selfish greed and whims.

And that's ok, but not when you're talking about life and death.


 
Mouse Posted: Thu Jun 17 15:38:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Well Mouse, I think you can pretty much blame me for that one. I inadvertantly caused a debate.

No need to fret, you've jumped in with both feet and that's something I admire, from the sidelines. :)
I often wonder and theorize about how much we know before we are taught anything, before we've even seen the world. Perhaps we do know something more before we form memories and personalities. But just as none will ever know what it is like to be dead before they are, it's something that can't be understood or proven. I form my own opinions about birth and death by what I feel and see because there's nothing else to go on.
Of course, that's a more spiritual than logical subject so I expect to be disagreed with by most.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 15:54:35 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Mouse said:
>Of course, that's a more spiritual than logical subject so I expect to be disagreed with by most.

Logic above all.


 
Puck Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:02:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
Selfishness? what's not selfish? Birth (consenting), Suicide...
Is there a long-term advantage to the existence of every single life? What's the point of it at all?


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:03:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Mouse said:

>Of course, that's a more spiritual than logical subject so I expect to be disagreed with by most.

Well, as I heard mentioned once... If you dream and your dream is real enough that you think it's reality, and the dream goes on forever... then what IS reality?

I think that guiding yourself by how you feel about something, your true GUT feeling, is the right way to go about things...

Logic has proved me wrong several times, but my gut instinct has so far never let me down... I guess it's part of our animal instinct still in us, and they -do- say animals have a 6th sense about stuff...


 
Puck Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:12:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Logic has proved me wrong several times,

Logic is my friend. It helps me find all the stuff I lose, win an arguement occasionally, kick my brother's ass in chess. I abandoned all things spiritual when I was 11.

farewell, gt. I've had enough for this week.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:13:11 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Puck said:
>
>Selfishness? what's not selfish? Birth (consenting), Suicide...

The point is that "they" refuse to admid it is out of selfishness.

>Is there a long-term advantage to the existence of every single life? What's the point of it at all?

Nothing.

And I don't see why that is a problem.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:13:31 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Puck said:
>Logic is my friend. It helps me find all the stuff I lose, win an arguement occasionally, kick my brother's ass in chess. I abandoned all things spiritual when I was 11.
>
>farewell, gt. I've had enough for this week.

I never said logic was bad, or that it proved me wrong ALL the time. But logic isn't infallible either.


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:14:28 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe, you've stated in the past that you are pro-choice (politically as well as literally).

I'm just wondering, how can you say that it is wrong to make a decision for something that doesn't even exist yet, but that it is not wrong to make a decision to force an embryo/fetus -out- of existence?

You say the baby should have a choice--even though you can't have choice before you have life, never mind self-awareness--but you don't think that something that is actually -something- has that right?

Seems like a double standard to me. :P

Had to bring in something, this is going to get really boring really fast while Erika is protesting your blinky avitar.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:14:59 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Well, as I heard mentioned once... If you dream and your dream is real enough that you think it's reality, and the dream goes on forever... then what IS reality?

Tell me when you can start to make pigs fly when dreaming.

I'm thinking somebody put too many peppers in the chili.

>I think that guiding yourself by how you feel about something, your true GUT feeling, is the right way to go about things...

I think not. It's the definition of naive.

>Logic has proved me wrong several times, but my gut instinct has so far never let me down... I guess it's part of our animal instinct still in us, and they -do- say animals have a 6th sense about stuff...

I can see how your logic has proven to be wrong.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:17:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>I'm just wondering, how can you say that it is wrong to make a decision for something that doesn't even exist yet, but that it is not wrong to make a decision to force an embryo/fetus -out- of existence?

It's correcting an error-to-be and I don't see that as a pontential life untill the moment it's born or able to live outside the womb by itself.

>You say the baby should have a choice--even though you can't have choice before you have life, never mind self-awareness--but you don't think that something that is actually -something- has that right?

See above.

>Seems like a double standard to me. :P

It isn't.

>Had to bring in something, this is going to get really boring really fast while Erika is protesting your blinky avitar.

Haha yeah, and who's fault is that one might ask :o)


Children raising children? I wonder how that will work out.

I can understand that it's easier to ignore what I'm saying than desperately trying to refute it while you know you're fighting a lost battle.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:22:29 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>Had to bring in something, this is going to get really boring really fast while Erika is protesting your blinky avitar.

Well if Christophe enjoys arguing with me he can make that one little concession so we can keep on debating down each other's necks. :P


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:24:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Well if Christophe enjoys arguing with me he can make that one little concession so we can keep on debating down each other's necks. :P

I have never given in to any for of blackmail in my life, ever.

Too much pride so I don't intend to start chancing that now over something like this.


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:26:30 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Sailovzi said:
>>
>
>It's correcting an error-to-be and I don't see that as a pontential life untill the moment it's born or able to live outside the womb by itself.

So the idea of a baby is potential life with the right of choice, but an embryo is just a useless lump of flesh?

An error-to-be? Sounds like you're saying all life is a mistake/wrong.



 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:28:11 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:

>So the idea of a baby is potential life with the right of choice, but an embryo is just a useless lump of flesh?
>
>An error-to-be? Sounds like you're saying all life is a mistake/wrong.
>

Which is why I am so opposed to Christophe's views... Personally, as I have said before, I'm very glad I'm alive!


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:33:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>So the idea of a baby is potential life with the right of choice, but an embryo is just a useless lump of flesh?

Yes, untill it can live on its own outside the womb.

An embryo isn't a "life" to me the moment the egg and sperm gets together.

When you make the choice the life isn't there immediatly as well, but it grows into one.

>An error-to-be? Sounds like you're saying all life is a mistake/wrong.

The error is the choice that was made for the life without it having any say about it.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:34:25 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Which is why I am so opposed to Christophe's views... Personally, as I have said before, I'm very glad I'm alive!

Yeah, exactly, -personally-, you, not the kid.

And -personally- I'm also happy to be alive. I can show you as many people as you want who aren't.


And that's not the point.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:34:31 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>An error-to-be? Sounds like you're saying all life is a mistake/wrong.
>

If it was up to Christophe, we all wouldn't be here at all...


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:35:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>If it was up to Christophe, we all wouldn't be here at all...

And what difference would it make?

You make it sound like that would be the worst thing ever.




And I don't like being talked about over my head.

Either you talk to me or you ignore me along with anything that has to do with what I said.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:38:22 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Choices...

Topic here seems to be that we should have a choice about everything.

Even about whether we are born or not.

So, one can have a choice about anything.

Even about what one chooses to ignore and what one chooses not to. :P


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:41:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Sailovzi said:
>>
>
>When you make the choice the life isn't there immediatly as well, but it grows into one.

Exactly true. It could grow into a baby and live out a life on Earth, but no on asks it what it wants before they get an abortion.

>>
>
>The error is the choice that was made for the life without it having any say about it.

So all intelligent life is a mistake.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:41:42 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Even about what one chooses to ignore and what one chooses not to. :P

Ofcourse, which is the definition of selfishness: chosing to ignore somebody else's interests.

And there's nothing wrong with that, I just can't stand people who deny it and make it seem like something else.


Just like I would have had much less of a problem with it if Bush had said he was going into Iraq for the oil.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:44:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  You know Sailovzi, I don't know if you're just taking my side of it so the debate will go on, but I could hug you!

LOL

Anyway, in case it isn't for that reason, I admire your points of view.

Not that my opinion may matter much, but take it as a token of respect.


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:44:11 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>erikagm said:
>>If it was up to Christophe, we all wouldn't be here at all...
>
>And what difference would it make?
>
>You make it sound like that would be the worst thing ever.
>

So you tell me what the worst thing ever is.

Look, Chris, life happens, and it has to happen, because what else is going to happen? Babies, universes, all necessary, just because. Nature abhors a vacuum.

You're chaotic neutral man, it's very unappealing.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:44:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>Exactly true. It could grow into a baby and live out a life on Earth, but no on asks it what it wants before they get an abortion.

Just like they didn't ask it if it wanted to be "created" in the first place so they're undoing their mistake of forcing it into something they want for it.

>So all intelligent life is a mistake.

It's not a mistake, it's selfishness and forcing your will onto others who can't defend themselves from it.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:45:19 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Not that my opinion may matter much, but take it as a token of respect.

I do as well, I like it when people team up on me, mostly because they can't handle it themselves.

Not saying that it's the case here by the way.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:46:35 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>So you tell me what the worst thing ever is.

Irrelevant.

>Look, Chris, life happens, and it has to happen, because what else is going to happen? Babies, universes, all necessary, just because. Nature abhors a vacuum.

There is no reason for it to happen.

Your reason is "if there is no life there is nothing" so what?

>You're chaotic neutral man, it's very unappealing.

Please explain?


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:47:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Sailovzi said:
>>
>Just like they didn't ask it if it wanted to be "created" in the first place so they're undoing their mistake of forcing it into something they want for it.

What if your parents killed you tomorrow? Would you consider that undoing a mistake?


 
Puck Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:51:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Chris, you say that by erikagm's decision to not talk to you she is acting like a preschooler. But, you don't change your avi just to annoy her. So, what does that make you?

One post can devour gt forever!


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:53:08 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Sailovzi said:
>>
>There is no reason for it to happen.
>
>Your reason is "if there is no life there is nothing" so what?

No, to me life isn't the end or the point. It's just something that happens. Planets collide... mommies give birth. To me, the reason is the same for both.

>
>>You're chaotic neutral man, it's very unappealing.
>
>Please explain?

Never mind.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:53:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>What if your parents killed you tomorrow? Would you consider that undoing a mistake?

No, because killing me isn't their choice to make, just like "creating" me wasn't.

They cannot decide over my life or death since it is not theirs.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:54:03 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Puck said:
>Chris, you say that by erikagm's decision to not talk to you she is acting like a preschooler. But, you don't change your avi just to annoy her. So, what does that make you?
>
One thing to say before I start.

I realize you're not judging me.

Now, I want to add that I do not think I am acting like a preschooler. I am protesting against his avatar, because I consider it offensive on a personal level.

That said, thanks for not judging me Puck.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:54:09 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Puck said:
>Chris, you say that by erikagm's decision to not talk to you she is acting like a preschooler. But, you don't change your avi just to annoy her. So, what does that make you?

I think I explained that pretty clearly already.


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:55:19 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>You know Sailovzi, I don't know if you're just taking my side of it so the debate will go on, but I could hug you!
>

I just saw something I wanted to point out.

>
>Anyway, in case it isn't for that reason, I admire your points of view.
>
>Not that my opinion may matter much, but take it as a token of respect.

Thank you. :)

Although, just to remind everyone... I -am- pro-choice.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:55:28 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>No, to me life isn't the end or the point. It's just something that happens. Planets collide... mommies give birth. To me, the reason is the same for both.

The point of choice is to be able to decide if some things happen or not so that they do not 'just happen'.

>>>You're chaotic neutral man, it's very unappealing.
>>
>>Please explain?
>
>Never mind.

Please do, I don't understand what you mean by "chaotic neutral".


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:56:32 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Now, I want to add that I do not think I am acting like a preschooler. I am protesting against his avatar, because I consider it offensive on a personal level.

Which is your right, just like it is my right to use it if I feel like it.

It would have been changed already but now this is my way of protesting you trying to prohibit me from expressing what I want.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 16:57:13 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And by the way, you are still reacting to what I'm saying, just through other people's posts.

And I know you are reading this, therefor you are not ignoring me.


Hah.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:00:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:

>Although, just to remind everyone... I -am- pro-choice.

Personally, I would never have an abortion, but I see how it could help a 9 yr old girl that was raped. She shouldn't have to suffer through what would be a traumatizing pregnancy as well as a painful labor on top of what happened to her.

I wouldn't say the same thing about a prostitute that got pregnant though... Or a teenage girl who got pregnant as well just because she was too lazy to use birth control.

So if you ask me, should people use abortion as birth control? My answer is most definitely not.

I accept abortion on the terms it is used here in Mexico. When the pregnancy endangers the life of the mother, when it is a pregnancy caused by rape, and, aside from those, only when the child would be so severely handicapped by a deformity or incapacity that it wouldn't lead a life worth living. And no, I am not referring to down syndrome or things like that... More like anencephaly (lack of brain) or such a severe deformity that it couldn't even begin to live without assistance.






 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:02:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>I wouldn't say the same thing about a prostitute that got pregnant though... Or a teenage girl who got pregnant as well just because she was too lazy to use birth control.

So not only she but the child as well would have to pay?

Again, who are you to decide over somebody else's body and life?

>So if you ask me, should people use abortion as birth control? My answer is most definitely not.

If you have done medschool, you should be aware that no woman would use it as birthcontrol. Abortion, even with pills, is extremely painful.

>And no, I am not referring to down syndrome or things like that...

Again, who are you, or anybody, to decide.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:03:26 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I will be leaving for a couple of hours due to a training regading new HP product information that we will be handling, but I -will- be back. Take that as a threat or a promise, as you will...

Anyway, see you in a couple of hours.


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:09:48 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  christophe, no matter how many people out there say that they hate life, write faggy-goth poems like Choke's, and say they can't stand it... until they go ahead and commit suicide they are full of shit. how many people do you know who've killed themselves?

life is, by far, the best gift i've ever received. I don't care what my parent's motives were behind having me and my brothers, but i can assure you that it cannot be broken down to simple selfishness. Is eatting food and drinking water selfish? No, it's the only way we can stay alive. Is having children selfish? No, it's the only way the race can survive. So is it selfish to want to preserve the species? Is wishing "life" on people selfish? Is it even really a choice that we can make? No, we must reproduce, and if there's no real choice in it, how can we be called selfish for doing it?

it can simultaneously make the parent's lives better, or more fulfilling, and benefit the child by giving him a chance.

you are arguing against future life here, chris. Unless you can come up w/ a way to give the future human's a choice in the matter, which is only possible after they are born, then you are arguing for no future humans... but that's not selfish.




 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:11:37 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Sailovzi said:
>>What if your parents killed you tomorrow? Would you consider that undoing a mistake?
>
>No, because killing me isn't their choice to make, just like "creating" me wasn't.
>
>They cannot decide over my life or death since it is not theirs.

Except for a small window of time when you're dependant on your mother, apperently.


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:15:26 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Sailovzi said:
>>>Please explain?
>>
>>Never mind.
>
>Please do, I don't understand what you mean by "chaotic neutral".

It's a term used by role-playing geeks in D&D. Means you don't make moral/personal choices EVER.

Makes making a decision to assassinate a wicked overlord a big ordeal.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:16:32 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>christophe, no matter how many people out there say that they hate life, write faggy-goth poems like Choke's, and say they can't stand it... until they go ahead and commit suicide they are full of shit. how many people do you know who've killed themselves?

2

And that's not the point.

It's not because they don't commit suicide that they don't regret being born.

2 very different things.

>life is, by far, the best gift i've ever received. I don't care what my parent's motives were behind having me and my brothers, but i can assure you that it cannot be broken down to simple selfishness.

Since you didn't ask for it, yeah, it was selfishness, they wanted children, you couldn't have wanted to be a kid since you didn't exist.

>Is eatting food and drinking water selfish? No, it's the only way we can stay alive. Is having children selfish? No, it's the only way the race can survive.

And why would that not be selfish then?

She said it isn't to keep the human race alive.

>So is it selfish to want to preserve the species?

For how many people is that the main reason?

I agree it's the biological one though, which doesn't make it any less selfish.

As I said before, selfishness isn't a bad thing, but I don't like the hypocrisy surrounding it.

>Is wishing "life" on people selfish?

They don't wish life for other people, they wish a baby for themselves.

>Is it even really a choice that we can make? No, we must reproduce

Why.

>and if there's no real choice in it, how can we be called selfish for doing it?

Nobody puts a gun to your head telling you to get (somebody) pregnant.

>it can simultaneously make the parent's lives better, or more fulfilling, and benefit the child by giving him a chance.

Which it never asked for or could have wanted.

>you are arguing against future life here, chris. Unless you can come up w/ a way to give the future human's a choice in the matter, which is only possible after they are born, then you are arguing for no future humans...

You don't give them a choice about being "future humans" either. There's nobody to give a choice to untill you yourself decide you want to have a kid and then it's too late because you already made the choice for them.

I don't think that's so hard to understand, or is it?

>but that's not selfish.

No it isn't, since you can't deprive something non-existing from anything.


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:16:33 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I too, am taking my leave, as I haven't eaten anything all day. Back soon.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:17:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>Except for a small window of time when you're dependant on your mother, apperently.

Since I am still living with my parents, I am still depending on them in that perspective.

Does that give them a reason to be allowed to decide over my life or death?


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:19:34 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>It's a term used by role-playing geeks in D&D. Means you don't make moral/personal choices EVER.

The whole thread is about making choices lol.


 
marsteller Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:36:15 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  blah blah....people should be allowed to do what they want with their own bodies....i think abortion's the mothers call up until the point that the baby could survive birth and life in the outside world...after that it's kinda fucked up. then again, i've never been pregnant, so i really can't empathise too well.


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:49:01 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Asswipe said:
>>christophe, no matter how many people out there say that they hate life, write faggy-goth poems like Choke's, and say they can't stand it... until they go ahead and commit suicide they are full of shit. how many people do you know who've killed themselves?
>
>2
>
>And that's not the point.
>
>It's not because they don't commit suicide that they don't regret being born.
>
>2 very different things.

how so? if one regrets being born and has the choice to revert to non-existance... why don't they? if they have a reason to not kill themselves than they choose life over death, existance over the void, yet they still regret being born?

>
>>life is, by far, the best gift i've ever received. I don't care what my parent's motives were behind having me and my brothers, but i can assure you that it cannot be broken down to simple selfishness.
>
>Since you didn't ask for it, yeah, it was selfishness, they wanted children, you couldn't have wanted to be a kid since you didn't exist.

I didn't ask for a blue and red Thunder Cats tricycle, for my 3rd birthday either, but it was still a pretty sweet gift. So was it also selfish for them to want to see me riding around enjoying myself on the new trike? Yeah... but who cares? I got my trike, they got to see me smile... no one looses here... what's your damn problem?

>
>>Is eatting food and drinking water selfish? No, it's the only way we can stay alive. Is having children selfish? No, it's the only way the race can survive.
>
>And why would that not be selfish then?

because there's no choice in the matter. Survival is the strongest instinct that we have and no matter how many people turn into faggy-goth kids, like yourself, there will always be people who value life and wish it upon future generations.

>
>She said it isn't to keep the human race alive.

>
>>So is it selfish to want to preserve the species?
>
>For how many people is that the main reason?
>
>I agree it's the biological one though, which doesn't make it any less selfish.

it's wishing something for others, if that's the parent's ultimate view... how is wishing life on future generations selfish?

>
>As I said before, selfishness isn't a bad thing, but I don't like the hypocrisy surrounding it.

you're one to talk about not liking hypocrisy. mr. "yes, i enjoy life, yet i would never wish it on another person when they don't have the choice that they are not able to make". It is our duty as humans to decide what we give to the future just as it's the duty of the parents to control their children. We decide for the not-born because it is in their best interest, and if it isn't, they can kill themselves. WIN-WIN situation man.

>
>>Is wishing "life" on people selfish?
>
>They don't wish life for other people, they wish a baby for themselves.

if you ask addison or hif or christian or whoever else has a kid, "If you had the choice to give up your own life to preserve that of your son's, what would you do?" what do you think they would say? My point is that they care more about their child's life then there own.



 
Puck Posted: Thu Jun 17 17:52:38 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

I don't understand it. I'm on Christope's side, but since he's such a stubborn ass, I want to help the other side. : ) But, I respect your (all of you) opinions.

Asswipe, Why must we reproduce? Shall I once again point out my really long post in "dreams".
Reproduction is not and must not be an investment.

Being alive isn't something I'm attached to, so I wouldn't mind not being alive, but, for now, I think that there is a small group of people who would rather have me be alive. So, rather than taking the selfish way out (suicide, obviously) I decided to stick around.

If people can have their ears pierced, shouldn't a pregnant chick be able to have the parasite gestating inside them removed?

Okay, I'm really leaving this time.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 18:00:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>how so? if one regrets being born and has the choice to revert to non-existance... why don't they? if they have a reason to not kill themselves than they choose life over death, existance over the void, yet they still regret being born?

Yes, they shouldn't have to be put in front of that choice from the start if it wasn't for their parents' which for children.

Some people don't have the courage/guts/whatever to kill themselves because they're more scared of death than life, which again, doesn't mean they can't regret being born.

>I didn't ask for a blue and red Thunder Cats tricycle, for my 3rd birthday either, but it was still a pretty sweet gift.

Yeah, life is a blue and red thundercats tricycle.

>So was it also selfish for them to want to see me riding around enjoying myself on the new trike? Yeah... but who cares? I got my trike, they got to see me smile... no one looses here... what's your damn problem?

My problem is that people pretend that it's not out of selfishness.

>>And why would that not be selfish then?
>
>because there's no choice in the matter. Survival is the strongest instinct that we have and no matter how many people turn into faggy-goth kids, like yourself

Lol, I am not a "goth kid", and especially not a "faggy" one.

You think I am depressed. I am not.

I don't need a "higher reason" or "higher meaning" or whatever to cope with life/existance.

I'm sorry if that is hard to understand.

>there will always be people who value life and wish it upon future generations.

Like communists used to value communism and wished it upon the rest of the world?

>you're one to talk about not liking hypocrisy. mr. "yes, i enjoy life, yet i would never wish it on another person when they don't have the choice that they are not able to make".

It's not because you and I enjoy it somebody else does/will as well.

>It is our duty as humans to decide what we give to the future just as it's the duty of the parents to control their children. We decide for the not-born because it is in their best interest.

Unborns don't have any interests, nor is it our "duty" to decide anything for them.

>and if it isn't, they can kill themselves. WIN-WIN situation man.

Like you said, survival is the most basic instinct, it's not because they are to cowardly (if it has to do with cowardice) to commit suicide that they didn't wish they hadn't been born.

Perhaps even more so since they don't have the guts to make it stop and they feel like it shouldn't have started to begin with and they would never had known the difference since they wouldn't have existed anyway.

>if you ask addison or hif or christian or whoever else has a kid, "If you had the choice to give up your own life to preserve that of your son's, what would you do?" what do you think they would say? My point is that they care more about their child's life then there own.

Ofcourse, that's biology.

I never said they didn't.

I don't see how that gives them the right to decide over their kid's live or death though.

If they like life then there's no problem even though a decision which was theirs was taken for them in their place. Good for them.

If things don't turn out like that it's something very different.

And there's no way you can ensure/prevent any of the above situations.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 18:05:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Puck said:
>I don't understand it. I'm on Christope's side, but since he's such a stubborn ass, I want to help the other side. : ) But, I respect your (all of you) opinions.

I respect the people, I don't respect some of the opinions mentioned here. I respect their right to have one though.

Even some deny my right to show mine in let's say, what's the first thing comming to mind, even a simple avatar.

And yeah, I'm a stubborn ass, why wouldn't I be?

Should I change my opinions if people keep nagging long enough?

Prove me wrong and I'll change it.

If not I refuse to.


 
FN Posted: Thu Jun 17 18:05:42 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Outta here as well.

See you all later.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 18:17:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ok let's get back to the choice/non choice issue here.

Let's for a minute take einstein's theory that "energy is not created, nor destroyed, only transformed" into account.

Being that so, then children are not "a new life form" but an extension of our own.

Meaning that they didn't have to choose life, or non-life, because they were alive already.

Now, if you want science and fact... Well, there's science and fact in my past statements.

(what an hour of pure boredom does for one, huh?)


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 20:16:34 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Ok let's get back to the choice/non choice issue here.
>
>Let's for a minute take einstein's theory that "energy is not created, nor destroyed, only transformed" into account......


That is a very interesting point... Since I'm not on the side against reproduction, I can't think of any further comment, except that it does inspire interesting ideas about immortality..


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 20:24:54 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Doesn't it?


 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 20:32:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>Since I am still living with my parents, I am still depending on them in that perspective.
>
>Does that give them a reason to be allowed to decide over my life or death?

I dunno, does it?

You're the one arguing that a fetus doesn't have the right to choice.



Ugh.

Well, I just spent the last five minutes rocking back on forth with a pen balanced on my nose, so I am feeling extremely serene.



 
Kira Posted: Thu Jun 17 20:33:59 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>
>She said it isn't to keep the human race alive.


Who said?


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Jun 17 20:38:40 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Asswipe said:
>>how so? if one regrets being born and has the choice to revert to non-existance... why don't they? if they have a reason to not kill themselves than they choose life over death, existance over the void, yet they still regret being born?
>
>Yes, they shouldn't have to be put in front of that choice from the start if it wasn't for their parents' which for children.

do you understand that there is no way in all possible hell that you can logically believe what you're saying? You're arguing a point that has absolutely no significance in life. You act like wishing to have children is like starting a damn war, yet you say you're not depressed. How does this fit? What keeps you from returning to non-existance? fear?

>
>>I didn't ask for a blue and red Thunder Cats tricycle, for my 3rd birthday either, but it was still a pretty sweet gift.
>
>Yeah, life is a blue and red thundercats tricycle.

my point is that your parents know what's best for you, at least in the begining. They certainly know more than a non-existant fetus. the power to create life belongs in the hands of people who have been alive for 25+ years rather than someone who has never experienced an instant of it.

>
>>So was it also selfish for them to want to see me riding around enjoying myself on the new trike? Yeah... but who cares? I got my trike, they got to see me smile... no one looses here... what's your damn problem?
>
>My problem is that people pretend that it's not out of selfishness.
>
>>>And why would that not be selfish then?
>>
>>because there's no choice in the matter. Survival is the strongest instinct that we have and no matter how many people turn into faggy-goth kids, like yourself
>
>Lol, I am not a "goth kid", and especially not a "faggy" one.
>
>You think I am depressed. I am not.
>
>I don't need a "higher reason" or "higher meaning" or whatever to cope with life/existance.
>
>I'm sorry if that is hard to understand.

way to avoid my point and be a condescending little shit at the same time.

>
>>there will always be people who value life and wish it upon future generations.
>
>Like communists used to value communism and wished it upon the rest of the world?

how can you claim you're not depressed after saying that?

>
>>you're one to talk about not liking hypocrisy. mr. "yes, i enjoy life, yet i would never wish it on another person when they don't have the choice that they are not able to make".
>
>It's not because you and I enjoy it somebody else does/will as well.

how different do you think people's experiences are out there? EVERYONE feels happy at times, everyone feels sad at times, EVERYONE.

>
>>It is our duty as humans to decide what we give to the future just as it's the duty of the parents to control their children. We decide for the not-born because it is in their best interest.
>
>Unborns don't have any interests, nor is it our "duty" to decide anything for them.

they will have interests.

>
>>and if it isn't, they can kill themselves. WIN-WIN situation man.
>
>Like you said, survival is the most basic instinct, it's not because they are to cowardly (if it has to do with cowardice) to commit suicide that they didn't wish they hadn't been born.

how do you condemn my argument above(or ignore it, rather) and then use the same point down here to attempt to strike against me? it is the most basic instinct, but it can be overcome... as you've seen twice?

>
>Perhaps even more so since they don't have the guts to make it stop and they feel like it shouldn't have started to begin with and they would never had known the difference since they wouldn't have existed anyway.

but they can return to that, that's why people kill themselves...

>
>>if you ask addison or hif or christian or whoever else has a kid, "If you had the choice to give up your own life to preserve that of your son's, what would you do?" what do you think they would say? My point is that they care more about their child's life then there own.
>
>Ofcourse, that's biology.

wtf are you talking about, "that's biology"? the chinese are notorious for killing their baby daughters, or were at least, dunno what the story is now.

>
>I never said they didn't.
>
>I don't see how that gives them the right to decide over their kid's live or death though.

because they are the person in the best place to do so.

>
>If they like life then there's no problem even though a decision which was theirs was taken for them in their place. Good for them.

could you imagine god sitting in front of a little spirit and saying... "look, you can chill here w/ me or you can go out on your own and see what becomes of you. You'll see tragedy, you'll see comedy, you won't remember that i'm here so you'll fear like hell coming back to me, but you will be in charge." i do not believe in god so i don't want to hear about your dogmatisms.

>
>If things don't turn out like that it's something very different.
>
>And there's no way you can ensure/prevent any of the above situations.

that's life dude, why are you so afraid of it?


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 20:45:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And I still think arguing with someone who argues for argument's sake is pointless...

And I still like my energy theory, which I think is pretty accurate.


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Jun 17 20:53:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>And I still think arguing with someone who argues for argument's sake is pointless...
>
>And I still like my energy theory, which I think is pretty accurate.

if by accurate you mean taking giant blind leaps about info we know nothing about then sure, it was accurate.


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 20:56:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  well, maybe accurate wasnt the best word... but then again... i was under the impression that einstein's energy theory was widely accepted by scientists all over the world..



 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Jun 17 21:03:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Ok let's get back to the choice/non choice issue here.
>
>Let's for a minute take einstein's theory that "energy is not created, nor destroyed, only transformed" into account.

what you've said above here thus far is all "accurate" as far as einstein knows, and right now i'm not gonna disagree w/ him.

>
>Being that so, then children are not "a new life form" but an extension of our own.
>
>Meaning that they didn't have to choose life, or non-life, because they were alive already.

the problem is: energy does not necessarily equal "alive", and it certainly doesn't equate to "a thinking being". Energy is the sun's rays, energy is a water falling off a cliff, etc. so basically, this point has little to do w/ our problem here because unless these little "wisps of undifferentiated nothings" (vonnegut) make a choice, christophe still whines.

i suppose you've described "the circle of life" though. thanks disney.



 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 21:23:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Actually if you think about it, since our whole bodies run on electrical energy (oh yes, they do... thanks to medical school I know that) then we *are* energy... Now if you want to bring souls into the discussion, it has always been said that "souls" are comparable to an electric field that leaves the body when a person dies...

You catching my drift now?


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Jun 17 21:44:16 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Actually if you think about it, since our whole bodies run on electrical energy (oh yes, they do... thanks to medical school I know that) then we *are* energy... Now if you want to bring souls into the discussion, it has always been said that "souls" are comparable to an electric field that leaves the body when a person dies...
>
>You catching my drift now?

i know exactly what you're saying, but it really doesn't matter because it's EXACTLY the same as Mustafa's speech to simba about what happens when you die. yes, your energy may be recycled but since your memories are not, then it is as if you return to oblivion, since you will never *know* another life.

i'm curious, where'd you go to med school and what are you doing now?


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 22:00:11 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>i know exactly what you're saying, but it really doesn't matter because it's EXACTLY the same as Mustafa's speech to simba about what happens when you die. yes, your energy may be recycled but since your memories are not, then it is as if you return to oblivion, since you will never *know* another life.

*** Uhm I was more referring to the "part" of our energy that gets passed on to our children, hence the fact that they are never a "nothing" and were already "alive" somehow so there really is no choice as to whether we "bring them" into this world... They are already here... And I never watched "The lion king"
>
>i'm curious, where'd you go to med school and what are you doing now?

***I went to one of the most prominent med schools here in the country, the University of Guadalajara Med school. Dropped out at 2nd year because my parents found out I was gay and stopped giving me their economical assistance, which I needed in order to keep studying. I am now living in Leon, Gto. A city a few hours away from Guadalajara (different state, too) and working for a company called TeleTech as a Quality Analyst.

*Phew*


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Jun 17 22:07:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Asswipe said:
>>i know exactly what you're saying, but it really doesn't matter because it's EXACTLY the same as Mustafa's speech to simba about what happens when you die. yes, your energy may be recycled but since your memories are not, then it is as if you return to oblivion, since you will never *know* another life.
>
>*** Uhm I was more referring to the "part" of our energy that gets passed on to our children, hence the fact that they are never a "nothing" and were already "alive" somehow so there really is no choice as to whether we "bring them" into this world... They are already here... And I never watched "The lion king"

but they arn't here in a sense where they can consciously perceive anything. "To be is to perceive." was descartes or hume that said that, i think. W/ out our perceptions, we are not human.

"Undifferentiated wisps of nothingness" or pre-born packets of energy, as you call 'em, really do not exist in the sense of existing that we know. That is, they cannot be perceived nor can they perceive anything, so no, they are not alive.

You should know, from studying bio, that it requires 8(?) traits to be considered living... i don't believe "energy" satisfies a single one of the requirements. i don't think addison does either.



 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 22:10:04 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>but they arn't here in a sense where they can consciously perceive anything. "To be is to perceive." was descartes or hume that said that, i think. W/ out our perceptions, we are not human.

Nonetheless, they -are- here, and so we are not really making a choice to "bring them into this world" since they already exist, albeit in a different shape and form...
>

>You should know, from studying bio, that it requires 8(?) traits to be considered living... i don't believe "energy" satisfies a single one of the requirements. i don't think addison does either.
>
LOL


 
erikagm Posted: Thu Jun 17 22:10:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm gonna call it a night now... Been here for 11 hours straight and didnt even take a decent lunch break...

G'night.


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Jun 17 22:13:57 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Asswipe said:
>>but they arn't here in a sense where they can consciously perceive anything. "To be is to perceive." was descartes or hume that said that, i think. W/ out our perceptions, we are not human.
>
>Nonetheless, they -are- here, and so we are not really making a choice to "bring them into this world" since they already exist, albeit in a different shape and form...

go back up to where i said that hume said "to be is to be perceived"(that's the correct quote, but i think it makes sense the way i read it above as well). if energy is not perceived, it does not exist. and while it may exist outside the realm of human perception, it does certainly not exist in the same realm that humans perceive, so you're still bringing them into this world...

my brain is fried and girls are dumb so i gotta go. cyas




 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 06:54:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Let's for a minute take einstein's theory that "energy is not created, nor destroyed, only transformed" into account.

I don't see an unborn child is an energy of any kind, no matter what einstein or anybody else says.

And even if it was, it would not be your call to "transform" it as you say.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 06:54:47 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>You're the one arguing that a fetus doesn't have the right to choice.

Because like I said before, I don't see a foetus as a human being.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 06:55:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>Christophe said:
>>She said it isn't to keep the human race alive.
>
>
>Who said?

Erika.

And if you honnestly believe people get children out of a sense of duty to keep the human race alive, you're most likely full of shit.

There's overpopulation already.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 07:09:32 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>do you understand that there is no way in all possible hell that you can logically believe what you're saying? You're arguing a point that has absolutely no significance in life. You act like wishing to have children is like starting a damn war, yet you say you're not depressed. How does this fit? What keeps you from returning to non-existance? fear?

You are twisting my words.

I don't see it as "starting a damn war", I see it as deciding somethign which isn't your decision to make.

And I can more or less live with that as long as people don't try to make it look like it is something else than "-I- want a kid".

And I don't end it because I like it, like I have said several times before, and that doesn't mean that somebody else will like it as well, like I have also said several times already.

>my point is that your parents know what's best for you, at least in the begining. They certainly know more than a non-existant fetus. the power to create life belongs in the hands of people who have been alive for 25+ years rather than someone who has never experienced an instant of it.

The "power" yes, but that's not the point.

How do you know what's best for something that doesn't exist?

>way to avoid my point and be a condescending little shit at the same time.

What is your point then.

>how can you claim you're not depressed after saying that?

I am not, for fuck's sake lol, really give it a rest.

>how different do you think people's experiences are out there? EVERYONE feels happy at times, everyone feels sad at times, EVERYONE.

Indeed, and that's one of the points I'm making. For every "happy" person I'll show you a malcontent one.

>they will have interests.

If you don't put them onto the world they don't have any and will never regret having had none either since again, they don't exist so cannot want to exist either.

By saying "they will have interests" you're skipping a step.

>how do you condemn my argument above(or ignore it, rather) and then use the same point down here to attempt to strike against me? it is the most basic instinct, but it can be overcome... as you've seen twice?

My point exactly. It is a basic instincts and the thing about humans is that if they want they can overcome their instincts.

And just like that, wanting to have a kid is something you can decide about even if it is a basic instinct.

And again, I couldn't care less if everybody started spawning like geneticly manipulated testosteronebunnies with duracell batteries up their asses, it's when people pretend they're doing it for somebody else than their own desire to have a children that I get irritated.

>wtf are you talking about, "that's biology"? the chinese are notorious for killing their baby daughters, or were at least, dunno what the story is now.

Read above, instincts can be overcome.

Some do it, others don't.

There is a difference between being born and having to kill yourself because you're miserable and just never having to deal with it at all when you weren't "created".

>could you imagine god sitting in front of a little spirit and saying... look, you can chill here w/ me or you can go out on your own and see what becomes of you. You'll see tragedy, you'll see comedy, you won't remember that i'm here so you'll fear like hell coming back to me, but you will be in charge." i do not believe in god so i don't want to hear about your dogmatisms.

Lol I don't believe in god either, so I don't really know where you're getting at with this.

>that's life dude, why are you so afraid of it?

I am not.

And for the 100th time, it's not because you and I aren't somebody else isn't either.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 07:12:15 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>And I still think arguing with someone who argues for argument's sake is pointless...

Haha yeah, I don't really believe in what I'm saying, I just like defending thoughts which I don't support.

Like I said before, I can see how it's easier to dismiss what I'm saying instead of fighting a lost battle trying to come up with a valid counter.

At least asswipe for example tries.

>And I still like my energy theory, which I think is pretty accurate.

I'm sure you do.




"Often what you see is mainly what you look for."


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 07:15:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>christophe still whines.


Haha, I don't whine, I'm just a lonesome knight in shiny armor fighting hypocrisy ;o)


Like I said, I would have no problem with it if people just said

"Yeah I know it's not my choice to make, but fuck that, I can "make" it if I want and I want a kid right now so fuck it, I'm going to have me a baby."


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 07:18:02 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Asswipe said:
>i'm curious, where'd you go to med school and what are you doing now?

Haha


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 07:20:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Nonetheless, they -are- here, and so we are not really making a choice to "bring them into this world" since they already exist, albeit in a different shape and form...

And who are you to decide that you should change their form of existance.

If you think they already exist but in a different way, it comes down to the same thing.


 
Kira Posted: Fri Jun 18 10:30:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Sailovzi said:
>>You're the one arguing that a fetus doesn't have the right to choice.
>
>Because like I said before, I don't see a foetus as a human being.


A non-existant fetus isn't a human being either.


 
Kira Posted: Fri Jun 18 10:41:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>>
>And if you honnestly believe people get children out of a sense of duty to keep the human race alive, you're most likely full of shit.

Haha no, the way I see it all action is selfish, and that's the way it should be. It's one of those things that's so obvious to me as to seem hardly worth bickering about, like love, or my particular brand of will to live.

However, I also see that people need to believe that some things they do are entirely for someone else, and that's good too. It gives you a kind of courage you probably could never have otherwise. I myself have felt this, though I know that everything I do begins with a consideration for my own feelings.

Maybe now you can quit complaining and stop dancing around your own hypocrisy.

>
>There's overpopulation already.

No there isn't.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 10:45:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>Christophe said:
>>Sailovzi said:
>>>You're the one arguing that a fetus doesn't have the right to choice.
>>
>>Because like I said before, I don't see a foetus as a human being.
>
>
>A non-existant fetus isn't a human being either.

Untill you decide it should be one


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 10:49:47 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>Haha no, the way I see it all action is selfish, and that's the way it should be. It's one of those things that's so obvious to me as to seem hardly worth bickering about, like love, or my particular brand of will to live.

Indeed, I too believe that everything boils down to being selfish. And I also don't think there's anything "wrong" with that.

I do think it is "wrong" though to pretend it's something else.

>However, I also see that people need to believe that some things they do are entirely for someone else, and that's good too.

I don't see how.

>It gives you a kind of courage you probably could never have otherwise. I myself have felt this, though I know that everything I do begins with a consideration for my own feelings.

You can do something while at the same time you know you're just kidding yourself?

>Maybe now you can quit complaining and stop dancing around your own hypocrisy.

Tell me how I am the hypocrite here.

>>There's overpopulation already.
>
>No there isn't.

Yeah there is.


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 11:26:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>Haha no, the way I see it all action is selfish, and that's the way it should be. It's one of those things that's so obvious to me as to seem hardly worth bickering about, like love, or my particular brand of will to live.

*** Uhm... This brought an idea into my head... Breathing is a choice we make, because we can certainly choose to stop breathing, since it is a voluntary reflex... So... breathing is selfish too... Isnt that odd?

And I'm gonna quote you from higher up in the thread as well...

>A non-existant fetus isn't a human being either.

Nope, they're not, so therefore, according to what Christophe poses as his excuses for abortion, you wouldnt be making a choice about bringing a new human into this world either, because at the time your fornicate, up until the time the baby is about 7 mos. in gestation, (when it can readily survive on its own), it's not a "human being", hence, by the time you can make a conscious choice to bring/not bring a "human being" into this world... It's already too late!


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 11:30:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And just to clarify something...

I -never- said I wanted to bring a child into this world because "it was good for it" or because "it wanted to be born"

I want a child. Period. I want to be able to give it all I couldnt have or didnt get.

*I* being the key word here. I never said I wanted to bring a child into this world for completely unselfish reasons. I don't know where anybody could have gotten that out of.

And I thought the REAL issue at stake was the child's choice to be born/not born, not whether one was having a child for selfish/unselfish reasons... That's completely beside the point.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 11:37:40 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Nope, they're not, so therefore, according to what Christophe poses as his excuses for abortion, you wouldnt be making a choice about bringing a new human into this world either, because at the time your fornicate, up until the time the baby is about 7 mos. in gestation, (when it can readily survive on its own) it's not a "human being", hence, by the time you can make a conscious choice to bring/not bring a "human being" into this world... It's already too late!

What kind of bullshit is that? You can only decide after 7 months?

I don't know what age is the limit to do an abortion but I am pretty sure it is under 7 months.

And you do make the choice when getting a kid, and you have the time to undo it untill your choice has grown into one.


 
Kira Posted: Fri Jun 18 11:38:58 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Sailovzi said:
>
>I do think it is "wrong" though to pretend it's something else.

That's where we differ. *Shrugs*

>>
>You can do something while at the same time you know you're just kidding yourself?

Sure can. ; )

>>
>Tell me how I am the hypocrite here.

You say that it is wrong to force life on someone who may not want it, but not wrong to deny life to someone who may want it.

If a fetus is not human, and a non-fetus is not human, they have the same rights.

I don't know why you find this so difficult to grasp.

>>No there isn't.
>
>Yeah there is.

No there isn't, infinity.


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 11:46:52 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sailovzi said:
>>>No there isn't.
>>
>>Yeah there is.
>
>No there isn't, infinity.


*ROTFLMAO*

sounds like myself arguing with my brother like 15 years ago... LOL


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 11:56:00 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>I want a child. Period. I want to be able to give it all I couldnt have or didnt get.

So you want to redo your youth through your kid since you didn't like your own?

>*I* being the key word here. I never said I wanted to bring a child into this world for completely unselfish reasons. I don't know where anybody could have gotten that out of.

It started out with you saying that your situation would have no impact on the kid whatsoever.

Then it went on to putting burdens on people's shoulders of which I personally doubt that they see the full consequences in a very likely worst case scenario (you and your gf breaking up, let's not kid ourselves here, the chances of that happening are not exactly non-existent, which doesn't mean that I hope that happens all I'm saying is that it's a serious possibility) and then you'll have a guy being the father of a child with the ex-gf of his sister. And same reasonably weird situation for the children, certainly in that event.

Can you even begin to imagine the awkward situations that could result in?

and to quote you:

"Thinking like that will bring the human race to extinction"

>And I thought the REAL issue at stake was the child's choice to be born/not born, not whether one was having a child for selfish/unselfish reasons... That's completely beside the point.

No it isn't. It's completely the point, you make yourself think you have the right out of selfishness.


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 12:46:37 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Oh. And one further point of clarification.

My childhood wasnt exactly perfect, which I am sure some of you will want to point out at a later time... But it made me into who I am, so I don't dislike it either. If I mentioned I would bring a child into this world to give him/her all that I lacked, it's not because I feel sorry for myself over my childhood.


 
Christian Posted: Fri Jun 18 13:08:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I wonder what Christophe's swastika means...cause I sure don't fit THAT status quo... please advise, if you can, Christophe...or maybe I'm not "perfect" enough to know???


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 13:26:40 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christian said:
>I wonder what Christophe's swastika means...cause I sure don't fit THAT status quo... please advise, if you can, Christophe...or maybe I'm not "perfect" enough to know???

*ROTFLMAO*
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

*coughs*
*wheezes*

oooooh god... I either have to stop laughing so hard or quit smoking...

*wheezes*

Where's my inhaler?


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 13:53:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>My childhood wasnt exactly perfect, which I am sure some of you will want to point out at a later time... But it made me into who I am, so I don't dislike it either. If I mentioned I would bring a child into this world to give him/her all that I lacked, it's not because I feel sorry for myself over my childhood.

Perhaps not consciously.

You know those mothers who take their 5-6 year old daughters to "beauty contests" and say they do it because the kids like it?


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 13:55:06 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christian said:
>I wonder what Christophe's swastika means...cause I sure don't fit THAT status quo... please advise, if you can, Christophe...or maybe I'm not "perfect" enough to know???

What does being perfect have to do with this?

Anyway, it symbolises that religion (in this case christianity but it goes for all others as far a I'm concerned) is just as bad as nazi-ism.

Would have been gone for quite a while, you can thank erika that it's still up.

Muhahaha.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 13:57:31 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  "Bad" is not the word perhaps.

Freedom of choice also means freedom of speech to state the choices you make.

If you want to be a relgious fanatic, by all means, do as you please.

If you want to be a nazi, fine, you won't hear me complaining.

As long as you don't go causing other people harm that is (goes for both religious people and nazis).


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:01:14 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Interview with an Arab

Q: Your name please?
A: Abdul Aziz
Q: Sex?
A: Twice a week
Q: I mean, Male or Female?
A: Doesn't matter. Sometimes even camels.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:15:56 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>*ROTFLMAO*
>LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL

You're the gloating kind, aren't you.

I recognise this team-like us-against-him-feeling from my kindergarten adversaries when I kicked their asses in a battle of wits and they managed to pull a decent shot off as well.


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:18:49 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>You're the gloating kind, aren't you.
>
>I recognise this team-like us-against-him-feeling from my kindergarten adversaries when I kicked their asses in a battle of wits and they managed to pull a decent shot off as well.

Tsk. Feel as you will, I view you as I am sure the elders viewed me when I was a 17 yr old basketcase...

Oh, and I'm not ignoring you anymore. It's not worth the aggravation to ignore an irritable teenager.


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:20:05 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'll just take your comments from who they're coming from.

A kid who hasn't even had to support himself, much less lived his life on his own, and who enjoys the commotion caused by his "controversial" opinions which are expressed for the sole means of irritating people.



 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:25:34 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Tsk. Feel as you will, I view you as I am sure the elders viewed me when I was a 17 yr old basketcase...

And you have every right to think that way.

>Oh, and I'm not ignoring you anymore. It's not worth the aggravation to ignore an irritable teenager.

Haha, weak.

Don't lower yourself.

You act more like a teenager than I ever did at any given point during my life.

Like I said, you are only accentuating your ignorance and stating how powerless you are to defend yourself against me by ignoring me or using this as the only "valid" thing you can bring up against me.


But hey, don't let me stop you.


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:27:27 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
*nods and smiles*

(that's what you're supposed to do when some senseless person that becomes very aggressive says something to you... nod and smile)

*pats you on the head*


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:30:18 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>
>*nods and smiles*
>
>(that's what you're supposed to do when some senseless person that becomes very aggressive says something to you... nod and smile)
>
>*pats you on the head*

Haha.

I'm not being agressive, and if you think you can piss me off you overestimate yourself.

You are boosting my ego with stuff like this, it only proves my intellectual superiority towards you.


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:34:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
Right Christophe, right

You sure are superior

*bows down to you*


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:35:23 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>You are boosting my ego with stuff like this, it only proves my intellectual superiority towards you.

The only thing it's proving is your undying and completely overboard need to show other people you are right, and they are wrong. I'm no longer going to play your little game.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:38:17 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>The only thing it's proving is your undying and completely overboard need to show other people you are right, and they are wrong. I'm no longer going to play your little game.


Fine by me.

Withdrawal means you lose.

Won with the ignoring thing as well, at last I can change the avatar.


I'm so evil.


 
Christian Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:39:15 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I C


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:41:12 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Yes, I see too.

If what he wanted was to "win". Fine.

He can have his little victory and his little dance.

Doesn't mean a thing.


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:42:39 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Actually it does...

It means he is an immature child who can't stand to lose.

Much like the girl who dragged herself and her gf out of my home the other day because she was playing cards and losing, after having proclaimed how good she was in the game...

Christophe just cant bear to lose after having proclaimed so many times how "intellectually superior" he is


 
FN Posted: Fri Jun 18 14:50:55 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>Actually it does...
>
>It means he is an immature child who can't stand to lose.

Seeing how you keep reacting I think you're the one who can't stand to lose :o)

>Christophe just cant bear to lose after having proclaimed so many times how "intellectually superior" he is

I said it once, after I had inflicted a humiliating defeat on you.




Don't take it all so hard :o)


 
erikagm Posted: Fri Jun 18 15:18:07 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm not... I was just making a point.

Gone to lunch now...

Abuse my absence while you can


 
Asswipe Posted: Fri Jun 18 17:28:10 2004 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Asswipe said:
>>do you understand that there is no way in all possible hell that you can logically believe what you're saying? You're arguing a point that has absolutely no significance in life. You act like wishing to have children is like starting a damn war, yet you say you're not depressed. How does this fit? What keeps you from returning to non-existance? fear?
>
>You are twisting my words.
>
>I don't see it as "starting a damn war", I see it as deciding somethign which isn't your decision to make.

i meant you talk about life, and forcing someone into this meaningless existance, as if were as evil as starting a war. Whose fucking decision is it? Whose do you want it to be?

I can't believe you can stand here and call people hypocritical while you are sitting there saying how it isn't fair that we don't have a choice to join this world or not. Do you recall in the first thread, that spawned this one, when zaqj(s) posted his thoughts on problems and if you can't solve them, don't worry about them? And i recall you liking it so much you wanted to "save it to your harddrive", doesn't the same rule apply and arn't you being hypocritical supporting a side that cannot be supported? or that is meaningless to do so since there is no way around it?

>
>And I can more or less live with that as long as people don't try to make it look like it is something else than "-I- want a kid".

when have you ever heard someone say anything about their motives for having a child?

>
>And I don't end it because I like it, like I have said several times before, and that doesn't mean that somebody else will like it as well, like I have also said several times already.

exactly, now if you didn't like a single thing about the world and saw no hope for improvement, you would commit suicide, but based on the % of people who commit suicide, i'd say more people like being alive, or at least fear not having life enough so as to make 'em not commit suicide. this meaning that a much much much higher percentage of people out there would rather exist in this world than return to nothingness, meaning that probability supports having children. this isn't taking into account people who believe about afterlifes, who cares what happens to them?

>
>>my point is that your parents know what's best for you, at least in the begining. They certainly know more than a non-existant fetus. the power to create life belongs in the hands of people who have been alive for 25+ years rather than someone who has never experienced an instant of it.
>
>The "power" yes, but that's not the point.
>
>How do you know what's best for something that doesn't exist?

i know that i would rather be alive than not exist, as would everyone else out there who's still alive. probability says "the wisps of undifferentiated nothingness" would jump on the band wagon.

>
>>way to avoid my point and be a condescending little shit at the same time.
>
>What is your point then.
>

go back and read the paragraph, which you took one line or so to comment on, and find it. but chances are i've reiterated it.

>
>>how different do you think people's experiences are out there? EVERYONE feels happy at times, everyone feels sad at times, EVERYONE.
>
>Indeed, and that's one of the points I'm making. For every "happy" person I'll show you a malcontent one.

and for every malcontent person, i'll show you him a week later and he'll be happy. for every happy person, i'll show you a time when he's sad. happyness comes to everyone.

>
>>they will have interests.
>
>If you don't put them onto the world they don't have any and will never regret having had none either since again, they don't exist so cannot want to exist either.
>
>By saying "they will have interests" you're skipping a step.

what step is that?

>
>>how do you condemn my argument above(or ignore it, rather) and then use the same point down here to attempt to strike against me? it is the most basic instinct, but it can be overcome... as you've seen twice?
>
>My point exactly. It is a basic instincts and the thing about humans is that if they want they can overcome their instincts.

your point exactly was to not listen to my argument? what instincts are we overcoming here again? i forget and don't have the time to read through this junk atm.

>
>And just like that, wanting to have a kid is something you can decide about even if it is a basic instinct.

yes, it is, as you can go against the instinct of self-preservation and choose non-existance if it is what you choose when you can actually make a choice.

>
>And again, I couldn't care less if everybody started spawning like geneticly manipulated testosteronebunnies with duracell batteries up their asses, it's when people pretend they're doing it for somebody else than their own desire to have a children that I get irritated.

again, when the hell do you ever hear people talk about their motives for having a kid? If you see a pregnant lady, and ask her "why are you having a baby?" they will say, "because i want a family".

>
>There is a difference between being born and having to kill yourself because you're miserable and just never having to deal with it at all when you weren't "created".

yes, in the 2nd case you get this choice that you so wish the unborn could make.

>
>>could you imagine god sitting in front of a little spirit and saying... look, you can chill here w/ me or you can go out on your own and see what becomes of you. You'll see tragedy, you'll see comedy, you won't remember that i'm here so you'll fear like hell coming back to me, but you will be in charge." i do not believe in god so i don't want to hear about your dogmatisms.
>
>Lol I don't believe in god either, so I don't really know where you're getting at with this.

was just imagining a scenario where little non-babies were given a choice to live or stay not alive. it's surely faulty but funny and i think they'd choose life anyway, depending on their conditions in nonexistance.

>
>>that's life dude, why are you so afraid of it?
>
>I am not.
>
>And for the 100th time, it's not because you and I aren't somebody else isn't either.

probability of someone committing suicide = very very low.



 



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