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Depressed
baristapro Posted: Thu Jan 27 20:47:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  It's winter here, the snow drifts pilling on my doorway, the bills pilling on my living room table. The heat bill is due this week, but with school books, rent, credit companies, and other necessities in tow, there is no way to give them any money. I suppose that my apartment is fated to freeze, though I'm sure that things will work themselves out.
So I'm depressed as all hell, and though GT is not the place to write about one's personal woes, I feel compelled to put this here. Perhaps it's because I know that actual people are reading this, rare individuals who will most likely sympathize with my plight.
But really, what I'm looking for in this thread is not sympathy, but rather empathy, so that we may all support each other in one means or another.
So, in short, are you depressed, and if so, why?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Jan 27 20:56:59 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  No depression here, hell I just got married four weeks ago.
I would feel a little better though if someone would put me back on her friends list at livejournal.


 
baristapro Posted: Thu Jan 27 20:58:05 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>No depression here, hell I just got married four weeks ago.
>I would feel a little better though if someone would put me back on her friends list at livejournal.

Hey, done and done.
And it's not friends only anymore.


 
thecitizen Posted: Thu Jan 27 21:09:39 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Well, I am not depressed now but I have been, and although my bills are also gathering up..I can't possibly care less, I got tired of worrying about money and so on.
My biggest reason for being depressed in the past is being so freaking alone, no one who I can talk to in a deep mind level, being conscious and have my eyes open and see we are so full of shit, everthing is sensless and pointless, we are going no fucking where. And realize I will probably never find someone to love and share my whole self with..is boring. I rather be alone, therefore I spend most of the time at home reading, painting etc. (no TV)


 
Ahriman Posted: Thu Jan 27 21:26:43 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Yea, I'm stuck in that period in which I have to figure out the rest of my life. Junior year of high school is a bitch. Decisions have to be made soon. I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't want to seperate myself from my girlfriend by joining the military, but I don't have the financial support to go to college right now (hence the military). If I don't make it into the military, I have no idea what to do. All I have in my life right now is her. All I care about is her. I don't want to leave her. I'd rather be shot. What to do, what to do


 
Asswipe Posted: Thu Jan 27 21:31:08 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i've got my ups and downs, probably due to some psychological disorders, as nothing is really too bad in my life, aside from the usual buddhist despair stuff from the pointlessness to it all, etc. but hey, i've got my alcohol and i've a wee dream that i'm taking steps towards and i'm meeting a lot of people in classes that i actually admire. things are just going real quick, real fucking quick.


 
Puck Posted: Thu Jan 27 21:32:56 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ahriman said:
>Junior year of high school is a bitch.

It's been kind to me. I've made no sure decisions, applied to no colleges, and done nothing to prepare for my post-high school life.
I couldn't be much happier.
Next year might stress the hell out of me.


 
lazyelephant Posted: Thu Jan 27 21:35:18 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ahriman said:
>Yea, I'm stuck in that period in which I have to figure out the rest of my life. Junior year of high school is a bitch. Decisions have to be made soon. I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't want to seperate myself from my girlfriend by joining the military, but I don't have the financial support to go to college right now (hence the military). If I don't make it into the military, I have no idea what to do. All I have in my life right now is her. All I care about is her. I don't want to leave her. I'd rather be shot. What to do, what to do

this is a big issue with me too. i have no idea where i'm going for college, and i know that if my bf goes elsewhere, i'll be devastated...i don't have a lot of money either, but i work hard in school, hoping my good grades and community service will attract scholarships. my folks are gonna help with tuition, and there's always loans. i couldn't join the military (or anything else) even if i wanted to. i have asthma, so it keeps me from doing things. i'm kinda confused as to what i'm gonna do, but i'll tell you not to give up. all i have now is my bf, and i'm not gonna let him slip through my fingers like so many other things have. you could always get a degree in business marketing, it is a growing field, and entry level pay is above average (w/e average is). good luck


 
addi Posted: Thu Jan 27 21:57:34 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>No depression here, hell I just got married four weeks ago.


Be patient, friend. Give the marriage a little more time. The depression will come
: )


I'm unreasonably cheerful this week. My next bout with depression isn't scheduled till next tuesday.
Anyway, being in a good mood for more that 24 hours at a time makes me nervous.


 
iggy Posted: Thu Jan 27 22:06:28 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Hypocrite said:
>So I'm depressed as all hell, and though GT is not the place to write about one's personal woes, I feel compelled to put this here. Perhaps it's because I know that actual people are reading this, rare individuals who will most likely sympathize with my plight.
>But really, what I'm looking for in this thread is not sympathy, but rather empathy, so that we may all support each other in one means or another.


HUGS


 
iggy Posted: Thu Jan 27 22:08:51 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i am depressed.
just that i don;t really understand why.

not really spiral downwards kind of depressed. but just not feeling too good about it.

oh yeah by the way.

it's exactly 2 years to the day of our first date. maybe it's a subconscious kinda mindfuck


 
Puck Posted: Thu Jan 27 22:16:56 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  *hugs to all youse guys who need them*


 
kurohyou Posted: Fri Jan 28 00:52:31 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Can't say that I'm terribly depressed rignt now. Nor am I all that worried. My new year started off frought with apprehension about a fair number of things ranging from my relationship with my wife, to my job, to my kids. Yet even in the face of heading into what could easily be one of the most hectic and chaotic years of my life, I'm upbeat.

About a year ago I began studying buddhism, and I can't tell you how much that has helped me to get control of my mind, and help me to find some much needed peace.

My life has not changed a whole lot, but my outlook on it has, as have my reactions to it.

What worries me now is other people, people around me, friends, family, acquaintences whom i know.

But life is full of cycles. Last week I was pretty angry, not for any reason in particular, and the week before I was depressed. It happens, that's just the way things go. I'm sure you don't need to be told that.

For me though, those cycles of depression and anger have turned into welcome times. Not because I enjoy them. While in the midst of them I can't wait for them to end. But on the other side of them, I enjoy looking back and saying "I lived through that, what's next"

I believe that its those chaotic and turbulent times during which we grow the most. Its when our character is tested and our resolve to live is strengthened. I'm begining to see those feelings as not as omnious as I once did.

Hang in there, you'll be better for it once its done.

My thoughts to all who are in turmoil...

For what its worth...


 
kurohyou Posted: Fri Jan 28 00:54:43 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Hypocrite said:
> GT is not the place to write about one's personal woes, I feel compelled to put this here.

I'm sure we all have let loose with our personal woes, don't worry about it. You're in good company.

For what its worth...


 
Dancer Posted: Fri Jan 28 01:40:33 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I empathise with you, i have bills months back which i simply hate to open, or lay my eyes on them. sometimes, i just wait for the red slip to come before i grudgingly pay up the bills. i'm not depress though as i know things will work out slowly as long as you maintain within yourself an optimism. Just be glad that we have our means of earning a decent living, and always know that health is the most important thing in your life, so maintain a good health, try to be happy, i would say the rest is pretty much secondary.

hey citizen, you sound really down. don't gloat over your lack of love..go out and make more friends! in other words..go search for love.


 
Posted: Fri Jan 28 02:18:25 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I am a philosophy major with debt issues.


(PS: give me money. so as to end said depression. http://politicoma.com )
















DID YOU HEAR ME?
PHILOSOPHY MAJOR.
I AM FUCKED.


 
sweet p Posted: Fri Jan 28 02:22:09 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Lately I just feel out of control. It's like I belong to my feelings.
I don't like it too much and I am trying to make it stop.


 
beetlebum Posted: Fri Jan 28 02:54:52 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
>DID YOU HEAR ME?
>PHILOSOPHY MAJOR.
>I AM FUCKED.

So, so, so not true.:) I am hoping you're saying this a *smidgen* tongue-in-cheek. I visited your website... Jesus! I was a philosophy major, graduated with that degree (and a few others but none of them rocked anyone's world, really), and got a million job offers (okay, like 7) no problem, all with suitable salaries and in places like Boston/NYC. And I didn't have half the stuff you have going for you-- I wish I had maintained my own business through school and could spin and came up with savvy websites.
You could come give motivational talks to the philosophy majors at my school, because we mostly, just, well, read. And wrote. That was about it. BLAH.
Also, getting into law school with a philosophy degree on the North Am. continent isn't all that difficult, either. I know. :)
P.S.: ::whispering:: I secretly think you might be a closet-overacheiver. Ssssshh. big grin.


 
DanSRose Posted: Fri Jan 28 03:55:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Hypocrite said:
> GT is not the place to write about one's personal woes, I feel compelled to put this here.

Sure it is. We actually care here, so let it out :)

Over the summer, I was diagnosed with clincal major depression, so yes I am. For me, it's brain chemistry, being an emotional recluse, circumstance, being isolated by habit, choice, and circumstance, a product of growing up in a highly passive aggressive home, and my mind is ... is a very interesting place.


 
Mesh Posted: Fri Jan 28 04:30:48 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I dont know If I am suffer from depresiion or not, but I sure as hell am not sane I can tell you this.


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 28 05:15:18 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>No depression here, hell I just got married four weeks ago.

Ask him again in four years


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 28 05:22:59 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm reasonably happy with my life. Well, I don't feel bad.

No money problems or whatever, it costs close to nothing to go to university/college over here, especially compared to what I hear about the American way of handling school.

I have a pretty good idea of where I want to take my life and at the moment everything seems to be right on schedule so no probs there either.

I do have some substantial "worries" that I try and cope with on a daily basis, but it's nothing I can't handle.

The only thing that has me doubting is how I'm undecided as what I want to do with my lovelife. Meh.


 
addi Posted: Fri Jan 28 07:09:10 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CriminalSaint said:
>I am a philosophy major with debt issues.

Look on the bright side, Criminal. You could be a philosophy major with sexual identity issues.

You know I was one too, and my life has been just a series of one good event after another.
Having lots of money is over rated anyway. It's the root of all evil, you know.



 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 28 07:42:55 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Poverty is the root of all evil.


 
Mesh Posted: Fri Jan 28 08:25:22 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  God is the root of all evil.

Isnt that right, Trogdor? Hmmmmmm? ISNT THAT RIGHT TROGDOR!?!?! Answer me you bastard your religion is being attacked you must come defend it now.


 
Mark Posted: Fri Jan 28 08:41:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Poverty is the root of all evil.
Money is the root of all evil. It is because of money (bartering or mediums of exchange to be more specific) that poverty can exist (imho of course).


 
addi Posted: Fri Jan 28 08:56:07 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  My pastor told me Eve was the root of all evil
My president told me the French are the root of all evil
Personally, I'm beginning to suspect beetlebum has something to do with it



: )


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 28 09:22:43 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Wolffie said:
>Money is the root of all evil. It is because of money (bartering or mediums of exchange to be more specific) that poverty can exist (imho of course).

Where would the world be without money.

Then you'd see an "evil" place.


 
breeze Posted: Fri Jan 28 09:48:28 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm not depressed and in fact I am unshamefully happy for some reason. Even though I also have tons of bills to pay, which will have to wait, due to college fees priority, also feel kinda lonely, lost my part-time and currently in the search for another one, and it's still awfully freezing in here.

But on the other hand it finally stopped snowing, yesterday I've got full-time offer even though I don't graduate till December, I filled my lonely time with salsa and guitar lessons and now I'm going to nyc for a weekend..


 
beetlebum Posted: Fri Jan 28 09:58:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addison said:
>My pastor told me Eve was the root of all evil
>My president told me the French are the root of all evil
>Personally, I'm beginning to suspect beetlebum has something to do with it



::looks around snarkily::
MUAH HA HA HA HA HA HA


i mean, what?! who?! me?! that's PREPOSTEROUS.
;o)




 
simonvii Posted: Fri Jan 28 11:48:38 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ive been depressed lots, but now that ive heard the following (either from j.d. salinger or hemingway) im ok:

"yesterday does not exist; tomorrow does not exist; the only thing that exists is right now"

yeah i guess its hemingway, from "for whom the bell tolls"...anyway it makes sense...tomorrow has enough worries without our worrying about them now...

read the last half of matthew chapter 6


 
libra Posted: Fri Jan 28 12:40:42 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I've actually always been slightly surprised that I never really get depressed. Other people in similar times and places have, especially back when i was in high school. But for some reason, I tend to push things that would make me feel sad or hurt away after a few minutes of thought.

My heart goes out to all of you who are having problems and though there's not much any of us can do through the internet, I'm always around to talk on MSN or AIM.


 
Posted: Fri Jan 28 13:29:23 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>I'm always around for naked webcam chats on MSN or AIM.

well... there goes that depression!


 
FN Posted: Fri Jan 28 13:44:50 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CriminalSaint said:
>libra said:
>>I'm always around for naked webcam chats on MSN or AIM.
>
>well... there goes that depression!

Suddenly night was falling over the shadowland of my life

I need to get better


 
Aeon Posted: Fri Jan 28 21:11:23 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sometimes the night seems so long, like the darkness lasts forever, but morning always comes along, even if it means stormy weather.


I feel hopeless sometimes. Other times I'm full of hope. Maybe I'm going crazy. Maybe the whole world is just getting more sane.


 
Mesh Posted: Fri Jan 28 23:26:21 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The only easy day was yesterday.


 
Aeon Posted: Sat Jan 29 02:08:24 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Unless your dead. In which case... it's all smoothe sailing in the lake of fire.


 
Mark Posted: Sat Jan 29 04:10:25 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Wolffie said:
>>Money is the root of all evil. It is because of money (bartering or mediums of exchange to be more specific) that poverty can exist (imho of course).
>
>Where would the world be without money.
>
>Then you'd see an "evil" place.
Money and bartering indeed got us pretty far. Because of the pressure you can apply with money great things have been invented (or greed was the pressure). But money has many drawbacks. Those with money have power, not those who have the capacity dealing with power. Because inventions that are good for the environment aren’t good for profit they are not implemented on a large enough scale.

Because companies want to make profit people are extorted, doing underpaid labor, in bad working conditions. In the end those companies will shoot themselves in the foot though, since their former employees can’t pay for their products anymore and neither can those in cheap labor countries.

Money creates a world in which some are rich and a lot are poor, but in the meantime those poor people all get to see what wonders a rich life hold and they lust for it. This either makes them depressive or they also want it and so can turn to crime.

And for this rant my final point: Money creates a tremendous overhead. There are many people needed in the world dealing with money (bankers, stockbrokers, economists, etc.) They all need food and material and don’t produce anything themselves (or make sure people physically get those things)… they are imho a waste of recourses.

With proper care the world can do without money or any form of economy. Sorry for this being a bit short, but i just noticed it is quite off topic :p


 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 29 06:28:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Haha.

That's the first time I've been referred to as a waste of recourses. (presuming that I'll get to be one of the things you named)


Very well, what about this analysis, with some thrown in quotes to spice things up:

"Life is but a game, and money is just a means of keeping score."

Nothing in life or nature is designed to be fair/balanced. Naturally, wealth isn't either. You can only be rich if you can be compared to somebody who's poor.

You generally get rich by being smarter than those who are poor. Or you just have to be incredibly lucky that somebody before you was, fair enough.

It's, like everything, survival of the fittest, which is the common denominator in life last thing I've heard.

"Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo."

H.G. Wells


I don't know what it's like where you guys all live (although in your case Wolf, I don't think it will be that different in Holland) but over here you have this mass of people who are somehow pissed off because they make less money for having less stress, responsibilities and education than others who make double of what they earn.

I mean seriously, what the fuck?

It's not the money of rich people that causes problems, my friend, it's the hypocrisy of those who don't have it.

"All reformers, however strict their social conscience, live in houses just as big as they can pay for."

Logan Pearsall Smith


You have people saying that those in power should spread the profits more amongst those who work for them.

I'm telling you this: if anybody, anybody who says that, would be in the position where they themselves could earn 1000€ more instead of giving it to their employees, they will keep it for themselves. Say that you wouldn't and you're a liar or you don't know what you're talking about, plain and simple.

I do not believe in poverty being an excuse for crime by the way.

"[Watching cheerleaders who get undressed] It appears my wee wee has been stricken with rigor mortis."

Stewie, Family Guy (has nothing to do with anything, I just thought this was incredibly funny)


About the overhead you talked about, without economists/bankers/whatever chances are we'd still be stuck somewhere between the stone age and the middle ages. They do produce something; wealth.

And one of my favourite ones to counter your last sentence:

"Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth - communism is the equal distribution of poverty."

I'll take my chances with the unequal distribution of wealth.


 
Posted: Sat Jan 29 09:13:09 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meh

communism looked good on paper.


 
Mark Posted: Sat Jan 29 11:19:06 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Haha.
>
>That's the first time I've been referred to as a waste of recourses. (presuming that I'll get to be one of the things you named)
>
I’m honored to be the first :p

>Very well, what about this analysis, with some thrown in quotes to spice things up:
>
>"Life is but a game, and money is just a means of keeping score."
>
>Nothing in life or nature is designed to be fair/balanced. Naturally, wealth isn't either. You can only be rich if you can be compared to somebody who's poor.
>
>You generally get rich by being smarter than those who are poor. Or you just have to be incredibly lucky that somebody before you was, fair enough.
>
>It's, like everything, survival of the fittest, which is the common denominator in life last thing I've heard.
>
>"Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo."
>
>H.G. Wells

Not that I’m going to make a big deal out of it, but imho the use of quotes is for people who can’t think of anything for themselves. Be creative, make up your own style.

>I don't know what it's like where you guys all live (although in your case Wolf, I don't think it will be that different in Holland) but over here you have this mass of people who are somehow pissed off because they make less money for having less stress, responsibilities and education than others who make double of what they earn.
>
>I mean seriously, what the fuck?
>
>It's not the money of rich people that causes problems, my friend, it's the hypocrisy of those who don't have it.
>
>"All reformers, however strict their social conscience, live in houses just as big as they can pay for."
>
>Logan Pearsall Smith

It’s true, I ain’t the richest dude in the shed yet, but I can be if I want to. I’ve got the brains and other capacities to do it *if* I would want to. Am I a hypocrite? I don’t know if you would call it that way. I indeed can’t afford everything a truly rich guy can, but I can afford a lot, I just don’t buy all kinds of stuff. I save some money so I can buy or rent my own little house in the future, but most of it goes to charity (research for cures against cancer).

>You have people saying that those in power should spread the profits more amongst those who work for them.
>
>I'm telling you this: if anybody, anybody who says that, would be in the position where they themselves could earn 1000€ more instead of giving it to their employees, they will keep it for themselves. Say that you wouldn't and you're a liar or you don't know what you're talking about, plain and simple.

Lol this reminds me of something that happened at school and at a certain company. As a programmer my main task is to automate companies. Making them more efficient and so that the company can do with less employees. My point is that if I create a application for a company and that makes 10 out of 100 employees redundant, what happens to the ex-employees? Not all of them will be able to get another job (automation… I’m ruining my own future… lol). Their purchasing power will be greatly reduced. The urge of making more money is what is (ironically) going to destroy the economy. I can see it with my own eyes since I’m actually helping doing it! That’s why btw I’m considering a career switch even before I made one.

>I do not believe in poverty being an excuse for crime by the way.

It isn’t always, but it can be. I believe that people can become so desperate that they will turn to crime. There are, of course, many other reasons.

>"[Watching cheerleaders who get undressed] It appears my wee wee has been stricken with rigor mortis."
>
>Stewie, Family Guy (has nothing to do with anything, I just thought this was incredibly funny)

Creating a laugh… truly great to make somebody’s mind thinking of something else, works great with men, won’t work with women or men who have used it for a long time… Not that I know if it was your intention…

>About the overhead you talked about, without economists/bankers/whatever chances are we'd still be stuck somewhere between the stone age and the middle ages. They do produce something; wealth.

As I said, it got us pretty far. But as stated before.. the urge of making more and more money is going to kill the economy. Not only that… to have a good economy, companies must make an ever increasing profit. This can be done by cutting in expenses, but mostly we need an ever increasing population… I don’t think mother earth is going to like that.

>And one of my favourite ones to counter your last sentence:
>
>"Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth - communism is the equal distribution of poverty."
>
>I'll take my chances with the unequal distribution of wealth.

Heh… couldn’t make a statement yourself, my friend. I wonder what communism you’re talking about, but my guess it won’t be Marxism (the true communism). But let’s take a look at it. Since life is complex society is much more than economy alone. If we could evolve from where we are now to a society where there are less people (a much smaller world population), and all those people would be able to lead themselves (I know this is a stretch and that I’m an idealist), taking that at that point everybody would respect each other and a lot of other things that need changing… than yes I still believe in equal wealth. The only problem is that we might need a couple of thousand years to reach it, but hey… I like to think about the future :p

On a side note: you surely aren’t the only one disagrees with me. Even my gf is a bit of a capitalist and thus disagrees with most of my views lol


 
thecitizen Posted: Sat Jan 29 18:48:29 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Guys, have you notice when it comes down to the bottom line, Man is the root of all evil. Is not comunism, money either lack or excess, is US. If every man would understand his place on earth and would be happy with what he already have and learn a little bit of respect for himself and others...things will be quite difference. Comunism does not work I was born and raised in it. Change has to come from every person, evolution and understanding from each of us..and when it comes to evolution we are even bellow the monkeys.
Nothing outhere is wrong, the world existed as it is and everything was fine, is just we and our egos and our will to be better than others and all that fantasy shit we came up with to please ourselves, religion, love, marriage, hate, rage, money, better worst, winners, losers is a matter of comparison..etc..has become this we live on today. Is shit, but hey! you can always sit and don't follow.
All of it gets me depressed sometimes, pisses me off actually! All this stress for nothing, we are going no fucking where. I am tired of being the minority.


 
Aeon Posted: Sat Jan 29 19:00:49 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Here's the simple truth: If there were no roots then there'd be no evil.


 
thecitizen Posted: Sat Jan 29 19:48:06 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  precisely


 
Aeon Posted: Sat Jan 29 19:59:44 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I've got it.



DESTROY ALL PLANTS!

No more roots.


 
TwoPillows Posted: Sat Jan 29 20:09:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CriminalSaint said:
>meh
>
>communism looked good on paper.

not that i have any kind of authority, but i think what was missing was an acknowledgement of the whole self preservation instinct. numero uno etc etc. but maybe i'm wrong. but i agree that communism does sound good in theory, if you're so inclined.


 
TwoPillows Posted: Sat Jan 29 20:10:41 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Aeon said:
>Here's the simple truth: If there were no roots then there'd be no evil.


ehehehehehehehe

*comes from a country where a root is kinda like a bonk*


 
Mark Posted: Sun Jan 30 04:12:32 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Aeon said:
>Here's the simple truth: If there were no roots then there'd be no evil.
lol


 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 30 06:45:54 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  thecitizen said:
>I am tired of being the minority.

See, the point is, everything in life IS about winning and assuring that when compared to others you have a good chance of coming out of it as the better one.

That's nature as well.


 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 30 06:57:59 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Wolffie said:
>Not that I’m going to make a big deal out of it, but imho the use of quotes is for people who can’t think of anything for themselves. Be creative, make up your own style.

Fair enough, I was just updating my site and had them in front of me anyway. Copy/paste isn't that hard and they make a good point in 1 line.

>(research for cures against cancer).

How many people that you know of died because of cancer, and does it run in your family? Perhaps that's the reason instead of global welfare. Could be wrong ofcourse.

Btw, I have some doubt about cures for cancer being welfare. They're being developed anyway by big companies, and once they manage to get it they're going to make big money out of it. I don't really see the link with welfare.

>That’s why btw I’m considering a career switch even before I made one.

And you're thinking that 1 less fish in the tank will make the difference?

>It isn’t always, but it can be.

I couldn't disagree more.

>I believe that people can become so desperate that they will turn to crime. There are, of course, many other reasons.

If crime would be stealing bread out of a grocery store bcause you're hungry, yeah, then I could see it. If crime is molesting people in the street, or vandalising and rape, then no, I don't see the connection with poverty for being an excuse.

>Not that I know if it was your intention…

Not really. I must be a natural.

>This can be done by cutting in expenses, but mostly we need an ever increasing population… I don’t think mother earth is going to like that.

I don't know how much economy you have studied in your life as you're a programmer, but one of the beauties of economy is the fact that it always regulates itself no matter what you throw at it. If at some point it would go down, 10 years down the road it will be up and running again, and the strongest will survive.

>Heh… couldn’t make a statement yourself, my friend.

Actually, I could, but it would be the same thing and I didn't want to pass it off as something I came up with myself. I don't see what that does to devaluate the statement or the point it makes.

>The only problem is that we might need a couple of thousand years to reach it, but hey… I like to think about the future :p

Make that a few million years. You can't rule out human nature/evolution which makes people into the greedy beings they are.

And you know what, as long as there will be somebody like me around, it won't work either. Fuck equality.

And believe me, there are more people like that around than you might think, but only few who don't care to be called selfish and what not because of it.


 
Mark Posted: Sun Jan 30 08:21:10 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Because of some troubles at home my mind isn’t really set for it, but I couldn’t keep you waiting, could I? :p

Christophe said:
>How many people that you know of died because of cancer.

1

>Btw, I have some doubt about cures for cancer being welfare. They're being developed anyway by big companies, and once they manage to get it they're going to make big money out of it. I don't really see the link with welfare.

Perhaps, depends on what policy they run their business. Anyway, I know I’m an idealist so… yes I’m hoping that they will do “the good thing”. And the link with welfare? Well, as far as I know it is sometimes said that because of our welfare we have all those cures etc. Yes I know that has been made possible through money (I ain’t that blind), but because of the same thing (money) imho many good things aren’t pursued because it won’t make any or to little profit though it would benefit a lot of people.

>And you're thinking that 1 less fish in the tank will make the difference?

I don’t know. I f I make my voice loud enough I might be heard and others we see the same. I do know a couple of people who have the same views on this matter. Maybe we can let people think for a change.


>I couldn't disagree more.
>
>If crime would be stealing bread out of a grocery store bcause you're hungry, yeah, then I could see it. If crime is molesting people in the street, or vandalising and rape, then no, I don't see the connection with poverty for being an excuse.

Like I said, It *could* be a reason. Rape etc. are indeed not triggered by poverty.

>I don't know how much economy you have studied in your life as you're a programmer, but one of the beauties of economy is the fact that it always regulates itself no matter what you throw at it. If at some point it would go down, 10 years down the road it will be up and running again, and the strongest will survive.

It mostly regulates itself because of a couple of reasons. The first is that when a new market is discovered economy will be booming. But it seems as if new markets must be found faster and faster to make it work. The second is that if the economy of today doesn’t work new rules will be made to make it work (which doesn’t make it entirely self regulating).

And yet, I believe the economy is nearing its greatest test ever: Automation. Almost everything can be automated. Almost everyone thus can loose his / her job. There has been a similar event in the past namely the industrial revolution, however what happened than was that there was also a population boom which, I believe, made it possible that the economy survived. We don’t have such a thing today, so I wonder how it will do it this time.

>Actually, I could, but it would be the same thing and I didn't want to pass it off as something I came up with myself. I don't see what that does to devaluate the statement or the point it makes.

The thing is that the one you quoted might have meant something a bit different since the way he came to think about this subject will be different that yours. If you make your own statement your mindset is behind it. Imho it is more personal that way.

>Make that a few million years. You can't rule out human nature/evolution which makes people into the greedy beings they are.

And the people of degeneration who would like to keep it that way, who want to keep everything the same, who do not want to evolve… we might get better from it.

>And you know what, as long as there will be somebody like me around, it won't work either. Fuck equality.

I know, that is why I keep this discussions :p Look, I respect your opinion and I hope you respect mine. Both of us might be wrong and maybe we need to work something out. I mean, would you say it is flawless now? Looking from both sides might make things better… for both sides.

>And believe me, there are more people like that around than you might think, but only few who don't care to be called selfish and what not because of it.

That I also know and yet I would like to know who *really* came up with his own opinions. Don’t forget a lot of people don’t make their own thoughts because if they would there would be a lot more opinions in this world. And I believe I’ve said this before… Society is a complex thing. There isn’t only economy, there are many other factors playing along. And if the economy is going to change other things have to change too. If all is done in a nice slow pace it might be so that the likes you won’t exist anymore :p (but of course same could be said for “my” side).

Oh and about your post posted before this one:
>See, the point is, everything in life IS about winning and assuring that when compared >to others you have a good chance of coming out of it as the better one.
>
>That's nature as well.

We humans are supposed to be social beings. Since you like to compare everything with nature… how about nursing elders or children with certain handicaps. Even nursing children that have absolutely no hope of procreation… to sustain our specie. What about them. They are, looking from a nature point of view, a waste of resources, because in nature they would be cast out and left to die. They are bad for the economy. Pumping money into it, while it does not bring any money back.

I’ve been asked the same question (because I said bankers etc. where a waste of resources). Should we act like nature does… My answer: Although it is indeed strange to let them live, giving them a change… I couldn’t bring myself in doing such a deed… I would like to know your point of view.

And now for the end of this rant… lets face it, we could discuss like this forever and perhaps none of us would give in, mostly because we have a screen to hide behind. Lol, I think I would actually like to discuss with you face to face. You seem… interesting.


 
thecitizen Posted: Sun Jan 30 09:28:35 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
Christophe
>See, the point is, everything in life IS about winning and assuring that when compared >to others you have a good chance of coming out of it as the better one.
>
>That's nature as well.


That my friend is bullshit. Life is not about winning, if you don't get that too bad for you but don't put us in the same boat.


 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 30 09:45:51 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  thecitizen said:
>That my friend is bullshit. Life is not about winning, if you don't get that too bad for you but don't put us in the same boat.

Yeah sure, and it's the inside that counts.


 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 30 10:34:21 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Wolffie said:
>I don’t know. I f I make my voice loud enough I might be heard and others we see the same. I do know a couple of people who have the same views on this matter. Maybe we can let people think for a change.

I doubt it.

Idealism is nice man, but it won't get you anywhere, except in a mental institution.

You might have heard me talking about a communist friend of mine before, well, I'll tell you the same thing as I told him: in theory, communism or extreme socialism/solidarity would be a good thing for a lot of people (especially the "poor" ones, what do they have to lose anyway) if they were happy with being part of the masses. After all, wether you want to admit it or not, communism stands for uniformity since the ultimate goal is equality for all.

I'm not like that.

And you'll always have to have somebody who is in control of things, people always crave for a leader, so you can never get equality, there is always somebody on top so the whole thing is flawed form the very start.

If I'm not the one who calls the shots, I'm not joining it. Plain and simple.

If I was the one in charge and you all want to be my communist slaves, by all means, be my guest.

I think that history has made it pretty clear that it doesn't work.

Communism, or any more than center-left socialism kills any form of ambition. Why would you give it your best if you won't get anything out of it, or if you can be a slacker and still get the same as everybody else.

I see it happening over here as well.

You have all these socialists striking and what not for even more pension and earlier retirement, and socialist parties acting like they'll make everything free and trying to give the workless people a bigger paycheck for doing nothing. And who pays for all of that? The "rich", who did work for it instead of begging, no matter how they managed to get the money.

Seriously, the money you get for not working here is only like 125-150€ less than the minimum wage. Do you expect people to go work for a whole month for 150€ more than when they could stay home and do some unofficial jobs on the side?

It's complete and utter crap. I believe in solidarity to some extent, as in assured high quality and affordable medical treatment for everybody, rich or poor like we have now, but excluding those who regularly do drugs of any kind, including sigarettes and alcohol. I believe in giving people who don't have a job the support to sustain themselves untill they find a new one. But I do think that we're taking it way, way too far.

You really try to get a job, but you just can't find one? Ok, "society" can support you, for a while.

You don't try to find a job actively or fuck it up on purpose? Go fuck yourself.

You waste your life on drugs or whatever? Go fuck yourself.

You're too lazy to get an education, and then you complain about not getting paid enough when all you have to do is checking the stuff that passes on the conveyer belt? Go fuck yourself.

I don't think that's all that hard to understand.

The communist guy went on some commy camp for a week or 2 with like-minded people. He said it was bliss, I told him to snap out of it. If it would have been 2 years instead of weeks blood would have stained the walls before you could say "solidarity".

>Like I said, It *could* be a reason. Rape etc. are indeed not triggered by poverty.

How many times have you heard about somebody stealing bread because they're hungry. When you live in Belgium/Holland, you don't have to do that, you get more than enough to sustain yourself.

But then you have, and yeah I'm sorry to say but for fuck's sake that's just simply the way it is, all these "minorities" and "poor people" who think they have the right to bitch about not getting enough for doing nothing and to vandalise public property, rob stores, beat people up, and basicly act like a parasitic nuisance, all with the excuse of "a problematic childhood" and/or "poverty".

And then the politicly correct thinkers act surprised when some of the more realistic people at one point or another say that enough is enough and don't take all of that crap any longer.

>We don’t have such a thing today, so I wonder how it will do it this time.

Lol. Actually, last thing I've heard, by 2050 at this rate and with the joining of Turkey, in Europe "minorities" will have grown larger in numbers than the original Europeans themselves.

Some populations *are* growing, but yeah, those of "Europeans" are decreasing.

>And the people of degeneration who would like to keep it that way, who want to keep everything the same, who do not want to evolve… we might get better from it.

I believe that a lot of things should change, trust me.

>Look, I respect your opinion and I hope you respect mine.

Don't get me wrong, I respect your right to have an opinion and the opinion itself for a chance as well, but like you also said it's purely idealistic and therefor will never become a reality. So I think it's a waste of time and I believe that you show the capacity to do better than somehow chasing an empty dream.

>We humans are supposed to be social beings. Since you like to compare everything with nature… how about nursing elders or children with certain handicaps. Even nursing children that have absolutely no hope of procreation… to sustain our specie. What about them. They are, looking from a nature point of view, a waste of resources, because in nature they would be cast out and left to die.

Where did I say that I think we should slaughter the elder and the handicapped.

>I’ve been asked the same question (because I said bankers etc. where a waste of resources). Should we act like nature does… My answer: Although it is indeed strange to let them live, giving them a change… I couldn’t bring myself in doing such a deed… I would like to know your point of view.

Again, from your point of view they don't do anything, while from my point of view it's quite the opposite.

No bankers etc = no economy = no anything

>You seem… interesting.

Right back at you lol. At least here I can discuss with people instead of them starting to yell at me after 5 minutes for being an arrogant egotistical coldhearted asshole.

Then again, you get used to it after a while lol.


 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 30 10:42:31 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ah, and dan632 says hi, he can't acces GT at the moment since his computer died and the one he's on now somehow blocks it because "terrorist" is in the url.

Haha


 
thecitizen Posted: Sun Jan 30 11:29:43 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  thecitizen said:
>That my friend is bullshit. Life is not about winning, if you don't get that too bad for you but don't put us in the same boat.

Yeah sure, and it's the inside that counts.

Why bother sharing ideas with you, you are already full of concepts and have made your own idea...and have come to your conclusions..however when it comes to it, I am quite selfish, I don't give a shit. I try to be the best person I can be and help anyway I can. I am just tired of stupidity.


 
Mark Posted: Sun Jan 30 17:02:54 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe I will react on your post soon, but not now... I'm just to fscking tired. Just letting you know I haven't given up yet :p


 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 30 17:04:57 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Wolffie said:
>Christophe I will react on your post soon, but not now... I'm just to fscking tired. Just letting you know I haven't given up yet :p

Haha that's alright my man, it's not like you're forced to reply :o)

We'll just act like this all never happened. It'll be our little secret.


 
TwoPillows Posted: Sun Jan 30 17:26:14 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  hrm, i guess in some cases, one could argue that rape, violent crime etc are INFLUENCED by poverty (not created by, but have poverty as a factor) because of ignorance. i guess its that whole cliched thing, ya know, about being poor with little access to (good) education, being angry (and/or hopeless) about your place in society and taking it out on the wrong people, or turniong to substance abuse.

not that these are excuses, just.... i guess it can be possible to link poverty and crimes such as rape etc.


 
Aeon Posted: Sun Jan 30 23:59:31 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Why can't we all just agree to disagree... and then agree that I'm the only one who's right? Only in a perfect world, I guess.


 
Mark Posted: Mon Jan 31 06:58:33 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>I doubt it.
>
>Idealism is nice man, but it won't get you anywhere, except in a mental institution.

Lol, so that’s why people are calling me crazy :p

>You might have heard me talking about a communist friend of mine before, well, I'll tell you the same thing as I told him: in theory, communism or extreme socialism/solidarity would be a good thing for a lot of people (especially the "poor" ones, what do they have to lose anyway) if they were happy with being part of the masses. After all, wether you want to admit it or not, communism stands for uniformity since the ultimate goal is equality for all.
>(…)
>The communist guy went on some commy camp for a week or 2 with like-minded people. He said it was bliss, I told him to snap out of it. If it would have been 2 years instead of weeks blood would have stained the walls before you could say "solidarity".

First: The communism history has proven wrong wasn’t real communism. Leninism is imho just another way to fuck the people around. True communism has never been tested. But even if they would have tried it in Russia in would have collapsed. Why? Because they lack the experience, the history. But mostly because it was a revolution and when taking Marx’ work into account (and I agree with him on this point) is that a restructuring of the social and economical ways should be done slowly and gradually. It needs to evolve.

Second: Most people see communism as an opposite of capitalism or even worse as an anti-capitalism. I believe it is more a post capitalism theory. A theory that is flawed. Why? Because it is still solely based of economy. You cannot only change the economy without changing the social structures or even a culture. Most people won’t see this because they are to specialized on a certain subject (and this is why I resent specialization). It is indeed true that people are not able to lead themselves, that they cannot be real individuals. And I must say, with all those herds our economy can flourish… one only needs to create a hype.

But I do believe people can “learn” to lead themselves, if only they are willing to step outside of the group. But by individualism I do not mean that people should become egoists (if they aren’t already), we need each other. To sustain our level of knowledge (and obtain more) for example we cannot trust on ourselves alone, which bring me to my next point.

Third: I indeed agree that those who do not work and are not willing to work should not get any money. This kind of socialism is fucked up. Even in my own idealistic society where there is no more economy and money etc. people will need to contribute to our society. As long as there is work to be done to keep us moving all of us need to participate.
Fourth: About that guy that went to camp. Well… even I think he doesn’t really know what it would be like. Most people I know who seem to be thinking the same as me actually don’t. The only think about how everybody would be equal and everything would be a bliss, but not really knowing what communism is about. But like I said, I think communism (Marxism) is flawed as well. I don’t know if there is a word for it, but I call myself a post-Marxist.

A friend of mine who is also a socialist in heart believes, because of his own experiences, that our current society is the only one that will work because of the people living in it. I must say I agree with him for the time being, but like I said before we can evolve.

>How many times have you heard about somebody stealing bread because they're hungry. When you live in Belgium/Holland, you don't have to do that, you get more than enough to sustain yourself.

None actually, but I disagree that you get more than enough to sustain yourself. I was once walking around when a women came to me and begged for money. See was looking clean and stuff and you could see she didn’t do drugs (I know those characters by now… you have enough of them in Amsterdam alone). She asked for money so she could sleep in a certain place for homeless people (can’t think of the proper word right now). Anyway I gave her some money and we started talking while walking to the place she wanted to spend the night. She told me she lost her job and wasn’t entitled to social security because, she was told, she had to be out of a job for a certain amount of time. She wasn’t able to keep her home, had nowhere to go and now she can’t get social security because she doesn’t have a home (some bureaucratic crap). Me being skeptical I asked the keeper of the place if he new her. He did and he did check her out for a much as he could… her story was valid.

>But then you have, and yeah I'm sorry to say but for fuck's sake that's just simply the way it is, all these "minorities" and "poor people" who think they have the right to bitch about not getting enough for doing nothing and to vandalise public property, rob stores, beat people up, and basicly act like a parasitic nuisance, all with the excuse of "a problematic childhood" and/or "poverty".
>
>And then the politicly correct thinkers act surprised when some of the more realistic people at one point or another say that enough is enough and don't take all of that crap any longer.

Lol, I know. Problematic childhood is one of the most used excuses I’ve heard and I think it’s one of the worst. I mean I had a nasty childhood, my parents lied to me for so many years… They told me that this guy Sinterklaas was real, while he actually isn’t :p But to be serious, I recognize this problem.

>Lol. Actually, last thing I've heard, by 2050 at this rate and with the joining of Turkey, in Europe "minorities" will have grown larger in numbers than the original Europeans themselves.
>
>Some populations *are* growing, but yeah, those of "Europeans" are decreasing.

Actually I meant world population. At the start of the industrial revolution there where about 700 million people, we now have a bit more that 6 billion. That’s am increase of over 850% in about 300 years. Although there are different opinions about this, I believe that the population increase isn’t going that fast anymore. (on a side note: I think we should drastically decrease the world population if we would want to sustain ourselves with the resources we have).

>>And the people of degeneration who would like to keep it that way, who want to keep everything the same, who do not want to evolve… we might get better from it.
>
>I believe that a lot of things should change, trust me.

Yeah, but you aren’t in control (yet) ;-)

>So I think it's a waste of time and I believe that you show the capacity to do better than somehow chasing an empty dream.

Hmm... we’ll see if I am chasing an empty dream. I must admit that sometimes I do wonder why I want to see those things change, why I just don’t give in and go with the flow. I certainly can make a lot of money if I want to… I don’t know… perhaps it is the urge to make a difference.

>Where did I say that I think we should slaughter the elder and the handicapped.

Well actually you didn’t, but you compare everything with nature… the survival of the fittest. That’s how you describe our society… so I wondered, how do the elder and handicapped fit in?

>Again, from your point of view they don't do anything, while from my point of view it's quite the opposite.
>
>No bankers etc = no economy = no anything

True, for the time being.

>Right back at you lol. At least here I can discuss with people instead of them starting to yell at me after 5 minutes for being an arrogant egotistical coldhearted asshole.
>
>Then again, you get used to it after a while lol.

Yeah, I know. Especially the coldhearted part :p


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Feb 1 10:19:07 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Hi dan632!


 



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