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Six Years and Counting...
kurohyou Posted: Wed Apr 20 13:20:43 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  This is a rehash I'm sure...I know I posted about this last year at this time, but lots of us are still looking for answers, or peace.

........................................

We humans use anniverseries to mark significant events in our lives. Today is the 6th Anniversery of the school shootings at Columbine. Something which no one would like to remember, but something which no one can seem to forget.

I sit here, my blue and silver ribbon pinned to my hip pocket, my way of paying respect to those who died, and, as I do on most anniverseries taking inventory.

Personally the same questions abound in my mind as have been there since this happened. The one nagging one is, a lot of kids get picked on in schools across America, what made these two, or any of thier counterparts for that fact, do the unthinkable?

We all get picked on, I got razed the better part of my school career. From the first event, in first grade, when I was called a "gay-wad" because I kissed my little brother goodbye at the end of recess, to my less than cool hair style throughout elementary and middle school, to being called "mocha-mix" in high school because of my mixed ethnicity, the social aspect of school posed a constant challenge for me. I hated parts of school and I hated a good number of my classmates. I remember hating school so much on some days that I would keep a running list of who I would have killed on a particular day if I'd had a firearm. I wrote stories, with my classmates as characters, killing the ones who I didn't like. I see myself in those two kids. I feel the agnst that they must have felt, and those long lost demons of mine come back.

I've attempted now to answer these questions from a personal side, in hopes of gaining some insight on the question as it relates to the bigger picture. What kept me from snapping? I have to delve pretty deep to come up with any form of rational answer, and even then, the answers that I come up with are surface answers, they don't point to the causes of my actions or the reasons for my decisions. I can sit here now and rationalize in hindsight what I must have been thinking and I can make it sound good, but the truth is I don't know. I honestly don't know what kept me from taking a similar route as Harris and Klebold. I hope to know one day.

But therein lies my connection to this situation. I sit here and I read the accounts of what happened, I hear the stories again, and I see the faces, and I see myself in the faces of those killers. I see myself as a student, full of agnst, full of frustration, and I can't help but ask those faces one question. "I made it? Why didn't you?"

Maybe one day the answers will be there, and we will find understanding, and peace in those answers. Until then the questions will remain. Some fueled with rage for what happened, some with pain over what was lost, and some, as is the case for me, fueled with a need to know why. In hopes of putting to rest the demons which haunt the school, and the minds of those involved.

For what its worth...


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 14:32:12 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I blame gangsta rap ;o)

I can't really relate to your story, or that of those 2 other kids. I've always been one of the "popular" kids.

I'm known to frequently verbally abuse people, but it isn't meant to hurt anybody. Usually I'm just having some fun, and most people who know me a little better know the way it works with me and don't mind, they just start verbally sparring with me sort of speak, and I enjoy that a lot :o) Those around me seem to grow fonder of it the longer they spend some time with me too.

I've always felt that if you're getting picked on, it's your own fault. If I'm wrong in this, feel free to tell me why.

What those columbine kids did isn't excusable in any way, if you are somehow pushed to the limit I think there are better ways to vent it or to do something about it.

And by the way, just out of curiousity (and I hope that you don't take this in some wrong way, isn't meant like that): Do you think the fact that you're of a "mixed ethnical background" has something to do with your rather zealous patriotism? That might be a bit over the top, but you know what I mean. Something subconsious perhaps.


 
kurohyou Posted: Wed Apr 20 14:59:19 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>And by the way, just out of curiousity (and I hope that you don't take this in some wrong way, isn't meant like that): Do you think the fact that you're of a "mixed ethnical background" has something to do with your rather zealous patriotism? That might be a bit over the top, but you know what I mean. Something subconsious perhaps.

I don't know that I understand what you are asking.

I wouldn't classify myself as a zealous patriot, though I may portray myself as such, which is inadvertant or subconcious.

However, I'm not going to say that my ethnic background doesn't have something to do with the way that I see the world or the way that the world sees me.

I guess I need more clarification on what you are asking to feel like I cound respond accurately.

For what its worth...


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Apr 20 15:15:59 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>I've always felt that if you're getting picked on, it's your own fault. If I'm wrong in this, feel free to tell me why.

Growing up I got picked on for all sorts of things, and none of them with any good reason. I owned a pair of jeans with no pockets on the back and people made fun of that... even when the popular girls wore the same. I won a contest to design casual t-shirts for our jazz band, people made fun of the design. I got picked on for wearing my hair long, and more when I got it cut shorter. It stopped when I learned not to care about what they thought. When stopped trying to be liked I stopped getting teased.

Does that make getting picked on my fault? Was it my fault that I was insecure so I got picked on which made me more insecure which made me more of a target?

I'd be curious to see what it looks like from the point of view of someone who was popular.




 
Mark Posted: Wed Apr 20 15:18:55 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>I've always felt that if you're getting picked on, it's your own fault. If I'm wrong in this, feel free to tell me why.
You think so, please explain why. Was it my fault that I was picked on because I did my own thing, I didn't think the way they did, didn't dress in the the latest fashion, didn't just follow everything, made up my own mind. Was it my fault?

I blame the herd :p

Not that I care anymore. Then it did hurt, because deep inside a part of me wanted to belong to that popular group. That part has died now and I killed it myself... By starvation.

But to get a bit more on topic... Even though I was picked on, I never had the intention to kill any of them. In all those years I had only one fistfight, which I stopped at the moment I saw tears in his eyes. I may be idealistic, but the use of violence is something that I strongly resent.


 
kurohyou Posted: Wed Apr 20 15:30:30 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>I've always felt that if you're getting picked on, it's your own fault. If I'm wrong in this, feel free to tell me why.
>
That is a little bit like saying a woman who wore a provocative outfit and was raped was to blame for it.

had more to add but need to go get some food before the health units drop below 10...

For what its worth...


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Apr 20 15:43:52 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Back to the topic at hand...

Over the course of Junior High and early High school I developed a very strong "I'll show them" sort of mentality. For me that became part of my original drive to accomplish the things I have and I take a bit of pleasure running into some people from highschool and talking about what we've done with our lives.

I can also understand other students' suicidal tendencies. They just want it to be over, they can't bear the thought of the years they have left to go before they're done and are too tired to keep fighting. That wasn't me but it wasn't hard for me to sympathize with them.

I also have friends who turned all the frustration into rage towards the people who made their lives difficult. It takes all of some friends will power not to 'beat someones face in' if they ever happen to run into the people who used to give them trouble, even years later.

I think what those two boys had was a dangerous combination of all three. They wanted to be noticed, they wanted to be remembered, they wanted to hurt people and they didn't want to live.

Sadly, sometimes I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 15:46:28 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
>That is a little bit like saying a woman who wore a provocative outfit and was raped was to blame for it.

That's a totally diffirent thing.


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Apr 20 15:48:51 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>kurohyou said:
>>That is a little bit like saying a woman who wore a provocative outfit and was raped was to blame for it.
>
>That's a totally diffirent thing.

How? It's still the "victim was asking for it" mentality. (I, for one, thought it was a very appropriate analogy)


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 15:54:00 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
>I guess I need more clarification on what you are asking to feel like I cound respond accurately.

Well, without wanting to offend you or anything, I was wondering if the fact that you have diffirent ethnical backgrounds has left you a bit insecure as to where your roots are, and wether it has created some sort of identity crisis, which as a result has made you rather patriotic (which is not necessarily a bad thing either) since you need to belong to some group/nation, somehow creating a feeling that you need to overdo it a little to make sure people see you as a "real" american.

I'm asking because I've noticed it on a few occassions that you're pretty big on the stars and stripes, national colours, stuff like that.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 15:56:11 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  jennemmer said:
>How? It's still the "victim was asking for it" mentality. (I, for one, thought it was a very appropriate analogy)

I, for one, don't.

A rapist isn't looking for a scarcely clothed woman, he (or she) is looking for an opportunity.

I haven't heard many reports about scarecly clothed women being raped in the middle of the street during broad daylight.

However, I'm betting that quite a few rapes have happened at night in some rather remote location, with fully clothed women dressed like eskimo's.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 15:59:55 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  jennemmer said:
>Does that make getting picked on my fault? Was it my fault that I was insecure so I got picked on which made me more insecure which made me more of a target?

Without wanting to offend you (I know this can be a very delicate subject), I think it was in a way, yeah.

Being with the "popular" kids, I knew a lot of the "bullies" as well. The whole point was not about giving them an opportunity, but about showing them that you were to weak to defend yourself in either a physical or verbal way.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:01:35 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  *different

I'm tired.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:02:03 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>I haven't heard many reports about scarecly clothed women being raped in the middle of the street during broad daylight.
>
It's happened more than you know.
Check out a movie titled "The Accused" starring Jodi Foster. Based on a true story.


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:02:59 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>jennemmer said:
>>How? It's still the "victim was asking for it" mentality. (I, for one, thought it was a very appropriate analogy)
>
>I, for one, don't.
>
>A rapist isn't looking for a scarcely clothed woman, he (or she) is looking for an opportunity.

Exactly. It's not about the actual circumstances it's about some peoples' view of them. You still haven't explained how you came to the conclusion that the people being picked on were somehow at fault.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:06:20 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Wolffie said:
>Was it my fault that I was picked on because I did my own thing

I've always done "my own thing" as well. I'm doubting that you got picked on because of that.

>I didn't think the way they did, didn't dress in the the latest fashion, didn't just follow everything, made up my own mind. Was it my fault?

I don't really see the connection.

So what you're saying is that in order to be "popular", you have to think, dress, whatever, the same way as some unwritten rule says?

>Not that I care anymore. Then it did hurt, because deep inside a part of me wanted to belong to that popular group. That part has died now and I killed it myself... By starvation.

I doubt that it doesn't still linger on somewhere, you still seem pretty passionate about it.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:07:17 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Christophe said:
>>I haven't heard many reports about scarecly clothed women being raped in the middle of the street during broad daylight.
>>
>It's happened more than you know.
>Check out a movie titled "The Accused" starring Jodi Foster. Based on a true story.

As much as fully clothed women on a dark street or park?


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:09:01 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Without wanting to offend you (I know this can be a very delicate subject), I think it was in a way, yeah.
>
>Being with the "popular" kids, I knew a lot of the "bullies" as well. The whole point was not about giving them an opportunity, but about showing them that you were to weak to defend yourself in either a physical or verbal way.

That I couldn't or wouldn't defend myself... I will admit to that. Sure, guilty. But that doesn't give other people the right to prey on that and derive their fun by making others miserable.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:10:15 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Christophe said:
>>>I haven't heard many reports about scarecly clothed women being raped in the middle of the street during broad daylight.
>>>
>>It's happened more than you know.
>>Check out a movie titled "The Accused" starring Jodi Foster. Based on a true story.
>
>As much as fully clothed women on a dark street or park?
>
No, but we are not talking about rape as a violent crime, but rape as a sex crime. Two totally different things.
It does happen.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:14:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Just because you are not strong enough to defend yourself does not mean it's your fault for being picked on or bullied.
The bullies are the ones at fault.
It's my opinion that the strong have an obligation to defend the weak ones.
Things have a way of changing in life and the ones who were weak as children might very well be powerful as adults, and the bullies and assholes quite often end up as subordinates to their former weak targets.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:16:26 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>No, but we are not talking about rape as a violent crime, but rape as a sex crime. Two totally different things.
>It does happen.

Fair enough, but I don't see how that undermines my point that it isn't the same thing.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:20:15 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>No, but we are not talking about rape as a violent crime, but rape as a sex crime. Two totally different things.
>>It does happen.
>
>Fair enough, but I don't see how that undermines my point that it isn't the same thing.
>
Because it is the same thing if you are talking about rape as a sex crime.
The guy's defense is usually, "did you see how she was dressed" ?, she was just asking for it.


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:20:50 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Fair enough, but I don't see how that undermines my point that it isn't the same thing.

The overall point is that it has been argued in the past that rape victims have been "asking for it". What you implied was that the bullying vicitms are at fault so somehow they are also asking for it.

It is true in neither case. The person who is taking advantage of whatever situation is the one at fault, not the one being taken advantage of.


 
sweet p Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:22:59 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I was sexually assaulted on the subway - a man put his hand up my skirt.

A guy in my class was listening to me tell one of my friends and he jumped in and said "Well, if you weren't wearing that skirt, he wouldn't have put his hand up it. Maybe it's your fault."

That is like saying "If you didn't have a store, then those kids wouldn't have stolen from it."

True, but not an excuse.

Just like "If you weren't you, then those kids wouldn't make fun of you."

The victim isn't the one at fault.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:24:21 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Just because you are not strong enough to defend yourself does not mean it's your fault for being picked on or bullied.

I don't see what's holding anybody back to speak up when they're getting picked on. What do they have to lose anyway.

>The bullies are the ones at fault.

Don't but the cat by the milk if you don't want it to drink.

>It's my opinion that the strong have an obligation to defend the weak ones.

I disagree.

>Things have a way of changing in life and the ones who were weak as children might very well be powerful as adults, and the bullies and assholes quite often end up as subordinates to their former weak targets.

That's like ugly people saying that true beauty is on the inside, hif.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:25:58 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  jennemmer said:
>Christophe said:
>
>>Fair enough, but I don't see how that undermines my point that it isn't the same thing.
>
>The overall point is that it has been argued in the past that rape victims have been "asking for it".

I didn't say that, nor do I believe that, so again, I don't see how that undermines my point.

>What you implied was that the bullying vicitms are at fault so somehow they are also asking for it.

In a way, they are, if you want to put it that way.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:26:56 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:
>I was sexually assaulted on the subway - a man put his hand up my skirt.

People like that should be castrated with a nailclipper.

>A guy in my class was listening to me tell one of my friends and he jumped in and said "Well, if you weren't wearing that skirt, he wouldn't have put his hand up it. Maybe it's your fault."

I'm not that guy in your class.


 
Mark Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:27:23 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>I don't really see the connection.
>
>So what you're saying is that in order to be "popular", you have to think, dress, whatever, the same way as some unwritten rule says?

actually yes, that's what I'm trying to say. My experience is that to be popular there are rules that need to be folowed and if you don't follow one or more of them you can't be popular. Just my experience though, might not always be this way.

But since there are a lot of different groups these days i'll give you an example. A metal guy will never be popular with a group of gangsta rappers.

(this doesn't mean that there can't be a one on one friendship between 2 people comming from different groups. That too I know from experience)

>>Not that I care anymore. Then it did hurt, because deep inside a part of me wanted to belong to that popular group. That part has died now and I killed it myself... By starvation.
>
>I doubt that it doesn't still linger on somewhere, you still seem pretty passionate about it.

hehe... yeah, my Vulcan emotion control was turned off. But to be serious, it isn't that I don't belong in any group... It was when you said it would be your own fault if you're picked on. I mean, what would give anyone a reason to pick on somebody else? Because I couldn't defend myself? Oh, one on one I can (and could) handle myself perfectly. It is the many against one situations that are so unfair. If you're a real man (or woman) take them on alone.

My experience is (Damn... seem to have a lot of experience :p) that when those who picked on me met me when we where both alone they themselves look quite afraid. That is the weakness of the herd.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:34:03 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Wolffie said:
>actually yes, that's what I'm trying to say. My experience is that to be popular there are rules that need to be folowed and if you don't follow one or more of them you can't be popular. Just my experience though, might not always be this way.

Apparently not.

>But since there are a lot of different groups these days i'll give you an example. A metal guy will never be popular with a group of gangsta rappers.

I've never really had problems with anybody, and I'm not in any "group" as far as music style goes.

>I mean, what would give anyone a reason to pick on somebody else?

Because they can. And they can because they're allowed to.

>that when those who picked on me met me when we where both alone they themselves look quite afraid. That is the weakness of the herd.

You might notice that most bullying is done not by the leaders of a group, but by those who are afraid of being picked on themselves.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:34:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Just because you are not strong enough to defend yourself does not mean it's your fault for being picked on or bullied.
>
>I don't see what's holding anybody back to speak up when they're getting picked on. What do they have to lose anyway.
>
That's just it, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there.
Whatever their reasons for not fighting back, and I'm sure they are many and varied, it's no one else's business but their own.
>>The bullies are the ones at fault.
>
>Don't but the cat by the milk if you don't want it to drink.
>
A brilliant observation.
Fact: the bullies are the ones at fault.
Anyone who perpetuates the sufferings of others for pleasure deserves a long lingering death.
>>It's my opinion that the strong have an obligation to defend the weak ones.
>
>I disagree.
>
Opinions vary
>>Things have a way of changing in life and the ones who were weak as children might very well be powerful as adults, and the bullies and assholes quite often end up as subordinates to their former weak targets.
>
>That's like ugly people saying that true beauty is on the inside, hif.
>
No, I merely stated a fact based on life experience.
Many of the weak and bullied are nerds and many nerds end up as powerful businessmen. Many bullies end up in labor intensive jobs working for the former nerds. I've seen this happen over and over again.


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:35:09 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>jennemmer said:
>>Christophe said:
>>
>>>Fair enough, but I don't see how that undermines my point that it isn't the same thing.
>>
>>The overall point is that it has been argued in the past that rape victims have been "asking for it".
>
>I didn't say that, nor do I believe that, so again, I don't see how that undermines my point.
>
>>What you implied was that the bullying vicitms are at fault so somehow they are also asking for it.
>
>In a way, they are, if you want to put it that way.

Not all people are born knowing how to defend themselves physically or mentally. Saying it was my fault for not having learned to stand up for myself would be like saying that it was my fault for getting mugged or raped because I hadn't taken a self-defense course.

It still doesn't give the bully the right.

(By the same token, I would highly encourage anyone to learn to stand up for themselves and to take that self-defense course because there are muggers and bullies and rapists out there)


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:41:17 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Whatever their reasons for not fighting back, and I'm sure they are many and varied, it's no one else's business but their own.

Ofcourse, but then they shouldn't complain about being picked on either.

People tried to pick on me too from time to time, which is pretty natural. Then there's the choice: either you allow that, or you don't. If one person can do that, others can do it too. We're not talking about thriatlons here, just about defending yourselve, and I'm figuring that none of you are verbal retards.

>>Don't but the cat by the milk if you don't want it to drink.
>>
>A brilliant observation.
>Fact: the bullies are the ones at fault.

I'll bring it to your field of interest hif: look at what the US is doing. They invade Iraq/afghanistan/... because they can.

>Opinions vary

Indeed they do.

>No, I merely stated a fact based on life experience.
>Many of the weak and bullied are nerds and many nerds end up as powerful businessmen.

You're probably talking just about the physical bullying.

I doubt it that the leader figures of some of the "popular groups" are destined to become underpaid workers.

Sure, there will be instances when it happens, but I'm fairly certain that just as many "nerds" ruin their lives as well.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:41:44 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  It isnt someones fault if others are bullying them. But, sad to say, if someone doesnt stand up for themselves, it does make them an easier target, and bullies are (usually) weak and insecure themselves, so it only makes sense they go after someone who cant threaten them. That doesnt make it right, and it doesnt make it fair.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:44:29 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  jennemmer said:
>Not all people are born knowing how to defend themselves physically or mentally. Saying it was my fault for not having learned to stand up for myself would be like saying that it was my fault for getting mugged or raped because I hadn't taken a self-defense course.

I don't believe in self-defense courses. Without wanting to sound like a sexist pig, I'm willing to go up against most girls my age, or older ones who've taken a self-defense course, even if they're prepared for it.

>It still doesn't give the bully the right.

Who said anything about life being fair?


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:48:12 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Chris, give me your fucking lunch money, or I'll give you a swirly.


 
sweet p Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:48:17 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>People like that should be castrated with a nailclipper.

Mmhm.
I got him good.
Half punch, half back hand to the face - cos it was a reflex. If I had any time to think about it, it would have been a full punch. I made a scene and told him off infront of everyone on the subway. Very uncharacteristic of me, but it sure scared the crap out of..the both of us.

>I'm not that guy in your class.

I know this. But I was just trying to emphasize that the victim is not at fault.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:48:42 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>Chris, give me your fucking lunch money, or I'll give you a swirly.

Haha. I don't know what a swirly is, so I might just give it to you.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:49:40 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P, you know you can always call on me and several other plonkers to put the hurt on anyone who does something like that too you.


That goes for any of you plinkers.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:50:32 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:
>Christophe said:
>>I'm not that guy in your class.
>
>I know this. But I was just trying to emphasize that the victim is not at fault.

I still don't see the relationship between sexual assault and bullying people.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:51:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Whatever their reasons for not fighting back, and I'm sure they are many and varied, it's no one else's business but their own.
>
>Ofcourse, but then they shouldn't complain about being picked on either.
>
Yes, they should complain, because it's something that no one should have to put up with. Especially if it takes place in a public school.
No one has the "right" to perpetuate their suffering.


 
sweet p Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:52:08 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>I still don't see the relationship between sexual assault and bullying people.

Being taken advantage of.
I looked like I couldn't defend myself, perhaps? Or that I wouldn't do anything about it?

How is that my fault?


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:52:08 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>Sweet P, you know you can always call on me and several other plonkers to put the hurt on anyone who does something like that too you.
>
>
>That goes for any of you plinkers.

*puts on his red cape with a big golden C on it*

Agreed.

By the way P, I just clicked to see your picture in full size, and if you don't mind me saying, you're one of the most attractive women I've seen today. Kudos.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:53:14 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Yes, they should complain, because it's something that no one should have to put up with.

My point exactly, so do something about it.

>No one has the "right" to perpetuate their suffering.

Again, it has nothing to do with having the right or not, it's being able to.


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:54:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>I don't believe in self-defense courses. Without wanting to sound like a sexist pig, I'm willing to go up against most girls my age, or older ones who've taken a self-defense course, even if they're prepared for it.

Agreed for the most part. An afternoon or even a whole weekend isn't going to help a whole lot and sometimes people get over confident... still knowing something is better than knowing nothing.

I've been training full contact karate for 4 years and I still don't go walking down dark alleys at night. I don't even trust that I could do more than buy myself a few extra seconds to get away and maybe discourage pursuit. (That doesn't mean I wouldn't be interested in changing your perception with a friendly sparring match if I ever get across that ocean ;) )

Life isn't fair. But still a bully has no more right than any other attacker.

That said. I've made my point several times over now and I have a final to study for...


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:54:50 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:
>Being taken advantage of.

The difference is that in just about all cases you can't defend yourself from sexual assault.

>How is that my fault?

That was sexual assault, which isn't your fault, as I said before. If it was some other girl standing there, it would have been her.


 
breeze Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:55:39 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
> What kept me from snapping?

I think living through those “social stratification” type of issues in school is something that everybody goes through. Some people are more popular than the other, some learn how to cope with it and grow up, others don’t and find different outlets for the anger – drugs, suicide, violence, etc.. I think bullies are the result of people trying to cope with same issues. If you're not popular but big enough and have guts, you become "bully", if not, you become a "loser". I think a lot in those situations depends on family situation, support you get there, and your upbringing. The reason why you didn’t go there and started shooting everybody you hated is because maybe your situation was different, the values you grew up with, your position within the family. You weren’t happy at school, but you got the emotional support somewhere else. Those kids were just unfortunate and didn’t have or know any other way to cope with it other than violence.

I studied in a private girls' high school, which had pretty diverse student body so we never had the type of stratification you usually get in schools. But even though, I never had issues about it at school, I hated the neighborhood kids who made experience that. I didn’t know how to speak local language, Uzbek; I partially inherited my mom’s Eastern European look, which made me stand out from the Middle Eastern and Asian majority. All that in combination with my parents’ liberal values they were promoting and growing nationalism made me an outcast for the kids in the conservative neighborhood we were living in. So pretty often local kinds would throw stones at me, screaming something in local language and giving me a nickname - “Russian” (derogatory expression in the country that was under Russian rule for 70 years), and I never had friends I could play with around the house.

Maybe, if I’d be radical Islamist (as some countries in the area) I think I’d be ready to announce my personal jihad against them and stuff myself with dynamite and blow myself up next to them. Instead, I became fluent in Uzbek, or rather I should say I gathered extensive offensive expressions vocabulary, which often proved to be very handy. I got my big brother to be my “heavy artillery” and bodyguard in my fights. And I just stayed in, reading, listening to music, etc., instead of trying to be part of that group.

Later, as Jenn said you learn not to care, and I think those kids who were bulling me stopped doing all that. Maybe they became bored after a while, or maybe they just grew up. I’ll never know I guess.


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:56:34 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:

>Mmhm.
>I got him good.
>Half punch, half back hand to the face - cos it was a reflex. If I had any time to think about it, it would have been a full punch. I made a scene and told him off infront of everyone on the subway. Very uncharacteristic of me, but it sure scared the crap out of..the both of us.

Thanks... that made me smile. (right... I'm going now)


 
addi Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:58:23 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sad part of human nature. The different have always been picked on and teased. Kids do it openly; adults do it more subtley, behind the backs of those they belittle with like minded friends.

If you stand out from the majority you find a smaller subculture group to associate with (jocks, freaks, punks, bible thumpers, blacks, etc...)There are several subcultures within a typical school community. If you find a few like minded people to connect to it helps get you through the mud slinging from the majority (or herd mentality, as Wolffie says).
The saddest ones to me were/are the social misfits, that don't have the social skills to fit into any group. They have to lone it, and I can see a lot of repressed anger building up in them.
One of the big differences i see today from just a few decades ago is that once things reached a boiling point they were settled with verbal putdowns and/or fist fights. I know that still goes on, but now we have to also deal with the use of guns as a way to settle conflicts (a semi automatic makes a much more powerful statement than a fist does).
I think if you have a good support structure to fall back on then you can suffer through and generally survive unscathed through the sometimes tramatic school shit thrown your way. It's the social outcasts that have no guidance, love, and support from parents and family that i think are most susceptible to lashing out in violence.

*when i think back on the "different" kids I knew from school I now realize many of them were really the coolest, most individual, intelligent, and creative ones in school.



 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 16:58:57 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  jennemmer said:
>Agreed for the most part. An afternoon or even a whole weekend isn't going to help a whole lot and sometimes people get over confident... still knowing something is better than knowing nothing.

I was saw a documentary about something like this. It was about a group of businessmen who went on a course for a week to learn how to handle a kidnapping situation. It included self-defense tactics and things like that.

What they didn't know was that the final part of the course was an "actual" kidnapping. None of them did anything they had learned, and it was only like a day after they had taken the whole course. They just panicked.

>I've been training full contact karate for 4 years

Well there's a relatively big chance you could kick my ass then probably. But I was aiming at those classes that last for like a day/week/month instead of years of actual training.


 
sweet p Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:02:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Sweet P said:
>>Being taken advantage of.
>
>The difference is that in just about all cases you can't defend yourself from sexual assault.

How are you supposed to defend yourself from being made fun of? Kicking, doing the same back, or changing, don't seem acceptable either. If you ignore them, they continue anyway.

>That was sexual assault, which isn't your fault, as I said before. If it was some other girl standing there, it would have been her.

Yes, I understand that. But I also think no matter what, there will always be someone to make fun of. It is human nature to want to be like someone who you think is better than you and to look down on someone who you think is worse. If it isn't nerd #1, people are making fun of nerd #2. And you could say the same - if that kid wasn't there, there'd just be some other kid to make fun of.


I can't say that I haven't made fun of other people - infact, I sometimes quite enjoy making fun of things and people. But I just still don't understand what you meant by it being their fault. I don't think it's their fault.


 
sweet p Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:06:28 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>meshuggah said:
>>Sweet P, you know you can always call on me and several other plonkers to put the hurt on anyone who does something like that too you.
>>
>>
>>That goes for any of you plinkers.
>
>*puts on his red cape with a big golden C on it*
>
>Agreed.
>
>By the way P, I just clicked to see your picture in full size, and if you don't mind me saying, you're one of the most attractive women I've seen today. Kudos.

Thanks Plonkers. That is nice.
And thank you Chris - unless you haven't seen any other women today.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:09:17 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:
>How are you supposed to defend yourself from being made fun of? Kicking, doing the same back, or changing, don't seem acceptable either. If you ignore them, they continue anyway.

Changing isn't an option, because that's not the point and that's not what the bullying originates from. It just tells the bullies that they're doing a good job.

People tried it with me when I was a kid too. The first time I beat the crap out of the guy who tried when I was 10 years old or something. There have been a few physical incidents since then, but overall they're rather limited.

Doing the same back is in fact what I'd see as the most effective thing. If somebody yells at you, you yell back twice as hard and they're startled.

Ignoring them is also an option, but I don't believe most people can pull that one off. Ignoring is not solely just not talking to the person, it consists of actually looking like you *really* do not care about the "opinion" of the bully.

>But I also think no matter what, there will always be someone to make fun of.

Ofcourse, it always goes a step up the ladder. Once the bullied kid puts an end to it, the next in line gets it.

>I can't say that I haven't made fun of other people - infact, I sometimes quite enjoy making fun of things and people.

Same here. Although I can't say that I've ever really intentionally hurt people.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:10:30 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sweet P said:
>unless you haven't seen any other women today.

The day that happens I'll probably be found lying dead in my room.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:15:25 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>I know that still goes on, but now we have to also deal with the use of guns as a way to settle conflicts (a semi automatic makes a much more powerful statement than a fist does).

There are weapons in (some) schools here as well, but your ass is grass if they'd catch you with one.

And, walking on thin ice here, but 90% of the time when it does happens it's usually some retarded "nigga" who's surprised he isn't getting any "rezpect". Bull-shit, home dawg.

>I think if you have a good support structure to fall back on then you can suffer through and generally survive unscathed through the sometimes tramatic school shit thrown your way.

Hmm yeah perhaps. Most kid's parents go tell the teachers or whatever, I once told my mom somebody had made fun of me, and she told me to put the guy to the floor the next time it happened. It worked.

>*when i think back on the "different" kids I knew from school I now realize many of them were really the coolest, most individual, intelligent, and creative ones in school.

That applies to a lot of the leader figures in the popular groups as well, contrary to popular belief.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:20:26 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I blame that goddamned hip hop. Keep that shit out of europe, now so many wiggers there thinks theyre black urban americans.

Respect your cultural heritage, you fools.


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:21:09 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>I blame that goddamned hip hop. Keep that shit out of europe, now so many wiggers there thinks theyre black urban americans.
>
>Respect your cultural heritage, you fools.

Agreed. Racism exists for a reason.


 
kurohyou Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:27:28 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>Well, without wanting to offend you or anything, I was wondering if the fact that you have diffirent ethnical backgrounds has left you a bit insecure as to where your roots are, and wether it has created some sort of identity crisis, which as a result has made you rather patriotic (which is not necessarily a bad thing either) since you need to belong to some group/nation, somehow creating a feeling that you need to overdo it a little to make sure people see you as a "real" american.
>
>I'm asking because I've noticed it on a few occassions that you're pretty big on the stars and stripes, national colours, stuff like that.

Insecure. Occasionaly. Idenity Crisis. Occasionsally. Overcompensating. Sure. But they are not a result of my mixed ethnic background. I've always seen my mixed background as being a benefit, not a hinderance. I have had an opportunity to interact with two cultures equally, which I would not have had an opportunity to do had I not been who I am.

I don't know that I've "overdone" it on the patriotic side of things in an attempt to make people see me a certian way. I will spar with Addi as quickly as I will Hif on different topics, and that has little to do with the amount of patritism I do or do not display.

All life is in a constant state of flux. Some days I feel very introspective and balanced, some days I feel very aggitated and off center. It all depends and it is all different.

The long and short of it is that we are all humans. We are all in this together regardless of what flag flys over our house, or what side of whichever ocean we are on. In the end we all share common roots.

For what its worth...


 
kurohyou Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:32:15 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>So what you're saying is that in order to be "popular", you have to think, dress, whatever, the same way as some unwritten rule says?
>
To be part of any social group, you have to do a certain amount of abiding by the groups unwritten, or written rules. That is the way that groups work.

Generally, when you see the "popular" kids, you will see that they all dress the same, hang out in the same places and share the same interests. Those are the things that unite them as a group. If these things are missing then there is little idenity to the group other than the fact that all your lockers are in the same place.

"Popular" kids are not "popular" because they all decided in a collective voice to stand up and not allow themselves to be bullied.

For what its worth...


 
FN Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:37:47 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
>Generally, when you see the "popular" kids, you will see that they all dress the same, hang out in the same places and share the same interests.

Ofcourse you have the same interests as the people you hang out with, otherwise you wouldn't be spending any time with them, same goes for the places you visit. As far as clothes go, the groups of friends I have around me all dress very differently, without adhering to any "style" at all actually. Some of them dress like a skater, some more "clubby",... So clothing isn't a defining factor in group forming when talking about schoolgroups.

This being the case for all groups, it doesn't explain the fact that one group is more popular than another one. The popular people usually aren't the majority.

>"Popular" kids are not "popular" because they all decided in a collective voice to stand up and not allow themselves to be bullied.

Usually they're popular because other, non-popular people look up to them, because they are popular.


 
kurohyou Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:40:02 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>I don't see what's holding anybody back to speak up when they're getting picked on. What do they have to lose anyway.

With regards to a school environment, the options for the weak and bullied are few.

They include:

Verbally standing up for yourself, which more often than not will lead to more teasing.

Physically standing up for yourself, which will lead to administrative problems as well as physical harm to yourself or the ones who catch your rage.

And going to the Administrators: which will get you a barrage of chants which will focus around being a taddle-tail, etc.

In a social environment such as a school, there is a lot to lose by standing up for yourself, and the method by which you stand up for yourself will bring consequences.


>It's my opinion that the strong have an obligation to defend the weak ones.
>
>I disagree.

Then what is the point of being strong? To benefit one's self and let everyone else fend for themselves? This is where the idea of teamwork and unity has been lost. And it bugs me to no end. The idea that the strong don't need to protect the weak. The idea that every man for himself.

I'm heated...must stop...

Be back in a bit to continue.

For what its worth...



 
addi Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:47:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>That applies to a lot of the leader figures in the popular groups as well, contrary to popular belief.

Never meant to imply there weren't good people in the popular group. I was very popular in high school and my college, and I came out pretty well, thank you : )
(I know..subject to opinion...some think I'm crazy)
My point was that a lot of the percieved "losers" by the popular kids turned out to be anything but.


 
kurohyou Posted: Wed Apr 20 17:57:07 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Sad part of human nature. The different have always been picked on and teased. Kids do it openly; adults do it more subtley, behind the backs of those they belittle with like minded friends.
>
>If you stand out from the majority you find a smaller subculture group to associate with (jocks, freaks, punks, bible thumpers, blacks, etc...)There are several subcultures within a typical school community. If you find a few like minded people to connect to it helps get you through the mud slinging from the majority (or herd mentality, as Wolffie says).
>The saddest ones to me were/are the social misfits, that don't have the social skills to fit into any group. They have to lone it, and I can see a lot of repressed anger building up in them.
>One of the big differences i see today from just a few decades ago is that once things reached a boiling point they were settled with verbal putdowns and/or fist fights. I know that still goes on, but now we have to also deal with the use of guns as a way to settle conflicts (a semi automatic makes a much more powerful statement than a fist does).
>I think if you have a good support structure to fall back on then you can suffer through and generally survive unscathed through the sometimes tramatic school shit thrown your way. It's the social outcasts that have no guidance, love, and support from parents and family that i think are most susceptible to lashing out in violence.
>
>*when i think back on the "different" kids I knew from school I now realize many of them were really the coolest, most individual, intelligent, and creative ones in school.
>

Just re-read this and I agree. You said it better than I could have



 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 20 18:09:15 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>My point was that a lot of the percieved "losers" by the popular kids turned out to be anything but.
>
My point exactly about the nerds and losers becoming managers and ceo's.
Bill Gates comes to mind, but if you check out most of the lawyers and CPA's, you will find and astonishing amount of former nerds. And if you follow them around for a day you will find an astonishing amount of former bullies pumping their gas and bagging their groceries, or pumping out their septic tanks*
*oversimplification for sure, but you get my point.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 20 18:11:23 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Who's fault ?

http://www.michellemalkin.com/


 
Silentmind Posted: Wed Apr 20 20:37:01 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  With what hif said above, I'll actually agree with. Holy god, I'm agreeing with hif. But its true. The so called "nerds" are the ones that generally go on and become a part of the upper echelon of society. Doctors, lawyers, ect. The bullies, the ones that found more time to make someone's life a living hell instead of studying, usually becomes the person that pumps the gas. Not always, but often. The sad thing is {this may have been mentioned, but I didn't ahve time to read hte whole topic} that when the people bully another person, we might lose that bullied person who could have become a productive member of society. But alas, some are pushed so far as to break. All because of the petty actions of another.


 
libra Posted: Wed Apr 20 21:00:45 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  did any of the rest of you have bomb/shooting threats on 4/20 at your school throughout the years after columbine?

At my high school, we had it happen often.


 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Apr 20 21:42:34 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The 2 years after Columbine we did. We had emergency drills on this day.
I've been staying out of this thread on purpose. Something about this, whenever we talk about it, brings back to a dark place, so now I watch the rest of Alias. 2 Mr. Sloane's!


 
beetlebum Posted: Thu Apr 21 03:42:44 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>did any of the rest of you have bomb/shooting threats on 4/20 at your school throughout the years after columbine?
>
>At my high school, we had it happen often.

Us, too. But our school also had the de-seg program which kept tensions running high. I always looked at the threat as a way to get our of 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th hour, as anyone who was serious enough about blowing up a building and killing everyone would not call to warn the school administration.


 
beetlebum Posted: Thu Apr 21 04:14:47 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>addi said:
>>My point was that a lot of the percieved "losers" by the popular kids turned out to be anything but.
>>
>My point exactly about the nerds and losers becoming managers and ceo's.
>Bill Gates comes to mind, but if you check out most of the lawyers and CPA's, you will find and astonishing amount of former nerds. And if you follow them around for a day you will find an astonishing amount of former bullies pumping their gas and bagging their groceries, or pumping out their septic tanks*
>*oversimplification for sure, but you get my point.

Going to have to go with major oversimplification, Hif. :o) Many of the so-called popular students at my high school have officially received offers from their respective firms or are in the process of their residency, or they're a little shit like myself who is still mucking about in grad school. Either way, they are all doing very well for themselves. I ran into three of the kids in my class who weren't popular (by the stereotypical standard definition), and they were all working at Target for a living. (Not that that isn't an admirable job, but being a stocker isn't what I'd define as stereotypical mad success.)

However, I know just as many kids who didn't go to the parties every weekend during high school who are now doing just fine and are very successful.

To be sure, there were definitely a few popular kids who suffered the traumatization of leaving high school and finding that they aren't at all that cool, but those numbers were probably similar to those who actually went on and sought success.

I don't think that those kids who are bullied are at fault for the bullying, but they do let it happen to some degree by not fighting back. Bullying exists everywhere, not just high school. I feel bad for anyone who has ever been bullied, because it sounds degrading and horrifying. Bullies are usually weak and insecure, and they just started picking on the other weak and insecure before it could happen to them. The only comforting thing I could think of to say to those who were bullied openly in high school is thus:

How did bullies get linked with the concept of "popular"? I was in the popular group in high school in the sense that I went to all of the parties and I knew those people that others perceived as popular, but anyone who has been in the stereotypical American high school popular group knows, after a few years and upon reflection, that many of the popular kids were so fucking insecure I am amazed at how many of them didn't off themselves. They probably didn't have time to because the girls were probably too busy buying the latest Gucci purse or the boys were too busy trying to prove their physical might on the soccer field (or their sexual prowess off the field. grin). If you look at any popular group, there are three or four who lead- and you know what? THOSE are the kids who DON'T give a crap about what other people think, and they are then strapped with a bunch of tool followers. These are the kids who are friendly with everyone and simply do their own thing. So, anyone who was bullied in jr. high (the worst time ever! I dressed like a lumberjack due to the flanner shirt invasion of the early 1990s. Oh, sadness!) or high school hopefully now realizes that at least they didn't choose to be bullied, unlike some other people that had NO self-confidence and so they sold their soul and dignity to be on the exclusive party list the coming weekend. (Granted, there are always the few who don't care and end up on the list anyway because if everyone cared, popularity could not sustain itself.)

Also, friendships in the popular group are rarely genuine. Talk about a living hell for those kids; to be honest, I don't think people want to talk about how much bullying and bitchiness exists in the popular group because that would mean that they couldn't be made scapegoats. To some degree the bullying in this faction is more severe, because no one can admit to it because that would make them openly insecure!

Luckily, I was pretty unaware all throughout high school, so I did my thing and came out 99.9% unscathed because I didn't really care about who did what. I attribute this to social retardation and a good sense of humor. But I can still remember the number of girls who came to me crying about who said what when last weekend and how their lives were ruined, and while I was listening, I'd silently laugh because that's what happens when you make friends with other social climbers. (At least for girls, anyway.)

Hmmmm. I know this has been rambling, but with any master/slave scenario, a master can't be master without willing slaves. And in high school, it wouldn't have been that hard to rebel. I don't want this to sound like I don't appreciate the little guy who has been fucked over by the high school social system, but if he were really doing his own thing instead of worrying about the popular kids, he'd be just fine. Maybe if they had known how hellish maintaining popularity is, they would've recognized that they weren't the only victim. High school is just a cruddy time for the lot of insecure people who end up there. Ridicule at school wouldn't amount to much if he were pursuing what he really loved, whatever that may be.

Finally, like maybe Addi said (?), those who are bullied and then lash out with guns or planned massacres usually didn't have the support at home that they needed and fell into a severe and debilitating victim mentality. I refuse to fault anyone but those that pulled the trigger because they, too, were awfully self-absorbed.

*steps off of soapbox sheepishly*




 
Mark Posted: Thu Apr 21 04:33:47 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Wolffie said:
>>But since there are a lot of different groups these days i'll give you an example. A metal guy will never be popular with a group of gangsta rappers.
>
>I've never really had problems with anybody, and I'm not in any "group" as far as music style goes.

Ok, I simplified here, had hoped you would get my point. This wasn't about music only, it was also about all those other aspects... anyway, your answer did make me think about something.

I myself find myself not in a group. Even my friends are quite different than I am. As we are all true individuals we all have different interests and appearances. What we do have is respect. Somehow certain things in life brought us together and although we are different a friendship evolved.

>>I mean, what would give anyone a reason to pick on somebody else?
>
>Because they can. And they can because they're allowed to.

hehe... Only because I couldn't handle 10+ against 1 situations. They needed a large group, only then they could and was I forced to let them.

>>that when those who picked on me met me when we where both alone they themselves look quite afraid. That is the weakness of the herd.
>
>You might notice that most bullying is done not by the leaders of a group, but by those who are afraid of being picked on themselves.

Like I said... the herd. Wasn't talking about no shepherd. The latter would be afraid I might take over :p


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Apr 21 06:53:07 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>addi said:
>>>My point was that a lot of the percieved "losers" by the popular kids turned out to be anything but.
>>>
>>My point exactly about the nerds and losers becoming managers and ceo's.
>>Bill Gates comes to mind, but if you check out most of the lawyers and CPA's, you will find and astonishing amount of former nerds. And if you follow them around for a day you will find an astonishing amount of former bullies pumping their gas and bagging their groceries, or pumping out their septic tanks*
>>*oversimplification for sure, but you get my point.
>
>Going to have to go with major oversimplification, Hif. :o) Many of the so-called popular students at my high school have officially received offers from their respective firms or are in the process of their residency, or they're a little shit like myself who is still mucking about in grad school. Either way, they are all doing very well for themselves. I ran into three of the kids in my class who weren't popular (by the stereotypical standard definition), and they were all working at Target for a living. (Not that that isn't an admirable job, but being a stocker isn't what I'd define as stereotypical mad success.)
>
You misunderstood me, I never equated popular with bully. More often than not, the really popular kids go on to successful or semi-successful lives. I was merely talking about the bullies and how they tend to be losers in life.
>
>Finally, like maybe Addi said (?), those who are bullied and then lash out with guns or planned massacres usually didn't have the support at home that they needed and fell into a severe and debilitating victim mentality. I refuse to fault anyone but those that pulled the trigger because they, too, were awfully self-absorbed.
>
I think the Columbine shooters were weak and that's why they broke.
It's eerie to me that they have achieved a kind of cult status among the young today.
As far as I'm concerned they deserve no respect from me or anyone who didn't know them. They died as murderers and cowards.
>
>*steps off of soapbox sheepishly*
>
Heh heh heh heh
She said sheepishly !
heh heh


 
misszero Posted: Thu Apr 21 09:02:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Things have a way of changing in life and the ones who were weak as children might very well be powerful as adults, and the bullies and assholes quite often end up as subordinates to their former weak targets.



The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last



 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 21 11:55:47 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:
>If you look at any popular group, there are three or four who lead- and you know what? THOSE are the kids who DON'T give a crap about what other people think, and they are then strapped with a bunch of tool followers. These are the kids who are friendly with everyone and simply do their own thing.

I agree with your whole post up to this point. Saying that compared to the non-popular group, more people of the popular group end up living less achieving lives is just plain bullshit. The popular people, especially those who actually do not give a crap about what others think, usually are very social people, and if that doesn't count for something in life, I don't know what does.

As a matter of fact, my group of friends throughout highschool was pretty much how you described it. 4-5 of us who just did our own stuff and lived our lives without too much hassle, and the inevitable number of people running after our asses every-fucking-where we went trying to get us to laugh or trying to get a pat on the back. Extremely irritating. And like you said, those are the ones who do the damage. They constantly seek confirmation and acceptance from the guys on top if you will, and they do this by putting those "below" them down, making fun of everybody they see and what not.

By the way, all the "popular" guys are now in university, with a few exceptions here and there. Relatively speaking, based on my experience, I think the number of those who went to get a higher education is actually higher in the popular than the non-popular group.

>I don't think people want to talk about how much bullying and bitchiness exists in the popular group because that would mean that they couldn't be made scapegoats.

Hmm well, if there's one thing we did a lot it was bitching at eachother lol. The difference is though that some people take offence and feel "bullied", other people see through it and have a sense of humour about it and do the same, without caring, or without turning paranoid and thinking the whole world is out to get them.

I think that the ones who get bullied think a bit too much of themselves if they actually think that the "bullies" care about who they're hurting.

>I know this has been rambling, but with any master/slave scenario, a master can't be master without willing slaves.

I agree.

>I don't want this to sound like I don't appreciate the little guy who has been fucked over by the high school social system, but if he were really doing his own thing instead of worrying about the popular kids, he'd be just fine.

I agree.

>*steps off of soapbox sheepishly*

You did very well. Get on it more often.


 
FN Posted: Thu Apr 21 11:59:11 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>I think the Columbine shooters were weak and that's why they broke.
>It's eerie to me that they have achieved a kind of cult status among the young today.
>As far as I'm concerned they deserve no respect from me or anyone who didn't know them. They died as murderers and cowards.

Are you ready for this? *drumrolls*

I agree with you hif.

The reason they achieved that kind of status is probably because a lot of people out there feel they're bearing the world on their shoulders and that everybody is after them, so to them those columbine kids were martyrs who showed the world that the underdog can strike back too.

Losers unite, I guess.


 



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