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A very good article about the war in Iraq
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Aug 27 09:16:10 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  A long but worthwile read:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/995phqjw.asp?pg=1




 
Posted: Sat Aug 27 10:23:15 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  haven't read it yet (gotta go to work), but the name struck me as familiar, and sure as shit, it's the author that I caught on The Daily Show just the other day.

For what it's worth, I didn't much care for what he had to say then, but I'll give the article a spin when I get home.

Here's the Daily Show clip: http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002323.html#002323


 
Mesh Posted: Sat Aug 27 10:50:23 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  "A War to Be Proud Of"


No such thing. Some are just less heinous than others.



 
addi Posted: Sat Aug 27 11:17:08 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Meshuggah said:
>"A War to Be Proud Of"
>
>
>No such thing. Some are just less heinous than others.

Well put, mesh.


*I'll read the article later. Right now there's a jungle out in my back yard screaming for me to mow it. I knew it was time when I went back to my shed and spotted a leopard behind my bamboo trees.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Aug 27 13:16:21 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Meshuggah said:
>"A War to Be Proud Of"
>
>
>No such thing. Some are just less heinous than others.
>
Absolutely true


 
Mesh Posted: Sat Aug 27 14:25:40 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sorry, I've tried reading it but I keep losing focus and getting distracted. Later on tonight when I'm (hopefully) more tired and relaxed I'll sit down and give it a good read.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Aug 27 15:11:59 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Meshuggah said:
>Sorry, I've tried reading it but I keep losing focus and getting distracted. Later on tonight when I'm (hopefully) more tired and relaxed I'll sit down and give it a good read.
>
Try some ritalin
LOL


 
zander83 Posted: Sat Aug 27 16:38:48 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I do appreciate that article for one thing... it justly criticizes those who would argue, wrongly, that "if we were nice to them they'de be nice to us" (or similar nonsense...) Now originally I was indifferent to the war mainly because, on the one hand hey saddams gone yay, while on the other hand is Iraq more of a "keystone" then say iran, pakistan, or others... Today, still fairly indifferent to the reasons for going to war since neither side has really presented a case for one or the other

The real issue I think needs that needs to be dealt with is the post-war planning... I have some faith that these guys did there job correctly and did to some extent plan the war/post-war according to a set of assumption. Those assumptions turned out to be wrong not necessarily by there fault so I wouldn't say: "its rumsfield fault so and so died...etc." However, I work for an insurance company as an actuary, everyday we make assumptions about how future claims are going to turn out, how interest rates are going to proceed etc. You know what happens if we fuck up the assumptions... we get fired(or demoted depends on how bad we fuck up)... Now maybe forgiveness is divine, or however the proverb goes, but lets keep perspective, if you screw up you should be held accountable... i think thats the main problem most people have with the "administration"(how love how people say this... the administration will get you... :))is it seems no one is punished for screwing up and since no is gone, no new ideas come up... just the same ideas that im not convinced worked... clearly theres nothing wrong with re-valuating your position midway through and making adjustments that need to be made...


 
DanSRose Posted: Sat Aug 27 17:44:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The war itself went fine. Near flawless. What was it? Febuary/March of '03 to that May/June?

It's the post-war rebuilding that they failed on all levels on. Iraq's constitution looks like it's going to be an Islamic theocracy, and before you (and you all know who you are!) start with that "will of the people" crap, know that a democracy isn't a simple "will of the people". It is majority rule with protected minority rights.
In a country like Iraq, with a female to male ratio of 6:4 (some estimates have it lower), having fundamentalist Islamic judges, writ, and law making women a powerless minority is not a democracy. Democracy is why we liberated the nation from an autocrat.


 
addi Posted: Sat Aug 27 18:28:55 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  zander83 said:
>I do appreciate that article for one thing... it justly criticizes those who would argue, wrongly, that "if we were nice to them they'de be nice to us" (or similar nonsense...)

Anyone that says we should be nice to the teorrists behind the 9/11 attack is a moron. Anyone that thinks pissing off the entire muslim world, turning them against us, and creating more terrorists is a good plan is also a moron. We never had the support of the extremist fanatics, but they were a relatively small group. We did have the sympathy and support the world and of a lot of muslims after the attacks in New York, and they gave us support for our attack of Afghanistan (even if it wasn't vocal and public). We turned the tide against us though with the invasion of Iraq. Muslims didn't view it as an attack on al-queda and Osama, they see it as an offensive move to gain control of an oil rich Arab nation and have political influence in a middle east nation.
In the global political arena it was a bonehead move, and took our eyes off the prize.
Now we have a fucked up mess in Iraq, and we're losing control of Afghanistan as well (warlords control many sections of the country).


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Aug 27 18:49:50 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  From Jonah Goldberg at the National Review online:

A New Day Has Dawned
Reading and shaping opinions — here and over there.



"Insanity,” goes a popular old saw attributed to both Albert Einstein and Ben Franklin (so it must be right), “is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

As a corollary, it seems to me that saying the same thing over and over again, regardless of the results, should be a similar kind of crazy.

For the past few years, we’ve been told (by John Kerry, Howard Dean, and various and sundry editorialists) that George W. Bush has, by fighting the “wrong war, in the wrong place, at the wrong time,” “created more terrorists” and “isolated America” by inflaming passions in the Middle East.

Cindy Sheehan has amplified this perspective, calling President Bush, among other things, an “evil maniac” and the world’s “biggest terrorist.” In the process, she’s become a hero to those who see pathos in her protest and a sham to those who see bathos in her stunts.

But as Sheehan’s rhetoric exceeds even the heat of the Crawford sun, and as Democrats openly ponder whether she’s the visionary who will lead them out of the wilderness, facts on the ground are changing. If the war has created more terrorists and made the world hate us more, why exactly has Muslim and Arab opinion of the United States improved?

According to the massive Pew Global Attitudes Survey, views of the United States have been improving. We’re not exactly back to the days when Kuwaiti babies were being named George Bush, but the trends are in our favor. The share of people with a favorable view of America went up in Indonesia by some 23 points, in Lebanon by 15 points, and in Jordan by 16 points. Trends in France, Germany, Russia, and India have been moving our way, too.

But the news gets even better. Support for terrorism and Osama bin Laden has been plummeting across the Arab and Muslim world (save for in Jordan, where the large Palestinian population plays a big role). Support for democracy, meanwhile, has improved. According to Pew, “nearly three-quarters of Moroccans and roughly half of those in Pakistan, Turkey and Indonesia see Islamic extremism as a threat to their countries.” The share of those supporting suicide bombings and the targeting of civilians has fallen by more than one-third in Lebanon — where democracy is on the move, by the way — and by 16 and 27 points in Pakistan and Morocco, respectively. Similar declines in support for Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda, and the like have been recorded.

No doubt these numbers are imperfect and hardly speak to a single cause. In Indonesia, our generous tsunami relief helped a great deal. In Lebanon, terrorism isn’t just something that happens to Israelis and Americans — it’s something that could snuff out the rebirth of democracy there (it’s also a reminder of the civil war few wish to return to). And across the Arab world, opinions have been shifted by images of Iraqi “insurgents” slaughtering innocent men, women and children while Americans are trying to build schools and hospitals.

But here in the United States opinions remain fixed. Opponents of the war are convinced that every day we are in Iraq we are making things worse for America and the world. One could certainly argue that we’re making things worse for America, in that the war has not gone as well as many of its supporters had hoped or expected. But even if you could prove that the war was a mistake in every way, to say that it never should have happened is not a good argument for abandoning the project. If a man is stabbed in the chest, you don’t cure him by simply yanking the knife out. In other words, the old talking points on both sides do not matter anymore.

There is an important lesson for President Bush in all this. The message of his recent speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars was that we need to “stay the course.” That has been his talking point for a very long time. And, in fairness, if your policy is to stay the course, then saying “stay the course” has a certain irrefutable logic to it. But on any long journey, even if the course remains the same the terrain may change.

Much has changed in Iraq. The Iraqi army is progressing, even as bombers target recruiting stations. The marshlands have been restored. There’s an enormous car-buying boom in Iraq, which is surely a sign of confidence. Morale — to the consternation of our domestic media — is still very high among American regular troops (less so among National Guardsmen). And, let’s not forget, the messy process of constitution writing is unfolding before our very eyes.

For reasons so imponderable that a cottage industry of West Wing Kremlinologists has sprung up, President Bush seems incapable or unwilling to make his case in light of the new realities. One may stay the course, and cross mountains and valleys. Let’s hear less about the destination and more about crossing the mountains and valleys.




 
Zacq Posted: Sat Aug 27 18:54:56 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>"Insanity,” goes a popular old saw attributed to both Albert Einstein and Ben Franklin (so it must be right), “is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

I find it difficult to express how sick I am of people using this definition or whatever of insanity to start an article or point as if no one knew it. That's all I'm saying - it's not creative anymore, don't fucking say it.


 
Zacq Posted: Sat Aug 27 19:04:00 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I think that was the first time Jon Stewart really let his anti-Bush feelings get in the way of letting his guest say what he wanted to say.

And before anyone quotes it, the link with the Jon Stewart clip says:

'Note Hitchen's "answer" to the first question. He tosses in a kitchen-sink-full of examples of Islamic extremism that have little to do with our current predicament. He failed to note that prior to the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Zarqawi operated out of Northern Iraq, where Saddam had no control.'

We weren't just attacking Hussein (though it was sometimes made to seem that way). We were attacking the insurgents within Iraq. Northern Iraq apparently did need to be dealth with.


 
addi Posted: Sat Aug 27 22:19:44 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Taken from the very same Pew Global Attitudes Survey that Mr. Goldberg uses to back his opinions:

"Anti-Americanism in Europe, the Middle East and Asia, which surged as a result of the U.S. war in Iraq, shows modest signs of abating. But the United States remains broadly disliked in most countries surveyed, and the opinion of the American people is not as positive as it once was. The magnitude of America's image problem is such that even popular U.S. policies have done little to repair it. President George W. Bush's calls for greater democracy in the Middle East and U.S. aid for tsunami victims in Asia have been well-received in many countries, but only in Indonesia, India and Russia has there been significant improvement in overall opinions of the U.S."

"...But progress for America's image in these countries is measured in small steps; solid majorities in all five predominantly Muslim countries surveyed still express unfavorable views of the United States."

"Indeed, opinion of the U.S. continues to be mostly unfavorable among the publics of America's traditional allies, except Great Britain and Canada. Even in those two countries, however, favorable views of the U.S. have slipped over the past two years. Moreover, support for the U.S.-led war on terror has plummeted in Spain and eroded elsewhere in Europe."

"Strikingly, China now has a better image than the U.S. in most of the European nations surveyed."

The man is a fucking moron. Copy and paste articles here in the future from somebody that has an I.Q. above 100, hif.
I'm SO GODDAMN SICK OF CONSERVATIVE BULLSHIT SPIN ON THIS WAR! You guys wouldn't know the truth if it hit you in the fucking face.




*bitchy Addi is back



 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Aug 28 08:26:34 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Taken from the very same Pew Global Attitudes Survey that Mr. Goldberg uses to back his opinions:
>
>"Anti-Americanism in Europe, the Middle East and Asia, which surged as a result of the U.S. war in Iraq, shows modest signs of abating. But the United States remains broadly disliked in most countries surveyed, and the opinion of the American people is not as positive as it once was. The magnitude of America's image problem is such that even popular U.S. policies have done little to repair it. President George W. Bush's calls for greater democracy in the Middle East and U.S. aid for tsunami victims in Asia have been well-received in many countries, but only in Indonesia, India and Russia has there been significant improvement in overall opinions of the U.S."
>
>"...But progress for America's image in these countries is measured in small steps; solid majorities in all five predominantly Muslim countries surveyed still express unfavorable views of the United States."
>
>"Indeed, opinion of the U.S. continues to be mostly unfavorable among the publics of America's traditional allies, except Great Britain and Canada. Even in those two countries, however, favorable views of the U.S. have slipped over the past two years. Moreover, support for the U.S.-led war on terror has plummeted in Spain and eroded elsewhere in Europe."
>
>"Strikingly, China now has a better image than the U.S. in most of the European nations surveyed."
>
>The man is a fucking moron. Copy and paste articles here in the future from somebody that has an I.Q. above 100, hif.
>I'm SO GODDAMN SICK OF CONSERVATIVE BULLSHIT SPIN ON THIS WAR! You guys wouldn't know the truth if it hit you in the fucking face.
>
I look at what you pasted and then re-read the article above and don't see a helluva lot of difference.
He's a glass half full kind of guy and your a bitchy whiny truth is a matter of opinion guy.
>



 
addi Posted: Sun Aug 28 09:11:02 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>He's a glass half full kind of guy and your a bitchy whiny truth is a matter of opinion guy.


I guess the point I was trying to make, in my bitchy whiney way, was that an improvement in the views of America in SOME countries doesn't justify his conclusions.
It's like saying some Arabs used to really hate us, but now they just hate us, and concluding that it's all good now because they don't hate us as much.
When an analysis is done of the perception of Americans by the rest of the world in the '90s, and then compare it to where it's plummeted since then, a logical conclusion to come to is that it's worsened significantly from a global perspective.
There are two different approaches we can make to the world's perception of us. I see one group generally saying screw the rest of the world. We don't need them. I see another group generally doing some introspective questioning of why this is, and thinking about the correctness of our foreign policy that would cause such a drop. They approach it entirely different than the first group. Instead of having this "fuck the rest of the world if they don't like us" mentality, this second group understands that America is not infallible, that the rest of the world didn't lower there perception of us just for the hell of it, and that maybe...just possibly... we have made some major mistakes that need to be addressed. This group also understands that it's in America's best interest in this day and age to keep good relations with the majority of the world's people, and that the cowboy mentality only makes things worse for all of us down the road.

You're probably right with your glass half full analogy. If Mr. Goldberg and I both attended a fallen soldiers funeral due to a road bomb in Bagdad, he would probably comment afterwards that the young boy has now moved on to a far better place...and I would probably comment that it's a tragedy that this boy never got to even reach the prime of his life.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Aug 28 09:44:14 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  According to the massive Pew Global Attitudes Survey, views of the United States have been improving. We’re not exactly back to the days when Kuwaiti babies were being named George Bush, but the trends are in our favor. The share of people with a favorable view of America went up in Indonesia by some 23 points, in Lebanon by 15 points, and in Jordan by 16 points. Trends in France, Germany, Russia, and India have been moving our way, too.
>
Ok, so how is this a bad thing ?
Is it because the numbers are not high enough ?
Isn't the fact that this is a widespread thing and not a fluke something good?
It would appear that you want failure in the Middle East just to validate your ideology.

I seriously doubt that you and Mr. Goldberg would have vastly different points of view concerning a fallen soldier.


 
addi Posted: Sun Aug 28 10:04:20 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  "Strikingly, China now has a better image than the U.S. in most of the European nations surveyed."

Is it better that in some countries we've gone from really sucks to just sucks? Yeah, I'm with you there.

You and Mr. Goldberg look at this with rose colored glass on. I'm viewing this with my naked eye. Call me negative for that if you want to.
I sometimes look at my college football team and female relationships with rose colored glasses on. That can lead to some personal heartache. The consequences of looking at our political policies with rose colored glasss on has much higher consequences for our country and the world.




 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Aug 28 18:53:47 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>"Strikingly, China now has a better image than the U.S. in most of the European nations surveyed."
>
>Is it better that in some countries we've gone from really sucks to just sucks? Yeah, I'm with you there.
>
>You and Mr. Goldberg look at this with rose colored glass on. I'm viewing this with my naked eye. Call me negative for that if you want to.
>I sometimes look at my college football team and female relationships with rose colored glasses on. That can lead to some personal heartache. The consequences of looking at our political policies with rose colored glasss on has much higher consequences for our country and the world.
>
I doubt it.
There is nothing wrong with being optimistic, not the same as what you are describing.
I don't think you see it with the naked eye. You see it through the eyes of the pessimist or naysayer.
You know, kind of bitchy.


 
addi Posted: Sun Aug 28 22:19:50 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  you confuse realism with pessimism. you confuse my disgust with Bush's mishandling of this war with pessimism. In fact you confuse a lot of things.
I am by nature actually an optimistic person. The vibes you may get of my negativism (a more appropriate adjective would be "distain") is confined primarily to Conservative right wing republican idiots and this administration.

Outside of that I'm all sunshine and hugs and : )

*and if referring to me as "bitchy" makes you feel like a bigger man, then you have my blessings to keep calling me that. I understand when you don't have factual support for your position sometimes the only recourse you have is to start calling others names.


 
Zacq Posted: Mon Aug 29 01:19:25 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:

>*bitchy Addi is back


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Aug 29 06:35:31 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>*and if referring to me as "bitchy" makes you feel like a bigger man, then you have my blessings to keep calling me that. I understand when you don't have factual support for your position sometimes the only recourse you have is to start calling others names.
>
The man is a fucking moron. Copy and paste articles here in the future from somebody that has an I.Q. above 100, hif.
I'm SO GODDAMN SICK OF CONSERVATIVE BULLSHIT SPIN ON THIS WAR! You guys wouldn't know the truth if it hit you in the fucking face.


*bitchy Addi is back
>
Yeah right
:-)



 
addi Posted: Mon Aug 29 07:02:35 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  It's true. I admit it. I've lost what small amount of patience I had in my reserves for the constant stupidity spewing forth from the dipwads in the white house.
Every day it's something new. Yesterday, for example, I had to try and swallow Bush's analogy that the process of radifying the constitution in Iraq was similar to the debate our founding fathers had here on our constitution. I gagged (he failed to grasp the minor detail that those delagates who did not sign our constitution didn't go out and start killing the colonists that supported it).
In all other matters on this forum I'm as pleasant and as happy as a lark. When it comes to threads on politics and poorly written posts defending what cannot be defended expect more bitchyness.

*My apologises to my friends here that have to suffer through my political rants.


 



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