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DanSRose Posted: Sun Sep 4 13:59:47 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  It's a sorry shame, everything happening there. From the storm to the deluge, from the lack of preparedness to the lack of response, from the politcking to the looting, and the suffering and the starving.
I want to go down to New Orleans (they've been getting hundreds of volunteers, all being organized by the Red Cross). I think I will go on Wednesday (my birthday- I have to make preparations and let people know where I will be). I donated some money ($50).
I can't watch TV, not the news, not even my beloved Invader ZIM (The Wettening is creeping me out, and Dark Harvest too, but only for the normal organ-y reasons).
This is as bad as it gets. Worse, as I'm seeing/reading, than 9-11:
http://www.guerrillanews.com/headlines/4653/Gone_With_the_Water_Nat_Geo_predicted_disaster_in_2004


 
kurohyou Posted: Sun Sep 4 14:26:06 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>I want to go down to New Orleans (they've been getting hundreds of volunteers, all being organized by the Red Cross). I think I will go on Wednesday (my birthday- I have to make preparations and let people know where I will be).

I too have wanted to go help, but the logistics of my life won't allow it right now. I'm hoping to donate a little money with my next check.

I'll keep you in my thoughts as you go. I think its good that you are going. Stay safe.

For what it's worth...




 
Dancer Posted: Mon Sep 5 00:48:10 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  it is really terrible.. i saw in the news.

Are people still stranded there? i read about 10K victims died or more..is that true?




 
DanSRose Posted: Mon Sep 5 03:43:16 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  People are stranded on rooftops, in the stadium, on the streets. It's too early to confirm a death toll.
The French Quarter went largely undamaged.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Sep 5 08:28:42 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The disaster area is 90,000 square miles. Larger than Great Britian.
The media has been covering mostly New Orleans and Biloxi. There is no telling what they will find when they get to all the smaller towns in the area.



 
DanSRose Posted: Mon Sep 5 10:11:32 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Exactly.
What bothers me is (1) the news helicopters that just do overhead shots of people suffering, but not actually helping; this is bigger than ratings (2) the incompentance and stupidity of the government; the FEMA director was informed Thursday of what the hell was going on in Superdome; they also sent away Walmart, who sent several large truckloads of water and supplies (Walmart just gave it to the Red Cross)


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Sep 5 10:27:17 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I've heard that the reason they are not letting folks like Wal Mart and the Red Cross in yet is because it's not safe for civilians. The idiots are still shooting a people in there.
The fucking anarchists should all be shot where they stand.
I did read that 5 were killed last nite.
Good riddance !
The news helicopters on Fox News were finding survivors and directing the rescuers to their locations.
I really don't think there is that much incompetence involved as much as being overwhelmed by the sheer scope of this disaster.
Most of the incompetence can probably be laid at the feet of the local politicians up to the governor of Louisiana and their bad planning. As I watched this unfold, one of the things that struck me was there are no strong leaders there. From the New Orleans chief of police, to the mayor, to the governor, none of them are what one would call a strong leader. They might be capable administrators, but in this situation, strong leaders are what is needed.

And Kanye West is a dumbass !


 
DanSRose Posted: Mon Sep 5 11:19:34 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  No.
You take the supplies and say thank you. The supplies were in the trucks when they were ordered to leave.
A lot of the looting is not looting. It's stranded people needing food and water. People taking a DVD player or an XBox should be, well, that's obvious. People are desperate.

The governor and mayor of LA and New Orleans requested federal aid before the storm hit and after it and Thursday-ish they showed up. For the last two years, the mayor requested FEMA to reinforce the levees (it's their job to do that). The mayor ordered martial law Tuesday, and the police have acted in accord.

Leader-schmeader; there are specialists that do these things, emergency environmental specialists, water rescue workers, relief hospitals, the list goes on, all positions within the military, government positions, or goverment contractors. The leader-type, whom you are speaking of, is the General who was sent to organize the situation. His power is superceded by FEMA. Another popular leader, Condelezza Rice, saw Spamalot Monday night and went shoeshopping Tuesday.

But let me say this: Where the army, the Guard, FEMA, etc. have been working, they have been doing the work of Titans. They have been doing the impossible. It's the failing after failing that is just not working, on a pure human level.

I'm sorry. I'm getting jumpy, testy, the useless feeling.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Sep 5 13:19:02 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>No.
>You take the supplies and say thank you. The supplies were in the trucks when they were ordered to leave.
>A lot of the looting is not looting. It's stranded people needing food and water. People taking a DVD player or an XBox should be, well, that's obvious. People are desperate.
>
I have yet to one person condemned for stealing food, clothing, or medicine, but the guys that are taking TV's and stereos and bullshit like that are scum.
>
>The governor and mayor of LA and New Orleans requested federal aid before the storm hit and after it and Thursday-ish they showed up. For the last two years, the mayor requested FEMA to reinforce the levees (it's their job to do that). The mayor ordered martial law Tuesday, and the police have acted in accord.
>
It is my understanding that there was no request for federal aid before the storm hit and the one levee that failed was just upgraded.
>
>Leader-schmeader; there are specialists that do these things, emergency environmental specialists, water rescue workers, relief hospitals, the list goes on, all positions within the military, government positions, or goverment contractors. The leader-type, whom you are speaking of, is the General who was sent to organize the situation. His power is superceded by FEMA. Another popular leader, Condelezza Rice, saw Spamalot Monday night and went shoeshopping Tuesday.
>
The fucking chief of police and the fucking mayor are both incompetent as strong leaders. No matter how daunting the task might be, when the people depend on you for leadership, you don't go on TV and bitch and moan about it, you fucking take charge and do what you can.
>
>But let me say this: Where the army, the Guard, FEMA, etc. have been working, they have been doing the work of Titans. They have been doing the impossible. It's the failing after failing that is just not working, on a pure human level.
>
>I'm sorry. I'm getting jumpy, testy, the useless feeling.
>
The Red Cross and civilian volunteers are still not allowed in because of the security risks, they won't be allowed in until it's safe for them to go there.


 
addi Posted: Mon Sep 5 13:23:39 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>The fucking anarchists should all be shot where they stand.
>I did read that 5 were killed last nite.
>Good riddance !

Hif you are clueless...clueless about what the survivors are facing there...and so am I, because neither of us are living in their shoes. Not a defense of a few crazy shooters, but a belief that the vast majority of people looting are looking for basic necessities just to survive another day.

>I really don't think there is that much incompetence involved as much as being overwhelmed by the sheer scope of this disaster.

"If we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" asked former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a Republican.

Republican Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts called the government's response "an embarrassment."

A week after the hurricane it's comforting to know the president is finally grasping the seriousness of the situation.

Finger pointing does not help those in need. There's enough blame to spread everywhere on this one. I just find the slow and ineffective initial response to this disaster inexcusible by those running our government.


 
addi Posted: Mon Sep 5 13:44:32 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>It is my understanding that there was no request for federal aid before the storm hit and the one levee that failed was just upgraded.

In a well detailed letter to President Bush, Governor Kathleen Blanco requested that Bush declare an "expedited state of disaster for the State of Louisiana... beginning on August 28, 2005 and continuing."
It appears there is some confusion over at the White House about when Governor Blanco requested aid and for that matter when she declared a State of Emergency for the State of Louisiana.

According to the WaPo, "As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said." That's rather curious because the letter from Governor Blanco to President Bush clearly states that she declared a State of Emergency on August 26, 2005.


Will Bunch noted that the Times-Picayune had consistently reported over the past several years that the administration had slashed tens of million dollars for hurricane- and flood-control projects, and, in nine articles, had related the cuts explicitly to the unanticipated costs of the Iraq War.

"After 2003, the flow of federal dollars toward [the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA] dropped to a trickle," according to the article. "The Corps never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security – coming at the same time as federal tax cuts – was the reason for the strain."

On June 8, 2004, according to the E&P report, the emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana, Walter Maestri, complained to the Times-Picayune: "It appears that the money [proposed by the Corps of Engineers for SELA] has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

The Corps' project manager, Al Naomi, was quoted at the same time as warning that "the levees are sinking … and if we don't get the money fast enough to raise them, then we can't stay ahead of the settlement. The problem that we have isn't that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have dried up so that we can't raise them."

Members of the Louisiana congressional delegation also repeatedly called on the administration to restore funding to the Corps to strengthen the levees and other coastal protection measures but were repeatedly rebuffed, according to other accounts.

Despite the increased frequency of hurricanes in 2003 and 2004, Bush earlier this year requested only $10.4 million for SELA's hurricane-protection project, a sixth of what local officials had said they needed, according to Newhouse News.

__________________________________

Your "understanding" is in serious need of re-evaluation.




 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Sep 5 15:17:45 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>The fucking anarchists should all be shot where they stand.
>>I did read that 5 were killed last nite.
>>Good riddance !
>
> Hif you are clueless...clueless about what the survivors are facing there...and so am I, because neither of us are living in their shoes. Not a defense of a few crazy shooters, but a belief that the vast majority of people looting are looking for basic necessities just to survive another day.
>
I never said that there was a "vast majority" of any kind concerning the looting going on.
I did say that no one should be condemned for stealing clothes, water, or medicine. That is not looting.
And I still stand by my statement that the looters should be shot where they stand. Right now it's anarchy down there and order must be restored, hell the looters are even shooting at each other.
>>I really don't think there is that much incompetence involved as much as being overwhelmed by the sheer scope of this disaster.
>
>"If we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" asked former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a Republican.
>
>Republican Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts called the government's response "an embarrassment."
>
>A week after the hurricane it's comforting to know the president is finally grasping the seriousness of the situation.
>
Of course it could have been done better, no one disputes that.
>
>Finger pointing does not help those in need. There's enough blame to spread everywhere on this one. I just find the slow and ineffective initial response to this disaster inexcusible by those running our government.
>
Yeah, but haven't you heard ?
Bush doesn't care about black people.


 
mat_j Posted: Mon Sep 5 15:24:56 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  New Orleans has always been one of the most magical places in America, one of the few places there i would trully love to visit. What has happened there is beyond a catastrophe, The following months will show trully show America's Mettle. Godspeed to those thinking of going there and god help those who are there now.


 
beetlebum Posted: Mon Sep 5 16:08:58 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mat_j said:
>New Orleans has always been one of the most magical places in America, one of the few places there i would trully love to visit. What has happened there is beyond a catastrophe, The following months will show trully show America's Mettle. Godspeed to those thinking of going there and god help those who are there now.

Yeah. Couldn't have said it better.


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Sep 5 16:39:18 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mat_j said:
>New Orleans has always been one of the most magical places in America, one of the few places there i would trully love to visit. What has happened there is beyond a catastrophe, The following months will show trully show America's Mettle. Godspeed to those thinking of going there and god help those who are there now.


äÇìÌÀìåÌéÈäÌ amen.


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Sep 5 16:40:19 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Meshuggah said:

> äÇìÌÀìåÌéÈäÌ


Those started out as the hebrew letters for Halləlûyāh.


 
addi Posted: Mon Sep 5 18:25:17 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Yeah, but haven't you heard ?
>Bush doesn't care about black people.

Bush doesn't give a flying fuck about a lot of Americans...unless they're corporate bigwigs.
He goes to a baseball game after the hurricane hits.
He strums a guitar after the hurricane hits.
He goes golfing after the hurricane hits.
He appoints a guy to head FEMA whos previous experience was heading up a stable of Arabian horses, and who is in way over his head in this situation. This guy didn't even know there were 15,000 people stranded in new orleans till he saw it on CNN the other day...truth.
He cuts funds to finish fixing the levys.
He diverts heavy equipment and national guard troops from the Louisiana area to Iraq that were vital to assist in the clean up and restoration of order after the hurricane hit.

To blame every single catastrophy happening there on Bush is not fair. But his large part in the lack of foresight, immediate decisive action, and having genuine empathy for the people living through hell there now is inexcusable. The man is a disgrace.


 
Posted: Mon Sep 5 23:42:25 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002353.html#002353

MSNBC's Keith Olbermann on the situation.

In my opinion, and I don't say this lightly, this is the political commentary of the year. The link has video and a transcript.

Enjoy


 
DanSRose Posted: Tue Sep 6 00:07:04 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Normally, I'm not an Olbermann fan, but while he does crappy interviews, his editorals are almost always on the mark.
Shepard Smith last week a few broadcasts equally as pissed.


 
Zacq Posted: Tue Sep 6 03:18:49 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002351.html

Has anyone EVER heard Bush be able to talk about anything like Clinton does there? As in, simply and elegantly and in a way where he addresses various issues without platitudes and meaningless sayings.


 
DanSRose Posted: Tue Sep 6 04:09:24 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  PREEMPTIVE!

Clinton built up FEMA after Andrew. He also made sure that the wetlands and barrier islands would protect Florida and the Gulf Coast if/when a hurricane hit. To further fund the Iraq War, Bush gutted funding to FEMA and halted almost all research and storm and flooding projects (ie. the 17th Street levee). For years, the mayor, senator, and governor tried to get the Army Corps of Engineers to build/reinforce the areas of impending doom (they have the know-how and equipment) but couldn't get the funding or the federal OK.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 07:03:19 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
The Mayor Who Failed His City
By Ben Johnson
September 6, 2005


IT’S OFFICIAL: THE AMERICAN LEFT NOW BELIEVES GEORGE W. BUSH IS GOD. Bellowing leftists such as Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Cindy Sheehan have blamed Hurricane Katrina – something insurance companies classify as an act of God – on President Bush’s “killing policies” (and, in RFK Jr.’s case, those of Mississippi’s Republican governor, Haley Barbour). Former Clinton aide Sidney Blumenthal also penned an article in The Guardian chalking up the flood to the Bush administration’s having cut one item in the Army Corps of Engineers’ annual budget. (Desperate to build a presidential legacy, even ex post facto, ex-President Bill Clinton has intimated his administration did more to keep New Orleans safe than Bush's.) Meanwhile, DNC Chair Howard Dean weighed in by demeaning Bush’s trip to the disaster area, calling it “just another callous political move crafted by Karl Rove.”

In addition to claiming Bush somehow fed the phantom of “global warming” to rain death upon his own citizens, the Left has alleged “racism” in his handling of this disaster. Jesse Jackson quipped post-Hurricane New Orleans looks like “the hull of a slave ship.” Director Michael Moore played the race card in an open letter to Bush on his website. They found an echo in the “Reverend” Al Sharpton, who told MSNBC’s abysmal Keith Olbermann, “I feel that, if it was in another area, with another economic strata and racial makeup, that President Bush would have run out of Crawford a lot quicker and FEMA would have found its way in a lot sooner.” Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-MD, a member in good standing of the Congressional Black Caucus, played both the race and the God card, thundering:



We cannot allow it to be said that the difference between those who lived and those who died in this great storm and flood of 2005 was nothing more than poverty, age or skin color…To the president of the United States, I simply say that God cannot be pleased with our response.



And they say all the religious nutjobs are on the Right.



The Democrats’ avenging angel has come in the form of Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-NV, who has proposed a 9/11-style commission to probe the feds’ response to Hurricane Katrina. (After all, the original 9/11 Commission proved so exemplary.) Despite these transparent attempts to claw political advantage from the suffering of the downtrodden – after the National Guard forgeries, Plamegate, and conspiratorial ravings about the Federalist Society won them no traction – a Washington Post poll revealed 55 percent of Americans do not blame President Bush for the debacle in the Big Easy.



Perhaps that is because the American people intuit it is not the federal response that should be monitored but that of New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, a Democrat and, coincidentally, a black man.



In accordance with the “City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan” – a blueprint drawn up to deal with emergencies like this one – all “Authority to issue evacuations of elements of the population is vested in the Mayor.” The document specifically states, “The person responsible for recognition of hurricane related preparation needs and for the issuance of an evacuation order is the Mayor of the City of New Orleans.” This outline does not mention any specific federal government’s role in disaster relief, instead carving out roles for state and municipal governments. In fact, as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld noted this holiday weekend, posse commitatus statutes bar federal officers from working as law enforcement officials.



Charged with so heavy a responsibility, Mayor Nagin punted, then passed the buck. The National Hurricane Center called Nagin Saturday night asking him to evacuate New Orleans, and President Bush also begged him to get his people to safety. As mayor, the final decision was Nagin's. He was expected to issue such an order 48 hours before the storm made landfall; however, the storm touched down and the levees gave way less than 48 hours after his proclamation.



Moreover, he is to see that “Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life saving assistance.” Yet some 205 buses, and perhaps a greater number of large transit vehicles, were left stranded in a flooded parking lot. University of New Orleans professor Shirley Laksa had calculated some 125,000 residents do not have private transportation. As a result of Nagin’s inaction, Katrina’s victims are twice as likely to be poor than the average American. These are the people who had no recourse but to wait for the local government to rescue them; these are the people municipal malfeasance and nonfeasance abandoned to an ill-equipped Superdome.



Despite these critical lapses in judgment, Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-LA, pressured her commander-in-chief to withhold all criticism of the local response (President Bush had not made any, justified though it might be), threatening that, if he didn’t, “I might likely have to punch him. Literally.” Although Washington was abuzz when Rep. Dan Burton called Bill Clinton a “scumbag,” no censure has been forthcoming for Landrieu.



The Left has not idled down its criticisms of Bush, blaming him for global warming and poor planning. The facts tell another tale. The infrastructure the Left criticizes Bush of withholding, planned by the Army Corps of Engineers, would have only defended the city from a level three storm; Katrina’s level five winds would have overwhelmed the project, even if it had been completed. Former Louisiana Democratic Senator John Breaux said the funds leftists blame Bush for cutting have been diverted by presidents since the 1970s. With the Left sniping at him over high deficits incurred by fighting a war in two nations, President Bush has had to trim non-essential spending, and no one considered it a vital priority to fund a system designed to guard against what Sen. Breaux called a “once every hundred years” storm. The experts several steps removed from the president – and on both sides of the aisle – simply bet a storm of this magnitude would not occur. The Army Corps of Engineers commander Lt. Gen. Carl Strock spelled out these sentiments: “We had an assurance that 99.5 percent this would be OK. We, unfortunately, have had that .5 percent activity here.” Strock also denied needed monies were diverted to Iraq.



However, this storm didn’t catch everyone by surprise. Scientists have known since the 1980s that the city’s levees would fail in a storm of Katrina’s magnitude.



The federal government’s response has been laudable. FEMA Director Mike Brown began moving federal resources into New Orleans two days before the storm hit. Currently, some 8,500 active duty troops are serving in New Orleans. The chaotic situation created by Mayor Nagin’s herding people into the Superdome, without adequate provisions for the long haul, with the resultant murder, rape, and looting a byproduct of poor, or non-existent, planning. Governor Blanco also deserves blame for not calling in the National Guard to get the situation in hand earlier. Now, 38,000 National Guardsmen are aiding the wider disaster area, including undertaking the police functions within New Orleans that Mayor Nagin could not or would not furnish.



With all these efforts going on, Jesse Jackson threw himself before the cameras yet again last week, claiming, “The president has not put together a federal program or a coordinated effort to address this massive crisis.”



Just prior to Jackson’s statement, Mayor Ray Nagin coped with the high pressure of the situation he created by launching into a profanity-laden radio interview with WWL-AM. He ranted that federal relief workers needed to “get off your asses.” (This at a time when helicopters bearing federal relief were being shot at by New Orleanians Nagin could not control.)



These are the same murderous looters the Democratic Party’s blog referred to as “the victims.” The only New Orleans residents not intimidated by the rampaging gangs of hoodlums have relied upon the only freedom that keeps law-abiding men safe: the right to privately own firearms.


The New Orleans debacle has demonstrated a few discomforting truths: there is apparently no national suffering so moving that the Left will not exploit it for crass political advantage. The nation should have learned this when Bill Clinton blamed the Oklahoma City Bombing on Rush Limbaugh and Republican “anti-government rhetoric.” More importantly, significant holes remain in our national infrastructure, which an enterprising terrorist cell could exploit. We can no longer turn a blind eye to the national security implications of mayoral elections in this nation’s vital cities. Their governance, so long dominated by corrupt and ineffectual leftists, has led to disaster on a massive scale. In the case of New Orleans, a plan had even been drawn up to fend off the worst…the mayor simply demurred from filling in its blanks. The tragedy filling our television screens for the last week is its result. Next time, the mourning could be caused by an act of war. At least one Bush critic, Rep. Bobby Jindahl, R-LA, is right: “After 9/11, this never should have happened.”





 
FN Posted: Tue Sep 6 07:55:36 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm guessing we all agree that what this boils down to ultimately is gross incompetence on some people's account, so my question about all of this is a simple one: who was fired because his/her incompetence, and who resigned from office?


 
addi Posted: Tue Sep 6 08:10:18 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  No one here, and no sane person has said Bush is to blame for the Hurricane. The accusations of incompetence were/are directed at his bumbling of the way he RESPONDED to the disaster...at the way he cut necessary funds to the levy projects needed to keep this from happening....for the cronyism shown in the appointment of an idiot to head up FEMA...for days going by while he "vacationed" before he took action...for having needed equipment and soldiers fighting a dumb fuck war he created instead of having them here at a time of critical need.
All facts, which you continue to ignore. To top it all off Ms. Rice spent her days in New York while this was happening going to "Spamalot", and spending a couple of grand on new shoes (when a customer had the nerve to confront her on why she was shopping instead of being in Washington the customer was thrown out of the store....go figure).
Could Rice have saved thousands of people if she had been doing her job instead of vacationing? No...but the perception this entire administration is giving to American citizens, and the world looking on, is that they really are out of touch...that if you're median income is $11,000 or less, and you're black and live in the gulf region, you just don't really matter that much. After all they're not evacuees...they're "refugees".

you just don't get it, hif. You never have and I doubt you ever will. Fox and all the right wing crap you fill your mind with every day has turned your capacity to reason critically and objectivly to mush.
I'm sorry for the personal nature of my responses to you lately, but I've had it with the unwaivering support of everything this president does. I know you're an intelligent person, but in matters of politics I think your obsession to conservative ideology has blinded you from seeing things as they really are...that sometimes Bush does the right thing, and sometimes he really fucks up.




 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 08:32:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>No one here, and no sane person has said Bush is to blame for the Hurricane. The accusations of incompetence were/are directed at his bumbling of the way he RESPONDED to the disaster...at the way he cut necessary funds to the levy projects needed to keep this from happening....for the cronyism shown in the appointment of an idiot to head up FEMA...for days going by while he "vacationed" before he took action...for having needed equipment and soldiers fighting a dumb fuck war he created instead of having them here at a time of critical need.
>All facts, which you continue to ignore. To top it all off Ms. Rice spent her days in New York while this was happening going to "Spamalot", and spending a couple of grand on new shoes (when a customer had the nerve to confront her on why she was shopping instead of being in Washington the customer was thrown out of the store....go figure).
>Could Rice have saved thousands of people if she had been doing her job instead of vacationing? No...but the perception this entire administration is giving to American citizens, and the world looking on, is that they really are out of touch...that if you're median income is $11,000 or less, and you're black and live in the gulf region, you just don't really matter that much. After all they're not evacuees...they're "refugees".
>
>you just don't get it, hif. You never have and I doubt you ever will. Fox and all the right wing crap you fill your mind with every day has turned your capacity to reason critically and objectivly to mush.
>I'm sorry for the personal nature of my responses to you lately, but I've had it with the unwaivering support of everything this president does. I know you're an intelligent person, but in matters of politics I think your obsession to conservative ideology has blinded you from seeing things as they really are...that sometimes Bush does the right thing, and sometimes he really fucks up.
>
Addie, you ignorant slut !
YOU are the one that just doesn't get it.
Nothing this man does will ever be the right thing for you, NOTHING !
I don't suppose you recall last year in Florida when Dubya was chastised for responding too quickly to hurricane victims ? Liberal accused him of responding too quickly only to curry favor with the voters. Where were you on that piece of liberal bullshit ?
That "perception" you speak of, that America doesn't care about her poor blacks in the gulf has been created and is being perpetuated by the liberal media.
If the fucking mayor of New Orleans had done his job there wouldn't be this great mass of people needing to be rescued. He had to be told to evacuate and then waited until the last minute to do it, then he didn't mobilize one single bus, not one single fucking bus. The city has an evacuation plan for just this type of disaster, but he ignored it.
Mike Brown sent FEMA workers in two days before Katrina made landfall.
And the federal funding you say BUSH had slashed from the budget that could have saved the city ? That has been going on since Jimmy Carter was in office. Maybe it's his fault.
As for you continually citing my blind allegiance to Dubya, that's bullshit too, since we have rarely discussed anything other than the war on terror where he is concerned. I have my disagreements with the man, but your blind hatred of him is on display for all the world to see. Nothing he could ever do or say would ever be the right thing in your eyes. Nothing.


 
FN Posted: Tue Sep 6 09:33:22 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Nothing this man does will ever be the right thing for you, NOTHING !

Fair enough hif, but would you agree that nothing this man does will ever be the wrong thing for you, nothing?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 10:09:12 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Nothing this man does will ever be the right thing for you, NOTHING !
>
>Fair enough hif, but would you agree that nothing this man does will ever be the wrong thing for you, nothing?
>
As I stated before, I have my disagreements with him but we have never really discussed anything other than the war on terror and you know very well my opinions where that is concerned.


 
addi Posted: Tue Sep 6 10:16:20 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Addie, you ignorant slut !

Hey now...I may be a slut, but I'm not ignorant
: )


>Nothing this man does will ever be the right thing for you, NOTHING !

Ten good things I think Bush has done:

1. He's made the distinction between Republicans and Democrats crystal clear.

2. He's said some really funny things.

3. He's cleared a lot of brush.

4. Demonstrated to Americans that no matter how bad things are playing golf will make it all better.

5. He quit drinking and snorting coke(I think).

6. He helped make the Daily Show the best news show on television.

7. He's "done" Laura Bush, which I'm assuming was good for her.

8. He hasn't visited Canada.

9. He signed the national "do not call" list (god, I loathe telemarketers)

10. He's given hope to every drunken drug-addict bumbling idiotic slacker fool that they too can one day become president.

There! I hope you're happy now.




 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 10:40:35 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  You prove my point for me.


 
DanSRose Posted: Tue Sep 6 11:43:49 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I am judging, because that is what I am supposed to do, by this and only this event.
Katrina was a Catagory 5 storm. The most major hurricanes that razed Florida, including Andrew, were all Catagory 4 storms.
The mayor and governor announced a state of emergency Sunday, FEMA made a mandatory evacuation that day as well, Greyhound and Amtrak both shut down services Sunday too, the mayor and governor and president of Jefferson Township scrambled to get people out but there was no way to do that, FEMA refused to call in for aid, and then Katrina hit.
Monday (I think it was Monday), the levees broke, and the entire region was flooded. All relief until Thursday was organized and run by the Red Cross and local officials. By then almost all of the area was underwater, people were stranded on rooftops, looting had already began, reporters stationed in the Superdome (which people were brought into as a storm shelter, when it became obvious, when the roof started falling apart, that it could only be temporary and FEMA still was absent), those reporters were calling the situation akin to a concentration camp (including ones from Fox News, eg. Shepard Smith)...
Sorry I lost my train of thought. My point is this, from the beginning, was apocalyptic. Biblical proportions. When the storm clipped Florida and made it into the Gulf (one of the warmest bodies of water in the world, also called "Hurricanes Eat Free Here") and made a B-line into the coast, drowning the coast and making one of the greatest cities of the world go the way of Atlantis and Alexandria, it became a federal problem (Federal = more than one state, like highways, kidnappings, and television).
People knew the flooding was going to happen. The governors, mayor, and senator (the one from LA continually tried to get money for it on the Senate floor, and continually got shot down) did everything they could that was in their power, aside from building an ark.


 
addi Posted: Tue Sep 6 12:10:05 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>You prove my point for me.

glad to be of service. I guess my attempt at humor didn't strike you as funny : )

You've got a gift for responses without substance that don't address specific points I've made (or others points here as well).
So here's your big opportunity to shut me up, hif, and make me look the fool. I'm setting you up perfect. I made a few factual statements earlier in this thread that, if wrong, will be easy for you to disprove and put egg on my face. I'll recap them here and allow you the sweet opportunity of shoving each one right back at my pasty liberal ass...cuz I want to be fair and balanced in my reporting of events.

1. While Katrina was hitting the gulf coast, Bush went to a golf course. True or false?

2. While Katrina was hitting the gulf coast Bush did a photo op playing a guitar with a country band. True or false?

3. While Katrina was hitting the gulf coast Condi Rice was in New York taking in the play "Spamalot", and spending big bucks on shoe shopping at an expensive NY boutique. True or false?

4. During his term in office Bush has slashed requested federal money to Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA]. True or false?


5. Michael D. Brown was nominated by President George W. as head of FEMA. Before joining the Bush administration in 2001, Brown spent 11 years as the commissioner of judges and stewards for the International Arabian Horse Association. During a national broadcast interview the person Bush chose to coordinate diaster relief admitted that he was unaware of the misery and desperation of refugees stranded at the New Orleans convention center. True or false?

6. Republican Gov. Mitt Romney called the response ``an embarrassment.'' True or false?

I could go on, but 6 points to rip apart is enough for now.
So fire back, friend. Remember...no Addi name calling or sweeping liberal bashing allowed. Just refute one or all of my statements above and you will have succeeded in publically humiliating me.

With all due respect, put up or shut up.






 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 12:13:10 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>I am judging, because that is what I am supposed to do, by this and only this event.
>Katrina was a Catagory 5 storm. The most major hurricanes that razed Florida, including Andrew, were all Catagory 4 storms.
>The mayor and governor announced a state of emergency Sunday, FEMA made a mandatory evacuation that day as well, Greyhound and Amtrak both shut down services Sunday too, the mayor and governor and president of Jefferson Township scrambled to get people out but there was no way to do that, FEMA refused to call in for aid, and then Katrina hit.
>Monday (I think it was Monday), the levees broke, and the entire region was flooded. All relief until Thursday was organized and run by the Red Cross and local officials. By then almost all of the area was underwater, people were stranded on rooftops, looting had already began, reporters stationed in the Superdome (which people were brought into as a storm shelter, when it became obvious, when the roof started falling apart, that it could only be temporary and FEMA still was absent), those reporters were calling the situation akin to a concentration camp (including ones from Fox News, eg. Shepard Smith)...
>Sorry I lost my train of thought. My point is this, from the beginning, was apocalyptic. Biblical proportions. When the storm clipped Florida and made it into the Gulf (one of the warmest bodies of water in the world, also called "Hurricanes Eat Free Here") and made a B-line into the coast, drowning the coast and making one of the greatest cities of the world go the way of Atlantis and Alexandria, it became a federal problem (Federal = more than one state, like highways, kidnappings, and television).
>People knew the flooding was going to happen. The governors, mayor, and senator (the one from LA continually tried to get money for it on the Senate floor, and continually got shot down) did everything they could that was in their power, aside from building an ark.
>
In accordance with the “City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan” – a blueprint drawn up to deal with emergencies like this one – all “Authority to issue evacuations of elements of the population is vested in the Mayor.” The document specifically states, “The person responsible for recognition of hurricane related preparation needs and for the issuance of an evacuation order is the Mayor of the City of New Orleans.” This outline does not mention any specific federal government’s role in disaster relief, instead carving out roles for state and municipal governments. In fact, as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld noted this holiday weekend, posse commitatus statutes bar federal officers from working as law enforcement officials.



Charged with so heavy a responsibility, Mayor Nagin punted, then passed the buck. The National Hurricane Center called Nagin Saturday night asking him to evacuate New Orleans, and President Bush also begged him to get his people to safety. As mayor, the final decision was Nagin's. He was expected to issue such an order 48 hours before the storm made landfall; however, the storm touched down and the levees gave way less than 48 hours after his proclamation.



Moreover, he is to see that “Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life saving assistance.” Yet some 205 buses, and perhaps a greater number of large transit vehicles, were left stranded in a flooded parking lot. University of New Orleans professor Shirley Laksa had calculated some 125,000 residents do not have private transportation. As a result of Nagin’s inaction, Katrina’s victims are twice as likely to be poor than the average American. These are the people who had no recourse but to wait for the local government to rescue them; these are the people municipal malfeasance and nonfeasance abandoned to an ill-equipped Superdome.





 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 12:41:26 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>You prove my point for me.
>
>glad to be of service. I guess my attempt at humor didn't strike you as funny : )
>
>You've got a gift for responses without substance that don't address specific points I've made (or others points here as well).
>So here's your big opportunity to shut me up, hif, and make me look the fool. I'm setting you up perfect. I made a few factual statements earlier in this thread that, if wrong, will be easy for you to disprove and put egg on my face. I'll recap them here and allow you the sweet opportunity of shoving each one right back at my pasty liberal ass...cuz I want to be fair and balanced in my reporting of events.
>
>1. While Katrina was hitting the gulf coast, Bush went to a golf course. True or false?
>
>2. While Katrina was hitting the gulf coast Bush did a photo op playing a guitar with a country band. True or false?
>
>3. While Katrina was hitting the gulf coast Condi Rice was in New York taking in the play "Spamalot", and spending big bucks on shoe shopping at an expensive NY boutique. True or false?
>
>4. During his term in office Bush has slashed requested federal money to Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA]. True or false?
>
>
>5. Michael D. Brown was nominated by President George W. as head of FEMA. Before joining the Bush administration in 2001, Brown spent 11 years as the commissioner of judges and stewards for the International Arabian Horse Association. During a national broadcast interview the person Bush chose to coordinate diaster relief admitted that he was unaware of the misery and desperation of refugees stranded at the New Orleans convention center. True or false?
>
>6. Republican Gov. Mitt Romney called the response ``an embarrassment.'' True or false?
>
>I could go on, but 6 points to rip apart is enough for now.
>So fire back, friend. Remember...no Addi name calling or sweeping liberal bashing allowed. Just refute one or all of my statements above and you will have succeeded in publically humiliating me.
>
>With all due respect, put up or shut up.
>
I would say that all your points are absolutely true, so what?
Why don't you refute any of my points instead of Bush bashing ?
You seem to have ignored quite a lot of my posts.
>
>


 
addi Posted: Tue Sep 6 13:07:28 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>I would say that all your points are absolutely true, so what?

If you are unable to make any value judgement after agreeing that they're all true then my saying anything is an effort in futility.



>You seem to have ignored quite a lot of my posts.

Actually I feel like I have a pretty good batting average responding to your posts with specifics attempting to counter what you say.
I admit I do better when you make a defense in your own words than when you copy and paste some right wing op-ed piece.
I also admit that the locals and state officials did make some serious mistakes regarding the Katrina mess...along with the screw ups Bush made.
Here's what separates you and I though. You are incapable of ever pointing your finger at Dubya and specifically stating that he did something wrong. Whether the subject is taxes, the economy, the war on...I mean the struggle against terrorism, the environment, or this topic Bush is blameless in your eyes. That's what scares me about you, and about conservatives in general.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 13:49:04 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>If you are unable to make any value judgement after agreeing that they're all true then my saying anything is an effort in futility.
>
Sorry, but your little true or false quiz, regardless of the answers do not paint an accurate picture of anything other than your hatred.
>
>>You seem to have ignored quite a lot of my posts.
>
>Actually I feel like I have a pretty good batting average responding to your posts with specifics attempting to counter what you say.
>I admit I do better when you make a defense in your own words than when you copy and paste some right wing op-ed piece.
>I also admit that the locals and state officials did make some serious mistakes regarding the Katrina mess...along with the screw ups Bush made.
>
Specifically what screw ups did he make ?
Also are you absolutely sure that Mike Brown has no qualifications, other than his equine stuff, or is that just more liberal spin?
>
>Here's what separates you and I though. You are incapable of ever pointing your finger at Dubya and specifically stating that he did something wrong. Whether the subject is taxes, the economy, the war on...I mean the struggle against terrorism, the environment, or this topic Bush is blameless in your eyes.
>
And you have never responded to my point that you can NEVER look at Bush and say "he did the right thing this time".
Blind hated is just as bad as blind allegiance. No one, not even Clinton was wrong 100% of the time.
I don't have blind allegiance for Bush, you just haven't found the right topics yet.


 
DanSRose Posted: Tue Sep 6 14:56:24 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Mike Brown has no emergency relief experience. No experience does not equal head of the Agency which is in charge of national emergency management. He was a college roommate of the chief of staff to the president and a (as in 'one of several') commishiner of the national Horse thing.

Yes, the City's evacuation plan got screwed up big time. Including the buses, the evacuation of the sick and elderly, etc.

This was bible-weather, floods, storms, deaths, rotting in streets, riots, rapes. This was something anyone could have known about by turning on the TV Friday night (which was when the governor announced the state of emergency and asked for federal aid and was told it would come, I just learned). Tuesday/Wednesday the aid showed up.
This was a failure on the local and state level, clearly. But it was a bigger failure on the federal level, both in the immediacy and historically.
Look here:
http://205.188.130.53/ngm/0410/feature5/?fs=www7.nationalgeographic.com


 
addi Posted: Tue Sep 6 14:58:07 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>I don't have blind allegiance for Bush, you just haven't found the right topics yet.

Enlighten me then, hiffer. Share with me specific things over the past 5 years that you think were mistakes Bush has made. I'm waiting with baited, but fresh and minty, breath.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 16:15:59 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>I don't have blind allegiance for Bush, you just haven't found the right topics yet.
>
>Enlighten me then, hiffer. Share with me specific things over the past 5 years that you think were mistakes Bush has made. I'm waiting with baited, but fresh and minty, breath.>
>
I will tell you my areas of disagreement with Dubya only if you will tell me some of his policies you have been in agreement with. As far as I know the only thing he ever did you agreed with was Afghanistan. And you had reservations about that.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 16:30:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Mike Brown has no emergency relief experience. No experience does not equal head of the Agency which is in charge of national emergency management. He was a college roommate of the chief of staff to the president and a (as in 'one of several') commishiner of the national Horse thing.
>
I believe the following says otherwise:

Under Secretary Brown has led Homeland Security’s response to more than 164 presidentially declared disasters and emergencies, including the 2003 Columbia Shuttle disaster and the California wildfires in 2003. In 2004, Mr. Brown led FEMA’s thousands of dedicated disaster workers during the most active hurricane season in over 100 years, as FEMA delivered aid more quickly and more efficiently than ever before.

Previously, Mr. Brown served as FEMA's Deputy Director and the agency's General Counsel. Shortly after the September 11th terrorist attacks, Mr. Brown served on the President's Consequence Management Principal's Committee, which acted as the White House's policy coordination group for the federal domestic response to the attacks. Later, the President asked him to head the Consequence Management Working Group to identify and resolve key issues regarding the federal response plan. In August 2002, President Bush appointed him to the Transition Planning Office for the new Department of Homeland Security, serving as the transition leader for the EP&R Division.

>

>Yes, the City's evacuation plan got screwed up big time. Including the buses, the evacuation of the sick and elderly, etc.
>
>This was bible-weather, floods, storms, deaths, rotting in streets, riots, rapes. This was something anyone could have known about by turning on the TV Friday night (which was when the governor announced the state of emergency and asked for federal aid and was told it would come, I just learned). Tuesday/Wednesday the aid showed up.
>This was a failure on the local and state level, clearly. But it was a bigger failure on the federal level, both in the immediacy and historically.
>Look here:
>http://205.188.130.53/ngm/0410/feature5/?fs=www7.nationalgeographic.com
>
Yeah, I saw that yesterday. It tells the story of a hypothetical hurricane and then goes on to blame Bush for the lack of federal funding. This funding request has been on the table since the Carter administration, every single administration since has withheld this funding. Who you gonna blame ?
Didn't Bush declare this a disaster area two days before Katrina landed ?
Didn't FEMA have people in place two days before Katrina landed ?
Didn't the local authorities do anything other than wring their hands and dish off their responsibilities?
There is just no way there should have been that many people left to be rescued, no fucking way.
The feds are being asked to something they never should have had to do.

The one thing I will admit to is that the Feds coulda shoulda been there one day earlier than they were. The beaurocracy that kept that from happening is just too goddam big !



 
addi Posted: Tue Sep 6 16:37:03 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>I will tell you my areas of disagreement with Dubya only if you will tell me some of his policies you have been in agreement with. As far as I know the only thing he ever did you agreed with was Afghanistan. And you had reservations about that.

lol!
Well now you're just not playing fair. I asked you first : )
Anyway, I did tell you that I agreed going into Afghanistan was the right move to make (how things have gone since then is another matter), but that is one thing, hif...which is one more thing than you've given me.

Tell you what, I'll go a step farther cuz I'm a reasonable dude. I thought sending marines to Liberia was a good thing. I thought the pressure for Israel to stay on the "roadmap" was/is a good thing. I thought his promised aid to africa to fight AIDS is a good thing (as of yet I've heard they haven't recieved any money though).
Okay..that's four things (man, that was hard).
Your turn


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 16:44:17 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>I will tell you my areas of disagreement with Dubya only if you will tell me some of his policies you have been in agreement with. As far as I know the only thing he ever did you agreed with was Afghanistan. And you had reservations about that.
>
>lol!
>Well now you're just not playing fair. I asked you first : )
>Anyway, I did tell you that I agreed going into Afghanistan was the right move to make (how things have gone since then is another matter), but that is one thing, hif...which is one more thing than you've given me.
>
>Tell you what, I'll go a step farther cuz I'm a reasonable dude. I thought sending marines to Liberia was a good thing. I thought the pressure for Israel to stay on the "roadmap" was/is a good thing. I thought his promised aid to africa to fight AIDS is a good thing (as of yet I've heard they haven't recieved any money though).
>Okay..that's four things (man, that was hard).
>Your turn
>
OK, I think his record on immigration is abysmal and I don't like the fact that he has no energy policy.
I think we need military on our southern border.
And I would not be opposed to a nuclear strike on Atlanta.
:-)


 
addi Posted: Tue Sep 6 16:44:43 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  and this one is just for shits and giggles (although if any of it is even remotely true then I guess it's not that funny). But take it for what it's worth, as Kuro would say, cuz without specific names and facts to back it up it's only internet heresay...


Bush's Obscene Tirades Rattle White House Aides By DOUG THOMPSON Aug 25,
2005,


While President George W. Bush travels around the country in a
last-ditch effort to sell his Iraq war, White House aides scramble
frantically behind the scenes to hide the dark mood of an increasingly
angry leader who unleashes obscenity-filled outbursts at anyone who
dares disagree with him.

"I'm not meeting again with that goddamned bitch," Bush screamed at
aides who suggested he meet again with Cindy Sheehan, the war-protesting
mother whose son died in Iraq. "She can go to hell as far as I'm
concerned!"

Bush flashes the bird, something aides say he does often and has been
doing since his days as governor of Texas. Bush, administration aides
confide, frequently explodes into tirades over those who protest the
war, calling them "motherfucking traitors." He reportedly was so upset
over Veterans of Foreign Wars members who wore "bullshit protectors"
over their ears during his speech to their annual convention that he
told aides to "tell those VFW assholes that I'll never speak to them
again if they can't keep their members under control."

White House insiders say Bush is growing increasingly bitter over
mounting opposition to his war in Iraq. Polls show a vast majority of
Americans now believe the war was a mistake and most doubt the
President's honesty.

"Who gives a flying fuck what the polls say," he screamed at a recent
strategy meeting. "I'm the President and I'll do whatever I goddamned
please. They don't know shit."

Bush, while setting up for a photo op for signing the recent CAFTA bill,
flipped an extended middle finger to reporters. Aides say the President
often "flips the bird" to show his displeasure and tells aides who
disagree with him to "go to hell" or to "go fuck yourself."
His habit of giving people the finger goes back to his days as Texas governor, aides admit, and videos of him doing so before press conferences were widely circulated among TV stations during those days. A recent video showing him shooting the finger to reporters while walking also recently
surfaced.

Well that's not very christian of him : )



 
addi Posted: Tue Sep 6 16:52:21 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>OK, I think his record on immigration is abysmal and I don't like the fact that he has no energy policy.
>I think we need military on our southern border.

Those stinkin' mexicans!! Taking all our lawn maintenance jobs away!
: )

I hear you on the energy policy stuff.

>And I would not be opposed to a nuclear strike on Atlanta.

That's fine by me, as long as it's not my neighborhood, and he targets the poor black ghetto slums. We just passed a bill to rid our downtown of panhandlers. Blowing up the bad parts of town would clean up things real good.
: )

*and I'm impressed you could do that. There may be hope for you yet.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 16:54:18 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  It's funny but I doubt the truthfulness of it.
Not one name or source.
And no one else is reporting it either.


 
beetlebum Posted: Tue Sep 6 17:02:27 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>addi said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>
>>>I will tell you my areas of disagreement with Dubya only if you will tell me some of his policies you have been in agreement with. As far as I know the only thing he ever did you agreed with was Afghanistan. And you had reservations about that.
>>
>>lol!
>>Well now you're just not playing fair. I asked you first : )
>>Anyway, I did tell you that I agreed going into Afghanistan was the right move to make (how things have gone since then is another matter), but that is one thing, hif...which is one more thing than you've given me.
>>
>>Tell you what, I'll go a step farther cuz I'm a reasonable dude. I thought sending marines to Liberia was a good thing. I thought the pressure for Israel to stay on the "roadmap" was/is a good thing. I thought his promised aid to africa to fight AIDS is a good thing (as of yet I've heard they haven't recieved any money though).
>>Okay..that's four things (man, that was hard).
>>Your turn
>>
>OK, I think his record on immigration is abysmal and I don't like the fact that he has no energy policy.
>I think we need military on our southern border.
>And I would not be opposed to a nuclear strike on Atlanta.
>:-)

LOL. That was so cheeky it made me laugh out loud. Here I thought you were making nice and you were waiting to throw out that ace up your sleeve. Snarky. :o)


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 18:30:43 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>That's fine by me, as long as it's not my neighborhood, and he targets the poor black ghetto slums. We just passed a bill to rid our downtown of panhandlers. Blowing up the bad parts of town would clean up things real good.
>: )
You have poor black Ghetto slums in Atlanta ?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 18:31:44 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>
>Those stinkin' mexicans!! Taking all our lawn maintenance jobs away!
>: )
Up it's the roofing jobs they're getting.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Sep 6 20:48:49 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>addi said:
>>
>>Those stinkin' mexicans!! Taking all our lawn maintenance jobs away!
>>: )
>Up it's the roofing jobs they're getting.
>
Should read:
Up here it's the roofing jobs they're getting.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Sep 6 20:50:05 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Lets hear what haywired.com has to say about this.

"A lot of you are foolihsly saying that there wre innocent people in New Orleans that didn't deserve to die or suffer. You are not making sense. How dare you question God's decisions. God is the only one to believe in. If you don't believe in what he does or in him at all, then you have no life and have destructive behaviour. It's either you're on God's side or the wrong side. Therefore it follows that God had a perfectly good reason for the disaster.

Have you ever thought that God lets bad things happen to good people too as a way to test their faith? Someone who could suffer and still believe in God is a hero. Also, have you thought that by making innocents suffer, God is making an example of them. He is showing that he will not hesitate to use his power, no matter on who or where, so you better be careful with what you do. And lastly, have you considered that maybe all these people were not so innocent to begin with? These people are not so "innocent" it seems. Even if they were, they let all the sinners get away with so much, so this is God's way of punishing everyone. I personally do not tolerate sinful acts. And that is why I put up this site to begin with. I also put up this site to show that I am one of the few innocent people in the world. You could only be on God's side if you show that you're on God's side and correct people into becoming fellow Christians, then the rest will follow.

Yes, I know there are sinners everywhere, "why isn't everywhere else getting destroyed?" you ask. Because God, obviously, does not want all his creations to be destroyed and he's giving everyone else a chance to straighten up and be good Christians. Do you think God is an unfair man? I wouldn't be surprised if the whole world started to be destroyed though. Are you people familiar with Judgment Day? Eventually it will come because too many degenerates insist their sins are morals and hav been doing this for too long! I look forward to it and I have faith God will rescue me from this world of sinners."


For more highly entertaining, hilarious content, please visit http://www.haywired.com/goldchrist/





 
Zacq Posted: Tue Sep 6 22:20:34 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>YOU are the one that just doesn't get it.

addison said:
>you just don't get it, hif. You never have and I doubt you ever will.

No, you're delusional!

No, you're delusional!


 
DanSRose Posted: Tue Sep 6 22:21:19 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Judgement Day was better than the first one, and much much better than Rise of the Machines, no matter how much Nick Stahl or Claire Danes was in it.

I could only read that in the voice Phil Sebbins, the one-eyed boss from Harvey Birdman, voiced by Stephen Colbert of the Daily Show. Otherwise I will throw something and break my monitor. I grew nauseous that someone has this much blind faith that he believes it is his job to judge, the backwords thought of the Word is Absolute, though the word was passed down by men, generation from generation. whatever. bleh

Men are fallible. This past week there has been failing. Some of it you can label to a single individual or group, some to the system of our buracracy. Some of it can only be faulted to the fact that a class 5 hurricane barreled on top of beautiful city and countryside which rested below sealevel and needed more dams and levees.


 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Sep 7 01:18:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Btw, the president. Was on. Vacation. FOR THREE DAYS! After the Storm. Drowned. New Orleans.
The Vice President emerged Monday (9/5).
Wednesday (8/31), the president went to San Diego, with FEMA director Michael Brown. He there mourned Trent Lott's coastal house.

None of those are signs of leadership. Be proud.

Failure is failure, but they were trying (the mayor, the governor, the federal and state senators)


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 06:46:06 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Btw, the president. Was on. Vacation. FOR THREE DAYS! After the Storm. Drowned. New Orleans.
>The Vice President emerged Monday (9/5).
>Wednesday (8/31), the president went to San Diego, with FEMA director Michael Brown. He there mourned Trent Lott's coastal house.
>
>None of those are signs of leadership. Be proud.
>
>Failure is failure, but they were trying (the mayor, the governor, the federal and state senators)
>
You must have missed the part where Bush had to call the governor and the mayor to tell them to evacuate three days before landfall, and still nothing happened until one day before landfall.
How much trying is that ?
The feds were the only ones that did anything at all, yes it could have been done better, but they shouldn't have had to contend with that many people.
At least FEMA had people in place 48 hours before landfall.
The mayor and governor were total fuckups in this instance.
As for leadership, Bush went there twice last week and has pretty much taken charge of the relief effort from the feds. He is on record as saying the results were not acceptable and is working to change that.
When have you ever seen a vice president to anything other than be a figurehead ? What would you have Cheney do ?

BTW when the prez is on vacation, it's not like when you and I go on vacation.
He is still working most of the time.
That why I think it's grossly unfair to chastise Condi Rice for going to a broadway play. These folks routinely put in 20 hour days, and an hour or two of diversion is not a bad thing.


 
addi Posted: Wed Sep 7 07:35:27 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  When you have a natural catastrophe such as the U.S. has never seen in modern history like this happen (and have advance notice as well)I don't give a flying fuck about whether or not you've "earned" a vacation! It's there goddamn responsibility to get their asses back to Washington ASAP and do everything they can. Even if they can't do all that much (which is the standard this administration has set) they, at the very minimum, need to give the impression that they are trying to help and do everything in their power as elected officials to help. Is that expecting too much from Bush, Cheney, and Rice? Apparantly it was.

BTW, hif...calling someone and telling them they should evacuate is totally different than calling someone and telling them the federal government, national guard and FEMA are going to be there to help immediately, because if this hurricane hits as hard as it's projected to your local officials won't be able to handle the devistation. Especially in light of the FACT that Bush cut the funding needed and requested by SELA to properly shore up the levys protecting the city years before.

How you can defend the response to this as competant by Bush is totally beyond me. Getting things in place a fucking week after the fact is inexcusable!
_______________________________________
September 6th, 2005 1:30 am
Barbara Bush: Things Working Out "Very Well" for Poor Evacuees from New Orleans


By E&P Staff / Editor & Publisher

NEW YORK -- Accompanying her husband, former President George H.W.Bush, on a tour of hurricane relief centers in Houston, Barbara Bush said today, referring to the poor who had lost everything back home and evacuated, "This is working very well for them."

The former First Lady's remarks were aired this evening on National Public Radio's "Marketplace" program.

She was part of a group in Houston today at the Astrodome that included her husband and former President Bill Clinton, who were chosen by her son, the current president, to head fundraising efforts for the recovery. Sen. Hilary Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama were also present.

In a segment at the top of the show on the surge of evacuees to the Texas city, Barbara Bush said: "Almost everyone I've talked to says we're going to move to Houston."

Then she added: "What I'm hearing is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this (she chuckles slightly) is working very well for them."



SOMEBODY PLEASE PUT DUCT TAPE OVER THIS IDIOTS MOUTH AND LOCK HER IN A CLOSET!



 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 08:08:12 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sorry Addie, not buying your bullshit.
This is all to be laid at the local level:

The trouble at the local level
Linda Chavez

September 7, 2005


"You and your family (yes, your children, too) should be dropped right in the middle of New Orleans and be forced to live there for three days, and maybe then your tight grip on the GOP might be loosened and you'll be awakened to the failures of the incompetent man sitting in the White House." Such is the vitriol spewing forth in the aftermath of Katrina from those who believe George W. Bush is responsible for all of life's misfortunes. I received this hateful e-mail after commenting on television that while the federal response to the crisis has shouldered most of the criticism, state and local officials bore major responsibility for the chaos that enveloped New Orleans in the immediate wake of the hurricane.

As it happened, my youngest son, Rudy, was in New Orleans as the storm approached the Gulf Coast, so I was acutely focused on what actions were being taken to evacuate the city. On Aug. 27, with the hurricane gaining force in the Gulf, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin called for a voluntary evacuation of the city. But even after he ordered a mandatory evacuation the next day, he made no plans to transport the elderly, the infirm, or those too poor to get themselves out, much less thousands of tourists stranded without cars. On the afternoon of Aug. 27, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco held a press briefing in which she answered a question about what could be done to avert disaster: "We can pray very hard that the intensity will weaken. We don't know what it's going to be yet, but we're all watching the weather service. I believe that's the best we can do right now." It was at that point that I knew my son was in real trouble.

The governor had the power to call out the National Guard in advance of the storm. Indeed, it was imperative that she do so if troops were to be available in the immediate hours after the hurricane hit since it takes 72 hours to fully mobilize. Gov. Blanco delayed taking crucial actions -- in fact, it was the president who called her to plead that she declare an emergency. "Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding," the Associated Press reported Aug. 28.

The city had hundreds of vehicles at its disposal: school buses, city buses, garbage trucks, and city cars. But the mayor failed to mobilize these or to set up procedures for all city employees to be available to assist in keeping order and organizing evacuation. For those unlucky enough to end up at the Superdome, no plans were in place to get thousands of desperate people out of there once the winds died down. My son was able to get out on Sunday before the storm hit. Thanks to quick thinking, lots of determination and a measure of good fortune, he managed to get a rental car at New Orleans airport and drove to Baton Rouge with four friends. But others were not so lucky.

In our federal system of government, the national government does not step in -- even in dire emergency -- until state officials request that help. But what do you do when those officials are dysfunctional, as they clearly were in Louisiana? According to The Washington Post, federal officials have asked the governor for "unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law." And, the Post reported, "Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said."

No doubt, the federal response to this crisis was far from flawless, but at the end of the day, it was federal troops that restored order, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers that plugged breaches in the levees, and federal forces that ultimately evacuated thousands of those trapped. Instead of blaming federal authorities, the country ought to be giving thanks.





 
addi Posted: Wed Sep 7 08:31:30 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  exactly what in my previous post was bullshit?
The three leaders weren't on vacation? They shouldn't have all been at the white house showing leadership in a time of crisis? Bush didn't cut funds from the levy project? Mom Bush didn't say those things?
Point out the "bullshit" part to me please.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 08:44:08 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>exactly what in my previous post was bullshit?
>The three leaders weren't on vacation? They shouldn't have all been at the white house showing leadership in a time of crisis? Bush didn't cut funds from the levy project? Mom Bush didn't say those things?
>Point out the "bullshit" part to me please.
>
Labelling the federal response as incompetent for one.
Please tell me what Dubya or Condi can do in Washington that they can't do while away from their offices. They have enough resources at their command to run the country from anywhere in the world. You say they should be "showing leadership" by being in Washington. Typical liberal crap, choosing style over substance.
Showing leadership to whom ?
Do you think the survivors give a damn what Condi is wearing or where dubya phones in his orders from ? Do you think they even know ?
The more I read and discover what actually happened, and there is a lot of info yet to come out, the more I see that the feds acted correctly though not flawlessly.
As for Ms Bush, so what?
She has been a model first lady for 5yrs now before she put her foot in her mouth. give her a break. At least she's not Hilary.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 08:46:56 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
Bush didn't cut funds from the levy project?
>
You wanna go a little farther with that one and say who else cut those funds ? Going all the way back to the Carter administration ?
But you choose to lay it on Bush.


 
addi Posted: Wed Sep 7 08:53:38 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:

>I also admit that the locals and state officials did make some serious mistakes regarding the Katrina mess

From a previous post. You see I'm not, and have never said, that the entire disaster is Bush's fault. If you could get past your myopic support of Bush for a second you'd realize that I believe the federal response was poor, and added to the disasterous effects of Katrina. In fact I'm not alone in this view. Both democratic and republican leaders are know publically acknowledging that FEMA and the federal government made serious errors, and that a commission group needs to be set up to discover how this happened and how we can avoid repeating this again in the future.
Is it so threatening to your fragile idealogy to accept the fact that Bush also fucked up on this?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 09:05:16 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>addi said:
>
>>I also admit that the locals and state officials did make some serious mistakes regarding the Katrina mess
>
>From a previous post. You see I'm not, and have never said, that the entire disaster is Bush's fault. If you could get past your myopic support of Bush for a second you'd realize that I believe the federal response was poor, and added to the disasterous effects of Katrina. In fact I'm not alone in this view. Both democratic and republican leaders are know publically acknowledging that FEMA and the federal government made serious errors, and that a commission group needs to be set up to discover how this happened and how we can avoid repeating this again in the future.
>Is it so threatening to your fragile idealogy to accept the fact that Bush also fucked up on this?
>
I believe the words you used were "a disgrace" and "incompetent".
The reality is far from that.
"could have done a better job" is far from disgraceful and incompetent.
That's your liberal bullhsit.


 
addi Posted: Wed Sep 7 09:11:33 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Taken from an article in the New Yorker by David Remnick:

"...Obviously, a hurricane is beyond human blame, and the political miscalculations that have come to light, the negligent planning, the delayed rescue and aid efforts, the thoroughly confused and uninspired political leadership cannot all be laid at the feet of President Bush."
"... the President's priorities, his indifference to questions of infrastructure and the environment, magnified an already complicated disaster. In an era of tax cuts for the wealthy, Bush consistently slashed the Army Corps of Engineers' funding requests to improve the levees holding back Lake Pontchartrain. This year, he asked for $3.9 million, $23 million less than the Corps requested. In the end, Bush reluctantly agreed to $5.7 million, delaying seven contracts, including one to enlarge the New Orleans levees. Former Republican congressman Michael Parker was forced out as the head of the Corps by Bush in 2002 when he dared to protest the lack of proper funding."
"Similarly, the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, which is supposed to improve drainage and pumping systems in the New Orleans area, recently asked for $62.5 million; the White House proposed $10.5 million. Former Louisiana Senator John Breaux, a pro-Bush Democrat, said, "All of us said, Look, build it or you're going to have all of Jefferson Parish under water." And they didn't, and now all of Jefferson Parish is under water."
"After evaluating the city's structural deficiencies, the Times-Picayune reporters concluded that a catastrophe was "a matter of when, not if." The same paper said last year, "For the first time in 37 years, federal budget cuts have all but stopped major work on the New Orleans area's east bank hurricane levees, a complex network of concrete walls, metal gates and giant earthen berms that won't be finished for at least another decade." A Category 4 or 5 hurricane would be a catastrophe: "Soon the geographical bowl of the Crescent City would fill up with the waters of the lake, leaving those unable to evacuate with little option but to cluster on rooftops "terrain they would have to share with hungry rats, fire ants, nutria, snakes, and perhaps alligators. The water itself would become a festering stew of sewage, gasoline, refinery chemicals, and debris." And that describes much of the Gulf Coast today.


 
addi Posted: Wed Sep 7 09:15:59 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>That's your liberal bullhsit.

If you're going to insult me, hif, at least spell it right....you...you...dubmfukc


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 09:18:01 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Taken from 4 posts up:

The governor had the power to call out the National Guard in advance of the storm. Indeed, it was imperative that she do so if troops were to be available in the immediate hours after the hurricane hit since it takes 72 hours to fully mobilize. Gov. Blanco delayed taking crucial actions -- in fact, it was the president who called her to plead that she declare an emergency. "Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding," the Associated Press reported Aug. 28.

The city had hundreds of vehicles at its disposal: school buses, city buses, garbage trucks, and city cars. But the mayor failed to mobilize these or to set up procedures for all city employees to be available to assist in keeping order and organizing evacuation. For those unlucky enough to end up at the Superdome, no plans were in place to get thousands of desperate people out of there once the winds died down. My son was able to get out on Sunday before the storm hit.

In our federal system of government, the national government does not step in -- even in dire emergency -- until state officials request that help. But what do you do when those officials are dysfunctional, as they clearly were in Louisiana? According to The Washington Post, federal officials have asked the governor for "unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law." And, the Post reported, "Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said."



 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 09:22:06 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>That's your liberal bullhsit.
>
>If you're going to insult me, hif, at least spell it right....you...you...dubmfukc
>
Sir, I have been every bit the gentleman, resisting the urge to correct your miserable spelling, not taking you to task due to the immediacy of this forum.
However, you leave me no choice in the matter now.
Hereafter and forthwith, be prepared to defend yourself sir, for I shall smite you down with good grammar !


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 11:05:32 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  September 07, 2005,

We Failed You? Try Again.

Anne Rice blames America, not local officials.



"To my country I want to say this: During this crisis you failed us. You looked down on us; you dismissed our victims; you dismissed us. You want our Jazz Fest, you want our Mardi Gras, you want our cooking and our music. Then when you saw us in real trouble, when you saw a tiny minority preying on the weak among us, you called us "Sin City," and turned your backs.” — novelist and New Orleans resident Anne Rice
Let me get this straight.

Ms. Rice, you live in (what was) a very attractive city which lies below sea level. On one side you have a giant lake; on the other side you have the Gulf of Mexico. Running through the middle is the Mississippi River. All of which are above you.

Preventing those giant bodies of water from flooding and drowning you are levees. These levees are described as “century-old.” People have been warning about the devastating effects of a direct hit from a hurricane for decades.

I’ve heard a great deal of complaint in recent days that the federal government may not have allocated enough money to speed up the upgrades to those levees. This does, however, raise the question of why city and state residents were waiting around for the federal government to send enough money to upgrade this, instead of paying for it themselves. I mean, it was only your homes, businesses, and lives at stake. Perhaps these upgrades would have been expensive. If only this city had some sort of events to attract tourists, from which to collect taxes.

Anyway, your state and local officials decided to spend your tax dollars on something else that they (and presumably you) found more important, and then they waited for the rest of the country to pay for these life-preserving necessities.

Your beloved city and region has a colorful political history, in which there is, oh, a wee bit of corruption. I’m from New Jersey, so I can’t throw stones at that glass house. But you guys have managed to pick leaders who give you the worst of both worlds — they’re scandal ridden and incompetent in a crisis. Look, Rudy Giuliani might have run around with Judith Nathan before his divorce, but he was a hell of a leader in our darkest hours. You know the National Review crowd isn’t a fan of Pataki, but the man was a rock after 9/11 compared to Governor Weepy I’ll-Evacuate-Eventually and Mayor It’s-Everybody’s-Fault-Except-Mine. Nobody’s throwing around the adjective “Churchillian” about any of your officials these days. We didn’t pick your local officials; you guys did.

Rice asks, “how many times did Gov. Kathleen Blanco have to say that the situation was desperate? How many times did Mayor Ray Nagin have to call for aid?”

Ahem. What about those buses left unused, less than a mile from the Superdome? JunkYardBlog notes that it’s written in the Southeast Louisiana Evacuation Plan that buses are supposed to be used for evacuation of those who don’t have personal vehicles. As JYB observes, “there is something very peculiar about a city and a state that have a plan on the books for years that outlines what to do when a hurricane is about to strike, yet when a hurricane comes roaring in, the responsible officials just chuck the plan and try winging it. Delaying and then winging it in the face of a monstrous Cat 4/5 hurricane is never, ever a good idea, especially for New Orleans.” (See more here.) Ironically, Nagin told CNN, “I need buses, man,” when he had plenty sitting around unused before the storm hit. Now they’re flooded and useless.

But it’s not like state and local officials could have seen this coming. They have never had a hurricane bearing down on them before and… oh, wait, there was Hurricane Ivan just last year. And after that dodged bullet, Blanco and Nagin both acknowledged they needed a better evacuation plan.

I would note that we’ve seen some pretty intense disasters in other parts of the country, like planes crashing into skyscrapers and subsequently collapsing, earthquakes, tornadoes, blizzards, and yet somehow, none of these disasters had the total breakdown of law and order, civil society, etc. Jonah Goldberg’s early joke about a Mad-Max style post-apocalyptic tribal anarchy may have been in poor taste, but it has turned out to be nightmarishly prescient.

We failed you? No, oh brilliant creator of Exit to Eden, you failed. You might not think of it this way, but: Your leaders failed to upgrade the levees. You elected a bunch of weepers and blame-shifters who lost their head in a crisis.

Over the past decades, your elected officials have let a criminal element incubate and grow until they ruled the streets, instead of the forces of law and order. In pop culture, a New Orleans thief is always a charming rogue with a devilish smile. In reality, they’re a bunch of thugs.

If the number of residents who are looting thugs were such a “tiny minority,” we wouldn’t have seen this widespread, relentless anarchy. Madam, a noticeable number of your neighbors saw this disaster as an opportunity to smash a window and run away with a television, an act that reveals much about the inadequacies of the local school system, since that thief won’t be enjoying that television with any electricity anytime soon.

I would also note that this is one hell of a police force your local officials hired and that you and your neighbors tolerated. 50 percent turned in their badges during the crisis and quit. Your police superintendent is conceding that some cops were looting. Just want to refresh your memory — four years ago, New York and Washington, planes falling out of the sky, thousands dead, no idea what the hell is coming next… and the cops, among others, showed up to work.

To save you guys now, I — and a lot of other Americans — will pitch in. We are witnessing the biggest mobilization of civilian and military rescue and relief crews in history. But I have a sneaking suspicion you’re going to want the rest of us to pay for the rebuilding of your city. (In the near future, we’re going to have to have a little chat about the wisdom of building below sea level, directly next to large bodies of water.) And if you’re going to come to the rest of us hat in hand, demanding the rest of us clean up after your poor judgment, I’d appreciate a little less “you failed us” and a little more “we’ve learned our lesson.”

— Jim Geraghty is reporting from Ankara, Turkey, where the locals keep asking him how something like this could happen in America.







 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 13:01:29 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>As for Ms Bush, so what?
>She has been a model first lady for 5yrs now before she put her foot in her mouth. give her a break. At least she's not Hilary.
>
OOPS, got the wrong Ms. Bush, but that only serves to make your response a little more vulgar.
Referring to Barbara Bush as an idiot only serves to make you appear somewhat intellectually challenged yourself.
The woman is 81yrs old, give her a fucking break !
Besides I like her picture on the dollar bill. LOL


 
addi Posted: Wed Sep 7 14:18:49 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Referring to Barbara Bush as an idiot only serves to make you appear somewhat intellectually challenged yourself.



Give it a rest,hif. Posts degenerating into name calling means it's time for me to stop and take a step back. I'm sure I heard a "Hallelujah!" from the others here on GT.
You can keep putting up your copied and pasted articles till your heart's content. I just no longer have the desire to beat my head against a brick wall on this particular topic. Perhaps you'll find some other willing GTer yearning for an agonizing one on one with you.


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Sep 7 15:17:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Perhaps you'll find some other willing GTer yearning for an agonizing one on one with you.

Normally I would, but you know, obligations and such.


Anyone here written a letter to their Congressman or similar politician about programs your region could be assisting with or at least donated more than your normal amount of charity money?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 15:48:37 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Zacq said:
>Anyone here written a letter to their Congressman or similar politician about programs your region could be assisting with or at least donated more than your normal amount of charity money?
>
I'm sure this is pretty much the same across the country.
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050907/NEWS01/509070412/1008


 
Zacq Posted: Wed Sep 7 16:26:07 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Zacq said:
>>Anyone here written a letter to their Congressman or similar politician about programs your region could be assisting with or at least donated more than your normal amount of charity money?
>>
>I'm sure this is pretty much the same across the country.
>http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050907/NEWS01/509070412/1008

Link doesn't work - 'Operation Timed Out.'


 
beetlebum Posted: Wed Sep 7 16:34:29 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
>>http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050907/NEWS01/509070412/1008
>
>Link doesn't work - 'Operation Timed Out.'

Worked for me. I dunno.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 16:38:01 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Zacq said:
>>http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050907/NEWS01/509070412/1008
>
>Link doesn't work - 'Operation Timed Out.'
>
Prolly just heavy traffic, it works fine when I click on it.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 16:50:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>Referring to Barbara Bush as an idiot only serves to make you appear somewhat intellectually challenged yourself.
>
>
>
>Give it a rest,hif. Posts degenerating into name calling means it's time for me to stop and take a step back. I'm sure I heard a "Hallelujah!" from the others here on GT.
>You can keep putting up your copied and pasted articles till your heart's content. I just no longer have the desire to beat my head against a brick wall on this particular topic. Perhaps you'll find some other willing GTer yearning for an agonizing one on one with you.
>
Hey, It's good to know that at the very least I'm a source of agony for ya !
LOL


 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Sep 7 19:16:52 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Another winner in the incompetence pile:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/06/katrina.charleston/index.html


 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Sep 7 19:19:10 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Oh yeah, and this:
Barbara Bush on the refugees flooding into Texas:

"Almost everyone I’ve talked to says we're going to move to Houston... What I’m hearing which is sort of scary is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this is working very well for them."

Wha... Insensitive much? "this is working very well for them." Thanks Ma Bush


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 19:23:47 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Oh yeah, and this:
>Barbara Bush on the refugees flooding into Texas:
>
>"Almost everyone I’ve talked to says we're going to move to Houston... What I’m hearing which is sort of scary is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality.
>
>"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this is working very well for them."
>
>Wha... Insensitive much? "this is working very well for them." Thanks Ma Bush
>
Hey, Addie already posted this one.
He called her an idiot.
Scroll up a ways to see my response.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 7 19:26:35 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Another winner in the incompetence pile:
>http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/06/katrina.charleston/index.html
>
Yeah, I saw that, I actually thought it was pretty funny.
I saw this morning that they have some 300 private pilots with their own planes and some even paying for their own fuel to fly out some of the survivors and their families.
My guess is that this was one of those guys.


 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Sep 7 22:02:11 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  no. No that's not funny, not even haha funny.
In the last week, this has been the most Americans that died on US since the Civil War. This is essentially fucking with American refugees, more than they have already been fucked with.
And your guess was wrong. It was a government plane.


 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Sep 7 22:07:43 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>OOPS, got the wrong Ms. Bush, but that only serves to make your response a little more vulgar.
>Referring to Barbara Bush as an idiot only serves to make you appear somewhat intellectually challenged yourself.
>The woman is 81yrs old, give her a fucking break !
>Besides I like her picture on the dollar bill. LOL

What she said, no matter the age, is wrong. And she thought she was being nice, which, yeah no.
Those lucky poor refugees get move to Texas. Everybody loves Texas.
"this is working very well for them." When people that age start saying things like that, not only is not okay, you generally put them in a community where their elderly needs can be met by professionals.


 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Sep 7 23:34:17 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  You want to say something is funny, this is haha funny
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/09/07/katrina.zoos/index.html


 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Sep 7 23:35:48 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sorry for being a postwhore. After this I'll stop.
That article, it's "Aquarium drowns; zoo intact"


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Sep 8 06:45:05 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>no. No that's not funny, not even haha funny.
>In the last week, this has been the most Americans that died on US since the Civil War. This is essentially fucking with American refugees, more than they have already been fucked with.
>And your guess was wrong. It was a government plane.
>
Bullshit, it was funny.
No one got hurt, no one was fucked with.
If you can't see even a little bit of humor in this, then you are just looking for things to complain about.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Sep 8 06:49:11 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>
>What she said, no matter the age, is wrong. And she thought she was being nice, which, yeah no.
>Those lucky poor refugees get move to Texas. Everybody loves Texas.
>"this is working very well for them." When people that age start saying things like that, not only is not okay, you generally put them in a community where their elderly needs can be met by professionals.
>
I didn't say she was right, I said she deserves a break.
If you live to be 81yrs old and that's the worse thing you ever say, then you've done well. She was a classy first lady and she inadvertently put her foot in her mouth. So what ?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Sep 8 11:38:05 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Uh, about those levees . . .

September 08, 2005, Greens vs. Levees
Destructive river-management philosophy.

By John Berlau

With all that has happened in the state, it’s understandable that the Louisiana chapter of the Sierra Club may not have updated its website. But when its members get around to it, they may want to change the wording of one item in particular. The site brags that the group is “working to keep the Atchafalaya Basin,” which adjoins the Mississippi River not far from New Orleans, “wet and wild.”

These words may seem especially inappropriate after the breaking of the levee that caused the tragic events in New Orleans last week. But “wet and wild” has a larger significance in light of those events, and so does the group using the phrase. The national Sierra Club was one of several environmental groups who sued the Army Corps of Engineers to stop a 1996 plan to raise and fortify Mississippi River levees.

The Army Corps was planning to upgrade 303 miles of levees along the river in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Arkansas. This was needed, a Corps spokesman told the Baton Rouge, La., newspaper The Advocate, because “a failure could wreak catastrophic consequences on Louisiana and Mississippi which the states would be decades in overcoming, if they overcame them at all.”

But a suit filed by environmental groups at the U.S. District Court in New Orleans claimed the Corps had not looked at “the impact on bottomland hardwood wetlands.” The lawsuit stated, “Bottomland hardwood forests must be protected and restored if the Louisiana black bear is to survive as a species, and if we are to ensure continued support for source population of all birds breeding in the lower Mississippi River valley.” In addition to the Sierra Club, other parties to the suit were the group American Rivers, the Mississippi River Basin Alliance, and the Louisiana, Arkansas and Mississippi Wildlife Federations.

The lawsuit was settled in 1997 with the Corps agreeing to hold off on some work while doing an additional two-year environmental impact study. Whether this delay directly affected the levees that broke in New Orleans is difficult to ascertain.

But it is just one illustration of a destructive river-management philosophy that took hold in the ‘90s, influenced the Clinton administration, and had serious policy consequences. Put simply, it’s impossible to understand the delays in building levees without being aware of the opposition of the environmental groups to dams, levees, and anything that interfered with the “natural” river flow. The group American Rivers, which leads coalitions of eco-groups on river policy, has for years actually called its campaign, “Rivers Unplugged.”

Over the past few years, levees came to occupy the same status for environmental groups as roads in forests — an artificial barrier to nature. They frequently campaigned against levees being built and shored up on the nation’s rivers, including on the Mississippi.

In 2000, American Rivers’ Mississippi River Regional Representative Jeffrey Stein complained in a congressional hearing that the river’s “levees that temporarily protect floodplain farms have reduced the frequency, extent and magnitude of high flows, robbing the river of its ability … to sustain itself.” Similarly, the National Audubon Society, referring specifically to Louisiana, has this statement slamming levees on its website, “Levees have cut off freshwater flows, harming fishing and creating salt water intrusion.” The left-leaning Charles Stewart Mott Foundation, in describing a grant it gave to Environmental Defense, blasted “the numerous levees and canals built on the lower Mississippi River” because “such structures disrupt the natural flows of the Mississippi River’s sediments.”

Some went beyond opposition to building or repairing levees. At an Army Corps of Engineers meeting concerning the Mississippi River in 2002, Audubon official Dan McGuiness even recommended “looking at opportunities to lower or remove levees [emphasis added]” from the river.

The groups argued that the “natural” way would lead to better river management, but it was clear they had other agendas in mind besides flood control. They were concerned because levees were allegedly threatening their beloved exotic animals and plants. In his testimony, American Rivers’s Stein noted that the Mississippi River was home to “double-crested cormorant, rare orchids, and many other species,” which he implied were put at risk by man-made levees.

So far the environmental movement’s role in the events leading to the flooding has been little discussed. One exception is former Rep. Bob Livingston (R., La.), who told Fox News on Saturday that environmentalists were one of the major reasons levee projects were held up.

At this point, there are still questions about the particular levees that broke in New Orleans. Care should be taken about drawing direct conclusions about the causes until there are more facts. But there are some important points that are clear that should put in perspective about levee funding and flood control.

Nearly all flood-control projects — even relatively small ones — are subject to a variety of assessments for effects on wetlands, endangered species, and other environmental concerns. These reviews can be costly and delay projects by years. In the ‘90s, for instance, the Clinton administration’s Environmental Protection Agency required a comprehensive environmental impact statement just to repair a few Colorado River levees that had been destroyed in the floods of 1993.

The Clinton administration would frequently side with environmentalists on flood-control projects, even against local Democrats. The Army Corps of Engineers under Clinton began implementing a planned “spring rise” of the Missouri River that would raise water levels on the Missouri River during part of the year. This was supported by eco-groups, who argued that this restored the river’s natural flows and protected a bird called the piping plover. But farm groups and others said that combined with the ice melting from winter, the project could increase the risk of flooding in river communities and affect more than 1 million acres of productive farmland. Nearly all the Republicans and Democrats in Missouri’s congressional delegation opposed the plan, as did Missouri’s late Democratic governor, Mel Carnahan. But the Clinton administration refused to budge, and this was a major factor in Bush’s carrying of Missouri in 2000.

The Bush administration’s flood-control efforts were often relentlessly opposed by environmental groups, and this opposition was frequently echoed by liberal activists and in the press. Bush kept his promise, and his appointees at the Corps of Engineers have stopped the “spring rise” plan that concerned so many about flooding. Environmentalists launched a barrage of criticism and a series of lawsuits. This was also the case with Bush’s moves to stop the Clinton administration’s plans to breach the dams on the Columbia and Snake Rivers in the northwest. Even though the dams greatly help to control flooding in the region, American Rivers blasted the administration for failing to do enough to save the sockeye salmon native to the region.

Ironically, among those criticizing Bush for his actions to prevent flooding of the Missouri River was the ever-present anti-Bush environmental activist Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He chastised Bush in 2004 for “managing the flow of the Missouri River.” If, before Katrina, Bush had proceeded full-speed ahead and fortified the levees of the Mississippi for a Category 5 hurricane, Kennedy and others of his ilk would very likely have criticized Bush for trying to manage the natural flow of the Mississippi. And it’s a good bet that many of the lefty bloggers now critical of Bush for not reinforcing the levees would have cited Bush’s levee fortification as another way he was despoiling the natural environment.





 
DanSRose Posted: Thu Sep 8 13:01:12 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm stopping arguing this. I'm not giving in, it just seems feckless (a word I've always wanted to use). The circles I like going in are those roundabouts- the pleasure of getting dizzy and driving recklessly put together! I've seen too many horrifying things looking at this then I have ever wanted to.

But, when was the last he actually listened to eco-crazies? Also the return to the natural flooding would have dropped the natural sentiments that the banks need not to get out of hand.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Sep 8 13:55:01 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>
>But, when was the last he actually listened to eco-crazies? Also the return to the natural flooding would have dropped the natural sentiments that the banks need not to get out of hand.
>
It doesn't matter if he listened to them or not. The corps was ready to begin the project and was stopped by the lawsuit.
It doesn't matter now anyway.

I'm not arguing anything anymore, I'm just posting articles that I find interesting and hope someone here might find them interesting as well.


 
Ed Posted: Thu Sep 8 17:49:45 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Has anyone here made a Walking On Sunshine joke yet?

if not, (insert one here)


 
Mesh Posted: Thu Sep 8 20:23:50 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ed said:
>Has anyone here made a Walking On Sunshine joke yet?
>
>if not, (insert one here)

Sort of, but not really.

Tuulikki Mäki said:
>Who did the song "Walking On Sunshine"?


 
Mesh Posted: Thu Sep 8 20:51:30 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  There was alot of bushusuru going on.


 
Zacq Posted: Thu Sep 8 21:50:17 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The link still isn't working, hif.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Sep 8 22:37:32 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Zacq said:
>The link still isn't working, hif.
>
Not a big deal, it was just a link to my hometown newspaper and an article about how we are accomodating a bunch of evacuees and how we can help them out with various types of donations.
We have approx 1500 evacuees here now.
We have set them up temporarily at the fairgrounds and are getting them long term housing as it becomes available.
The city so far has come up with about 400 homes and apartments for them.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Sep 9 08:36:42 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  About the budget slashing by Bush on the flood control for N'awlins, from Charles Krauthamer:

As for the Bush tax cuts, administration budget requests for New Orleans flood control during the five Bush years exceed that of the five preceding Clinton years. The notion that the allegedly missing revenues would have been spent wisely by Congress, targeted precisely to the levees of New Orleans, and reconstruction would have been completed in time, is a threefold fallacy. The argument ends when you realize that, as The Washington Post notes, ``the levees that failed were already completed projects.


 
DanSRose Posted: Fri Sep 9 18:47:18 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Oh, about the school buses (DanSRose = glutton for punishment- 2 sins at once! mmmm... sin)
School buses are owned by private companies, who in turn, hire drivers. They are contracted out to the boards of ed in cities. This is case in NO. The bus companies didn't run because they were private.
Public buses were running from 5 AM to when the storm hit, and were taking people to evacuation shelters all day.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 14 15:16:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Oh, about the school buses (DanSRose = glutton for punishment- 2 sins at once! mmmm... sin)
>School buses are owned by private companies, who in turn, hire drivers. They are contracted out to the boards of ed in cities. This is case in NO. The bus companies didn't run because they were private.
>Public buses were running from 5 AM to when the storm hit, and were taking people to evacuation shelters all day.
>
Actually (after it was too late), the governor used her authority to comandeer those buses, but couldn't find any willing drivers.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Sep 14 15:17:15 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  This helps put some things in perspective:

http://www.nationalreview.com/novak/novak200509140828.asp


 
Ed Posted: Sun Jan 29 22:46:39 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>>Who did the song "Walking On Sunshine"?


Katrina and The Waves!


 



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