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Paris is burning
FN Posted: Mon Nov 7 17:01:02 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  It isn't that dramatic, but I know that the way to get the plebs' attention is to use a dramatic one liner.

The question is: what do non-european people get to hear about this?

And what are your general thoughts on it if you have any.


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Nov 7 17:44:38 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I read this morning that there were isolated incidents now in Belgium and Germany.

I've seen this coming for a while. It was only a matter of time before it happened.


 
addi Posted: Mon Nov 7 17:47:26 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I've only heard about the effects of the rioting. Not so much about the causes..which is a little strange. The only thing I heard is that it was caused by two boys being chased by police into an electrical switching station and they were killed because of it. But that was only the spark that set things off...because of the poverty and profiling of people iving in those poorer suburbs of Paris.
Is that right?


 
jennemmer Posted: Tue Nov 8 00:25:00 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I didn't hear about it at all until the 7th day. I understand that it was started because two teens died while hiding from police but not anything about why they felt they had to hide. I know that there are demands that the person in charge of the police resign.

I get the feeling that this is frustration and rage boiling over and wouldn't be guaranteed to end regardless of a resignation. I don't think current policies are helping matters, however.


 
antartica Posted: Tue Nov 8 02:33:09 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  hear about what?
i generally try to keep away from any form of news unless it's local, or concerns the country i'm going to visit...

no news is good news...


 
Howitzer Posted: Tue Nov 8 03:39:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  As far as I know addi has all the info that is out.. so there is nothing to be said about the cause of the two people's hiding and subsequent deaths besides that they happened..


 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 8 07:13:35 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I made a point of watching NPR news last night and learned a little more about it. Nothing about the initial incident, but they interviewed several of the people rioting and it seemed to boil down to the fact that they feel the french citizens are treating them like crap. One man (looked middle eastern) said he was a 3rd generation frenchman, but was still treated like an alien at stores and by the police.


 
Posted: Tue Nov 8 07:37:11 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Paris is burning?

She must still be fuming about the falling out with Nicole Ritchie.


 
mat_j Posted: Tue Nov 8 09:07:12 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Been following it for 12 days, starting to get sick of the LaHaine comparisons too, i have a friend in Marseilles haven't had a chance to speak to him yet but his MSN name is updated daily giving accounts of whats been going on there.

I was begining to wonder if it would spread to the island but i think British Euro ignorance in general is preventing copycat tactics being applied. The under classes here would probably think it was just a bunch of whinging frogs doing their usual thing.

Obviously it's a fucking disaster and no doubt British people will use it (actually they are already) to take a dig at the republic, not that we're any better.

I don't know a wealth a about Villepin but i'd always assumed he was alright, Sarkozy is an ass though, British Politics are full of people like him, fact and figure readers who get so riled up about the things they see they can't help but to mouth off without thinking of the consequences; of course that's just my humble opinion. He's also become a nice scapegoat for a wider variety of problems- The ban on headscarves much discussed on this site, non whites being twice as likely to be unemployed, failed intergration policies etc.

I read in the paper yesterday there were only two ways this whole thing could end- in tears or in rain.

"A tragedy might bring the kids to their senses. Or it might not. Police meanwhile have been praying for a downpour, which has usually ended outbreaks in the past. The forecast for this week is fine and dry all over France."1

If only we could transport weather, there's enough rain in Wales this week to bring peace to the middle east!

Mat out



1 The Independent: Independent News & Media Ltd. Monday 7th November 2005.


 
FN Posted: Tue Nov 8 09:45:27 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Baiscly, the thing is this: 2 kids were running away from the police, they hid in an electricity cabin and got electrocuted, which sparked (pun intended) this whole thing. I guess that means that from now on the police isn't supposed to chase suspects anymore if they're not white, because otherwise they're racists trying to get the guys killed.

It all resulted in the "minority" starting to riot and burning cars (100's of them every night, with the record being 1400 during a single night at this point).

The police retalliated with tear gas and all, and one tear gas grenade got into a mosque, which is now being used as an excuse to continue the riots.

It started in the suburbs of Paris but has been spreading out since then, with some seperated events in Berlin for example too. Here in Belgium, police has been monitoring the arrival of a lot of cars with french license plates "visiting" in the problem areas, which is a sign that some of those "people" might be looking to stir shit up here as well. There have been a few incidents already, as in 5 cars being burned, and 1 headquarters of an extreme right party being attacked with molotov cocktails, but that's it.

When you see reports with these kids who're doing it, it seems pretty clear they don't know what the hell they're doing and just feel like they're having a field day.

One of them for example said this: "we want to go out, travel, have a car, whatever, just like every other kid in the world. I mean, I know there are people who're much worse off in the world, but here in France, we're the worst off."

To him and others like him or who think he's right I say: go fuck yourself.

They don't just burn cars, they also burn public buildings and even private companies, leaving dozens of families without paycheques at the end of the month.

Shots have been fired at the police as well.

More than half of the French population (from recent polls I've seen yesterday) thinks that the army should be sent in.

Can you imagine that? A European country having to use its own army to break riots in its capital in this day and age, all because some fuckers think they have the right to anything at all.


mat_j said:
>Sarkozy is an ass though, British Politics are full of people like him, fact and figure readers who get so riled up about the things they see they can't help but to mouth off without thinking of the consequences; of course that's just my humble opinion.

All he said, basicly, is that those rioters were scum/vermin/whatever you want to call it, and that he was planning on cleaning them out with a high pressure cleaner. Was he wrong?

>He's also become a nice scapegoat for a wider variety of problems- The ban on headscarves much discussed on this site, non whites being twice as likely to be unemployed, failed intergration policies etc.

Ah, but are not all integration policies doomed to fail?

Look at what's happening in France right now, look at what happened in Holland, I see it here in Belgium as well, or take a look in London (seen this myself) where some streets are lined with more or less exclusively arab shops where the name is in arabic and a small english subscript, if they even have the english translation stated. And I don't think the US is a shining beacon either when it comes to "integration".

It doesn't work anywhere, no matter how you try and get to it.

>I read in the paper yesterday there were only two ways this whole thing could end- in tears or in rain.
>
>"A tragedy might bring the kids to their senses. Or it might not. Police meanwhile have been praying for a downpour, which has usually ended outbreaks in the past. The forecast for this week is fine and dry all over France."1

I find this rather interesting actually :o)

A guy has died already by the way, a 61 year old man who was attacked because he tried to put out a fire in a trash container and got beaten into a coma. He died today.


 
Nikki Posted: Tue Nov 8 11:25:16 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Vive la France!!! :-)


 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 8 13:10:54 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:


>To him and others like him or who think he's right I say: go fuck yourself.

I'm sure every one of the "minorities" involved in this are just bad people, looking for some way to trash the city for the hell of it. I'm also sure the average French citizen has been nothing but fair, accepting, and tolerant of all the ethnic minorities polluting their pure french way of life.

Same thing happened here (several times, in fact). Ignorant minorities rioting against us whites just for the hell of it, basically cuz they're stupid, lazy, and hateful.

*The world would be such a better place if we could just somehow separate all the different nationalities, religions, ethnic groups...and never have to deal with each others differences face to face. We could give all those rioters in Paris part of Antarctica. It may be cold, but it's clean...and there's penguins there. They're delicious!

*just as long as us white male americans were given the best jobs, best land, best schools, and best All-American fare resturants. "Sushi?! We don't need no stinkin' sushi!"



 
Mark Posted: Tue Nov 8 13:48:31 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  To start with an understatement, I think the rioters are overreacting. The two boys hid in an electricity cabin and peeps are angry because they died. By the way… On the news I do here the claims that the police denies chasing them.

Sorry to say, but this shows how stupid the mass is. Anyway… with all that happening in France and that incidents happening in Germany and Belgium, I hope that it is contained really fast even if the need to call in the troops. Protesting against a government is one thing, but this is ridiculous.

Although off topic I need to say this:
It strikes me as odd that every time people of ethnic minorities are, in their opinion, attacked it is discrimination. As a white person I need to take into account every bad action my country took in times I did not even exist. The apartheid or slavery for example (and indeed slave trade was “invented” by the Dutch). But please do not take into account everything their culture did.

I hear Moroccans adolescents talk about taking over Holland. In Den Helder (as city close to my village) Antilleans have “taken over” parts of the city. I’ve heard Muslims speak about Baghdad and that their culture is older than ours. Not only are they wrong (although to indeed beat the Americans in the age of their culture), the culture they mean is gone since about 800 AD.

These some reasons why I stand against herding, it makes people stupid. And that is something you can see in France. They want to destroy this society, but they do not realize that without this society they cannot exist since they cannot maintain a society for themselves.

After I’ve said all that I do need to make an exception and that is in the direction to all the people I’ve met that where of a ethnic minority but I met at my school. For those the above doesn’t entirely count.

Oh and sorry for the lack of structure in my rant ;)


 
FN Posted: Tue Nov 8 14:00:04 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>I'm sure every one of the "minorities" involved in this are just bad people, looking for some way to trash the city for the hell of it. I'm also sure the average French citizen has been nothing but fair, accepting, and tolerant of all the ethnic minorities polluting their pure french way of life.

Basicly, yeah.

If they don't like it here, tough luck, go back to your own country and see how long you live there instead of living off welfare here.

>Same thing happened here (several times, in fact). Ignorant minorities rioting against us whites just for the hell of it, basically cuz they're stupid, lazy, and hateful.

Basicly, yeah.

>*The world would be such a better place if we could just somehow separate all the different nationalities, religions, ethnic groups...and never have to deal with each others differences face to face. We could give all those rioters in Paris part of Antarctica. It may be cold, but it's clean...and there's penguins there. They're delicious!

True.

Perhaps not in Antarctica, I mean, what have the inuits ever done to us?

Problem is that most of their "countries of origin" don't even want to take them back.


 
FN Posted: Tue Nov 8 14:03:25 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  As a side note: I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule who do act like they are supposed to.

Nobody ever asked them to be on their knees thanking us for taking them out of the misery they come from, all Europe in general ever asked was to shut up and behave in return for letting them live here, and they can't even do that and on top of it are under the misconception that they have anything more than general human rights here.

France, Belgium, or any other nation, doesn't *have* to give these people anything.


 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 8 14:21:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I understand where you and wolffie are coming from. If my neighborhood was trashed because some ethnic group didn't like the cops and decided to burn and loot the neighborhood in retaliation...I'd be very pissed too.
My gut just gets all knotted up when I read statements that seem to include the entire group/minority as bad apples.
I also think that if you lived in Belgium, but came their as an infant from Turkey (for example), and had for 16 years had to put up with feelings of being second class person by native Belgians..your outlook may be a little different on this matter.
You can't throw everything into the same pile when you do laundry. Things have to be separated, or you end up with pink boxers. You can't throw every disturbance into the same historical pile, and say they're all good, or all bad. If the black South Africans hadn't demonstrated against aparthide who knows where they would be today. It was certainly justified in my eyes. I don't live in France. I don't really know the living situation of those claiming to be mistreated. Therefore it's tough for me to really know what to say about it. I think the only thing I can say with some degree of certaintly is that BOTH sides have/are guilty of doing some stupid things to make it the tinderbox it is today.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Nov 8 14:28:15 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I've known in the past some who openly despise western European culture and equate it with Satan, and intentionally segregated themselves from the society that they moved into because they wanted no part of it. Which always made me think why if you hate everything about it did you choose this place in particular. And even openly spoke about destroying it and making it into a Caliphate or whatever. That said, it was mostly the new immigrants I noticed that about. Most of the ones born in the country or moved there as young children were more willing to adapt and be part of the broader society, and for them it is unfair that they have discrimination against them.


 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 8 14:47:28 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  additional thought:

Inuits live in the north I believe. To my knowledge Antarctica has been unihabited for a long time. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

and extreme poverty and religious fanaticism will be our undoing


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Nov 8 14:50:36 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  What we need now is an extraterrestrial invasion of the entire planet. What Cold War leader touched on that subject? I can't remember.


 
FN Posted: Tue Nov 8 15:18:56 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>I understand where you and wolffie are coming from. If my neighborhood was trashed because some ethnic group didn't like the cops and decided to burn and loot the neighborhood in retaliation...I'd be very pissed too.

It's not only that, I (and many others with me) have been saying this since the first time I had the capacity to form complex though: integration with huge cultural differences simply does not work.

I don't like other cultures, so there.

Adapt or get out. Or even better: don't even come in.

>My gut just gets all knotted up when I read statements that seem to include the entire group/minority as bad apples.

From personal experience, the ones that behave are the exceptions, not the other way around.

I don't care what the grounds of their misbehaviour are, nothing gives them the right to bite the hand which feeds them, and nobody forces them to stay.

>I also think that if you lived in Belgium, but came their as an infant from Turkey (for example), and had for 16 years had to put up with feelings of being second class person by native Belgians..your outlook may be a little different on this matter.

Perhaps it is. But again: don't like it? Feel free to leave. That goes for everybody, not only immigrants.

>You can't throw everything into the same pile when you do laundry. Things have to be separated, or you end up with pink boxers. You can't throw every disturbance into the same historical pile, and say they're all good, or all bad. If the black South Africans hadn't demonstrated against aparthide who knows where they would be today. It was certainly justified in my eyes.

Yeah, and see what's happening now. Close to civil war as the native south africans start claiming back their lands even though it has been in the hands of the Boers for generations and those who claim their land back hardly ever have any proof to back it up.

Which results in murders all over the place and general harassment to make the people leave.

I'd like to see what would happen in the US if the native americans started murdering people claiming that they want their land back.

>I don't live in France. I don't really know the living situation of those claiming to be mistreated. Therefore it's tough for me to really know what to say about it. I think the only thing I can say with some degree of certaintly is that BOTH sides have/are guilty of doing some stupid things to make it the tinderbox it is today.

They might not have great lives, but I'm guessing it is better than dying of hunger or being tortured to death.

And if it isn't, again, everybody is free to leave when they think that's better.

You have no rights to anything (except ofcourse your human rights) when you come begging in another country. You should be happy you get anything at all.

They're revolting against the very thing that allows them to have a decent life. As in housing, education, comfort, healthcare, whatever. What do they expect to get?



I'll say this: cliché's and prejudice doesn't appear out of thin air.


 
FN Posted: Tue Nov 8 15:21:55 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  My mistake, mixed Alaska/the arctic up with antarctica for a moment there.


 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 8 15:57:08 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  my philosophy summed up in a nutshell:

Basic human dignity and worth. Everyone is intrinsically equal. The black tribesman in africa, still living in primative settings, and the relatively wealthy "civilized" white American male. Neither has more value than the other in the end.

Separatism breeds fear, misunderstanding, and violence in this world. I hate it when blacks exclusively associate with other blacks, and when whites exclusively associate with other whites. The world has changed dramatically over the past century. We are literally turning into a global humanity. Isolationalism is no longer possible. If we can't rise above ourselves and attempt to live together (including all races)in some kind of peace then we've already lost the war, and we don't deserve this planet...the beasts and birds in the forest do.


 
FN Posted: Tue Nov 8 16:04:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>my philosophy summed up in a nutshell:
>
>Basic human dignity and worth. Everyone is intrinsically equal. The black tribesman in africa, still living in primative settings, and the relatively wealthy "civilized" white American male. Neither has more value than the other in the end.

I don't think anything has been said about *american* males, but whatever floats your boat.

I don't think all people are equal. When you start fucking with other people's stuff when you have no right to make any demands at all, and you think anarchy is the solution or you dislike the country you're in even though you have the capability to take a plane and go where ever it is better, yet you decide to stay and ruin it for everybody, then no, you're not equal to somebody who does what he/she feels like he/she should be doing without hindering anybody else in any way.

>Separatism breeds fear, misunderstanding, and violence in this world. I hate it when blacks exclusively associate with other blacks, and when whites exclusively associate with other whites. The world has changed dramatically over the past century. We are literally turning into a global humanity. Isolationalism is no longer possible. If we can't rise above ourselves and attempt to live together (including all races)in some kind of peace then we've already lost the war, and we don't deserve this planet...the beasts and birds in the forest do.

Yeah, in a perfect world, everybody loves everybody.

I'll tell you this: a multicultural society is just as likely to work as free love or communism. It simply goes against human nature.


 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 8 17:10:06 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>I don't think anything has been said about *american* males, but whatever floats your boat.

Well, geez. I could have included every nationality on the planet if that would have been better for you. I used "american" only as an example.

>I don't think all people are equal.

I know. That view has come through loud and clear.
: )


>Yeah, in a perfect world, everybody loves everybody.

Pefection is not attainable, and I would never say it was. I'm going more for the effort here; a willingness for people to try to understand each other and live in close proximity without killing each other. We will always fall short, because we are human, but the alternative of just throwing up our hands and resigning ourselves to feeling that "If you're not like me, then go to hell!" to me is much worse, and not the kind of world I want for our children.




 
FN Posted: Tue Nov 8 17:32:24 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Well, geez. I could have included every nationality on the planet if that would have been better for you. I used "american" only as an example.

Perhaps. Or perhaps the fact that you added american as the pinacle of civilization shows that you're not the equality activist you claim to be ;o)

>"If you're not like me, then go to hell!" to me is much worse, and not the kind of world I want for our children.

I think you're in for a nasty surprise then.

I have no desire in understanding somebody who doesn't want to adopt to my culture when they decide to come and live within it.


Let me rephrase that.

They don't have to adopt to it per se, as in the entire world should be like Western Europe, like I don't think democracy should be forced upon the middle east for example.

I'm saying that if they are *here*, as in somewhere else than where they originate from, they should live by the rules that apply *here*.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm extremely interested in just about anything, all I do in my free time when I'm not going out is basicly spent reading/watching/learning about anything I can get my hands on, which includes other cultures.

Which doesn't say I believe that all cultures are equal either.

I think equality, other than mathematical equality, like perfection only exists in theory.

I don't have anything against other cultures themselves, and they can in fact be very interesting, seems pretty obvious.

I do have something against people who come here, to my culture, and think that I have to take theirs into account while they're on my turf.

Perhaps that's where the world is going, but not if I have anything to do with it.

For example, I think it's heinous that some people want to have arabic languages institutionalised as official languages, or start islam schools in Europe, or want islamic/immigrant political parties.

Or non-catholic holidays, even though I'm not a religious person I do recognize the importance it has had in the past, and how it is locked into my culture.






When I talk to people about this, I always try and explain it like this:

If anybody comes to my house, they don't get in unless they take off their shoes because I respect the fact that my mother spends so much time and effort into keeping our house clean, and I don't want anybody to mess with that.

If they want to keep their shoes on, that's fine with me, but they're not coming into my house.

This is what other cultures do when they expect you to take them into account:

At my house, we don't take our shoes off, so fuck you, and they step in with their shoes covered in mud.

It's basic etiquette, you conform to the rules of your host, not the other way around.


 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 8 17:47:48 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Off to play some tennis now. Hope I get to play against some minority so I can kick their ass
: )
Will continue this enlightening conversation later.


 
beetlebum Posted: Tue Nov 8 19:40:49 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>What we need now is an extraterrestrial invasion of the entire planet. What Cold War leader touched on that subject? I can't remember.

Are you talking about Ronald Reagan? He gave some crazy speech once about how he believe that if aliens were attacking the planet, the human race would unite and fight as one, or something like that.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Nov 8 19:53:16 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:
>
>
>Are you talking about Ronald Reagan? He gave some crazy speech once about how he believe that if aliens were attacking the planet, the human race would unite and fight as one, or something like that.


AHA! Thats it. Beetlebum is my saviour.


 
beetlebum Posted: Tue Nov 8 19:56:27 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I was in Marseille on vacation and stopped going out entirely at night with my girlfriends if we didn't have a male with us, because we were physically harrassed as well as verbally by young Arab males night after night and it was fucking scary. They are really aggressive and not nice.

I was spit on quite a few times by these boys for being both a girl and white (as were my friends) and that was in the middle of the day. I wasn't wearing fancy clothing or presenting myself in any special way, except that since I'm not Muslim, I wasn't wearing any sort of religious garb.

I will never go back to Marseille.

I think that in France, the prejudice has be borne from a whole bunch of complexities, some having to do with the French system and its inability to assimilate immigrant populations, and others having to do with a general religious divide.

I will say this: I don't think that the best way to deal with oppression is violence; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was onto something. By acting this way, these youths are only further dividing the French.

And I don't mean to sound ignorant, but so much of it does come to do cultural differences that will never be reconciled. My crazy french mom put it this way: France would not be France if the majority of women walking down the street were covered from head to toe and deferred to their male counterpart, and the women that decided to dress in jeans and a teeshirt were spat on... which is why she continues to rail against the Arab population. She refuses to support female oppression of any kind, whether or not it is condoned by religion, and she appreciates her country's religious history even though she does support the separation of Church and State.

I'm not saying she's right, but I think there are two sides to every story.


 
beetlebum Posted: Tue Nov 8 20:03:00 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Instead of saying "they," I should have said "the ones I encountered" were really aggressive and not nice.

Basically, my point was, both sides are to blame for this mess, because there exists rampant hate on both sides, and this has been stewing for decades and no one has dealt with it.




 
Mesh Posted: Tue Nov 8 20:24:45 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:
>
>I will say this: I don't think that the best way to deal with oppression is violence; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was onto something. By acting this way, these youths are only further dividing the French.
>


Exactly. In this day and age, indiscriminate rampaging, burning peoples cars, small businesses, clinics, community centers, daycares, etc, is not the way to overcome. It will just further harden the opinion that the minority is a violence prone, uncontrollable group. It won't win you any friends or sympathy.


 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 8 21:48:21 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:

>I think that in France, the prejudice has be borne from a whole bunch of complexities, some having to do with the French system and its inability to assimilate immigrant populations, and others having to do with a general religious divide.


...perhaps the French population in general just can't stand anyone that isn't French (particularly in Paris).


 
kurohyou Posted: Tue Nov 8 22:51:34 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Wolffie said:
>To start with an understatement, I think the rioters are overreacting. The two boys hid in an electricity cabin and peeps are angry because they died. By the way… On the news I do here the claims that the police denies chasing them.

I'll preface this by saying that I don't really know much about what is going on over there, or much about all the politics or policies behind all of it.

My inital response matches that of Wolffie, it seems as though they are overreacting. Its my guess, that this is a catalyst for igniting something which has been festering, and perhaps ignored for quite sometime. People are social animals, and when groups feel they are devalued, tensions are bound to rise.

I think violence in general is a poor way of getting one's point across, but it would seem as though these people think that is the only way they can be heard. I'm not in their shoes, so its hard for me to say.

It would seem that order of some sort needs to be established and quickly before things get too much further out of hand. The whole situation seems pretty sad and I feel bad for all parties involved. I hope they find a quick resolution, and I hope that all of you on here who are in that area and who have friends and family in the affect areas are safe.

For what it's worth...


 
beetlebum Posted: Wed Nov 9 03:06:57 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>beetlebum said:
>
>>I think that in France, the prejudice has be borne from a whole bunch of complexities, some having to do with the French system and its inability to assimilate immigrant populations, and others having to do with a general religious divide.
>
>
>...perhaps the French population in general just can't stand anyone that isn't French (particularly in Paris).

That's not true. Spanish, portuguese, vietnamese, and chinese (to name a few) immigrant groups have integrated pretty well, I'd say. Even the polish immigrant population is doing better.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 03:49:37 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Meh, I wonder if it will result in a civil race war.




And I agree with beetlebum by the way, the ones causing all the trouble aren't the chinese, polish, spanish, portuguese, whatever. I don't see what makes them different immigrants. If they can behave why can' the others.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Nov 9 04:15:54 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4677d0c4-508a-11da-bbd7-0000779e2340.html


Then what the fuck is the rioht law even for??? Why wasn't it abolished years ago if it shouldn't be used in a situation like this?


13 Days of rioting, and people are attacking him for imposing a RIOT LAW? I can't believe it wasn't put into effect after the second night. So they should just sit back, and let it fizzle out itself, whether it takes three days or another two weeks? What kind of message do they want to get across? If you think you've been wronged its ok to go on a rampage, we won't try to stop you?


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Nov 9 04:21:00 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  “It is a form of discrimination that will be very badly received.”


Baffling. A law put into effect to try and restore order to the nation is discrimination. What else shall we condemn as discrimination, while we're at it? How about mugging people? You're poor, so you mug some college student for their money. To try and stop or punish you for it would be discrimination.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 9 07:54:50 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:

>That's not true. Spanish, portuguese, vietnamese, and chinese (to name a few) immigrant groups have integrated pretty well, I'd say. Even the polish immigrant population is doing better.

Granted I don't know France as well as you do, but are you stating here that the French are welcoming with open arms Spanish, Portuguese, Vietnamese, Chinese, and Polish immigrants into their borders? Why do i find that hard to believe?
Accepting and tolerating are two entirely different matters. Something tells me that the majority of the "pure" French citizenry privately (or openly) despise any non-native group coming en masse to pollute and dillute their proud cultural heritage...but perhaps what I've heard and read from others, and my own personal biases against those snooty french are tainting my opinion.
: )



 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 09:08:36 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
> “It is a form of discrimination that will be very badly received.”
>
>
>Baffling. A law put into effect to try and restore order to the nation is discrimination. What else shall we condemn as discrimination, while we're at it? How about mugging people? You're poor, so you mug some college student for their money. To try and stop or punish you for it would be discrimination.

Fucking socialists. No more excuses.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 09:11:34 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Granted I don't know France as well as you do, but are you stating here that the French are welcoming with open arms Spanish, Portuguese, Vietnamese, Chinese, and Polish immigrants into their borders? Why do i find that hard to believe?

Not with open arms, I don't think that's necessary, but they can come in.

>Accepting and tolerating are two entirely different matters. Something tells me that the majority of the "pure" French citizenry privately (or openly) despise any non-native group coming en masse to pollute and dillute their proud cultural heritage...

Not only the cultural heritage, but everything basicly.

>but perhaps what I've heard and read from others, and my own personal biases against those snooty french are tainting my opinion.
>: )

Yeah addi, I'm sure it's just the French, I mean, it's not like anybody in the US has anything against hispanics or black people, and I'm sure you wouldn't mind living in areas where less than 1% is white.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 9 09:22:01 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Yeah addi, I'm sure it's just the French, I mean, it's not like anybody in the US has anything against hispanics or black people, and I'm sure you wouldn't mind living in areas where less than 1% is white.


We're discussing the french problem here, not all the U.S. ones.
Think about my past posts. Do I critisize and bring up American shortcomings? Answer: All the fucking time.
I am keeping to the theme of the thread. When we're on a U.S. bashing thread you can be sure that I'm put in my two cents.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 09:39:20 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  This is what political correctness has given the world.

When you say even though 10-15-20% of the population is foreign, but they represent over 50% of the people in jail, it must mean they're discriminated against in court. Dare to say that it might also have something to do with the fact that they just commit more crimes, and you're an uneducated racist.

They're mostly unemployed and poorly educated. They must be discriminated against in school and on the workfloor (even though they get social security for sitting on their asses doing nothing). Dare to say that they'd rather hang out on the street and be a slacker than study and get a job, and you're an uneducated racist.


Truth be told, there is ofcourse discimination going on, I'd be the last to deny that, but who can blame anybody for that anyway, and who's to say this *discrimination* is "wrong"? That's how the world works.

If anything at all, I'd say the positive discrimination is what doing the damage.

But even taking discrimination into account, the statistics for unemployment, crime rates, lack of education, etc. simply do not fit in my opinion.

The education part might be different in some countries, and I only know the system of my own country well enough to make a good obersavation of it, but what it comes down to is this: even the poorest guy in Belgium can get the same diploma as the richest if he decides to study, because of the (very decent) scholarships the state provides for the low incomes and the general child support system, so no, here lack of education isn't an excuse.

I don't think it is that different in France.





And even if you drop all of this, nothing justifies what's happening right now.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 09:41:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>We're discussing the french problem here, not all the U.S. ones.

I'm talking about Western Europe as a whole, with France in particular at the moment.

I might have gotten the wrong idea from the previous post. If I did, you can consider the reply scratched from the record books. If not, it stands ;o)


 
beetlebum Posted: Wed Nov 9 09:48:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>beetlebum said:
>
>>That's not true. Spanish, portuguese, vietnamese, and chinese (to name a few) immigrant groups have integrated pretty well, I'd say. Even the polish immigrant population is doing better.
>
>Granted I don't know France as well as you do, but are you stating here that the French are welcoming with open arms Spanish, Portuguese, Vietnamese, Chinese, and Polish immigrants into their borders? Why do i find that hard to believe?
>Accepting and tolerating are two entirely different matters. Something tells me that the majority of the "pure" French citizenry privately (or openly) despise any non-native group coming en masse to pollute and dillute their proud cultural heritage...but perhaps what I've heard and read from others, and my own personal biases against those snooty french are tainting my opinion.
>: )
>

Maybe so. Because in my class I had one native Spanish kid, one native British kid, some French-Chinese students, and a two really hot French-Italian guys.

They seemed to be getting along just fine. (The French-Chinese students had Chinese parents, so they were second generation.)

Granted,I cannot speak for every Frenchman/woman, but I didn't notice any major prejudices in those areas.




 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 11:56:38 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://people.howstuffworks.com/riot-control.htm

Fun to read.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 9 13:34:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:

>Maybe so. Because in my class I had one native Spanish kid, one native British kid, some French-Chinese students, and a two really hot French-Italian guys.

>They seemed to be getting along just fine.

Indulge me for the sake of discussion and allow me to play Devil's advocate here...

Heinz moves from Koln, Germany to Bushwack, Texas for a year as an exchange student. Upon his return back home he finds himself in a discussion about George Bush. Manfred states that Bush is really unpopular with the American public now. Heinz then responds by stating that, unlike Manfred, he had lived in America and among all the people he met and went to school with there, almost every one of them was strongly supporting Bush. He hadn't noticed anyone significantly complaining of the president's job, and he had first hand experience to back up that claim.

Heinz's conclusions about how America feels about Bush shouldn't be applied to the country as a whole...only to Bushwack, TX.

My personal negative experiences as a student visiting France shouldn't be applied to the French people as a whole...at least with any statistical validity.

Your experiences observing how other students of various ethnic backgrounds related to each other during your time in france can't be applied to the attitudes of the whole country today. It was too narrow a microcosum to extract any significant conclusions from.

Yes?
No?
Shutup, Addi?

Discuss





 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 9 13:51:07 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Good point Addie, also, I think it's fair to assume that most of the youths involved, if not all, never spent a lot of time in class and never will.
Unless it's a bomb making class.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Nov 9 13:55:52 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Good point Addie, also, I think it's fair to assume that most of the youths involved, if not all, never spent a lot of time in class and never will.
>Unless it's a bomb making class.


LOL thats horrible.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:06:30 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Yes?
>No?
>Shutup, Addi?
>
>Discuss

No, since I'm backing it up, as a citizen in Western Europe, the statistics do back it up, and I wouldn't really compare Bushwack to Marseille either.


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:13:32 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  For me when two people have equal qualifications they should get an equal shot for a job. If this doesn't happen then I would classify this as discrimination.

The grey areas come into play when one group has better and easier access in aquiring these qualifications. If you happen to be born in the country you're not going to have the same number of options for High School classes as someone in the city where the schools are larger and have more teachers and a greater number of other students who are interested in taking the same class. This isn't taken to be discrimination against rural students because the requirements to get into university are set so that all rural students have access to the required classes.

It would be discrimination in my mind if there was a 'city driving' course or something silly like that required because then people from the country would either be left without the qualifications or would have to do more work and spend more money to make sure they were able to take it.

Some people will be lazy. Likely there would be more rural students who wouldn't qualify for university than urban students. Discrimination gets worse when people begin to assume that because so few people from the country have made the effort then if you're from the country you are obviously lazy. Then the people who have done the extra work are still being labeled the same as if they hadn't.

With this case eventually people wouldn't know where you came from and the playing field would level off. With immigrants however you are stuck with a label all of your life, whether you deserve it or not.

Bottom line, whenever we lump people together based on looks or origin or heritage we risk discrimination even if some of the time it is well deserved.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:17:59 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>and I wouldn't really compare Bushwack to Marseille either.

If you thought the point of my post was to compare Marseille with Bushwack...then you missed my point entirely.


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:18:11 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I guess the point of my last reply is that an effort should be made so that people have opportunities to reach the least that they need to get by. The Native reserve situation in Canada is a prime example of this. Sure there is a large Native population unemployed, yes many are living off of the government but the schooling they have been given access to is so abismal that getting any sort of decent qualification is very difficult. Plus they are placed well away from most places of employment to boot.

It's a case where the stereotypes are often true, yet discrimination is still the problem.

I don't know about France but I could see there being a lot of pent up frustration.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:20:30 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  jennemmer said:

>Bottom line, whenever we lump people together based on looks or origin or heritage we risk discrimination even if some of the time it is well deserved.

A voice of reason from the northland

*it's just too bad it had to come from a lazy canadian

: )


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:31:12 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I agree with most of what you're saying, jen, except for the fact that "the rural kids" don't have to take any "extra courses".

I have no problem with immigrants who go to school/have a job, no problem at all, as long as they behave. Plain and simple fact is that when you go to uni, there are hardly any there. And those who are usually drop out after a few months.

I also think it's funny that those who cry loudest for more jobs and claim to feel discriminated because they don't have any are those who would be the last to get off their asses when they could get one.

But stirring shit up and blaming everybody else for being the loser you are and feel sorry for yourself is fun, I'm sure, especially when you can run amok and still convince yourself and others that you're the victim.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:32:26 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>If you thought the point of my post was to compare Marseille with Bushwack...then you missed my point entirely.

I know what the point was, I'm just saying that Marseille isn't exactly a small and forgotten about French city that is seperated from the rest of the country. Paris isn't either methinks.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:35:38 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>But stirring shit up and blaming everybody else for being the loser you are and feel sorry for yourself is fun, I'm sure, especially when you can run amok and still convince yourself and others that you're the victim.
>
Yep, spoken like a damn fine republican.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:40:27 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Christophe said:
>>But stirring shit up and blaming everybody else for being the loser you are and feel sorry for yourself is fun, I'm sure, especially when you can run amok and still convince yourself and others that you're the victim.
>>
>Yep, spoken like a damn fine republican.


Chances are I'd lean towards the republican side, but I'd never vote for Bush or against my own interests though.

Give me some good old center-right (european) liberalism.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:40:30 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  So, I bet this has made it quite likely that National Front and Jean-Marie Le Pen will be making some gains in the next elections.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:43:38 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Don't forget all the other extreme right parties throughout the rest of Western Europe.

Here, extreme right is a joke basicly. They get about 25% of the votes yet they're all scum, basicly.

A perfect example of the double failure of democracy.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:44:01 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Too many basicly's, basicly.


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Nov 9 15:53:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>I agree with most of what you're saying, jen, except for the fact that "the rural kids" don't have to take any "extra courses".

I don't pretend to know the situation. I've never been there to see it and I've never really been in a situation where I've been judged for looking a certain way. The ones who try and still have troubles have a right to be angry.. but not the right to burn things. The ones who don't even try don't have much right to complain.

The only problem is that it is impossible to know all of the details even if you live nearby. If they are angry they probably think there is a reason and trying to figure out if there is or not and to what degree is the only way really fix the situation. Stopping the violence is the first step but it doesn't accomplish much if it just leads to more resentment.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 16:10:04 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  What it comes down to is this: they decide not to adopt the rules and culture present here but want to keep their own.

People here don't feel like they have to adapt to anybody who is here and is living a better life because of it. I don't see why they should, at all, either.

It's not only the riots that people here are getting sick off, it is also the harassment and nuisance these people bring along in general.

Example? A girl can't walk home anymore on her own at night, because if she runs into a group of our multicultural friends, she'll be harrassed, be it verbally or physicly. It is almost a fact and a certainty, and I don't use the word "certainty" lightly.

When you go out and there's a fight, 95% of the time, there are "foreign" kids involved. And where I live, the percentages of foreign people are very low compared to Brussels for example.

In Antwerp, one of the biggiest cities in Flanders, 58% of the kids under 18 don't speak Flemish or Dutch at home.

Guess which city has the highest crime rates and the biggest problems.

It has even come to a point that most clubs simply don't let you in anymore if they don't know who you are and you look like you're not from Belgium.

You have to imagine how bad it has to be before they (the clubs) deny themselves the income of extra people paying to get in and having a drink, because it outweighs the trouble they bring along.

And because they know that if they're going to allow anybody to get in, the Belgian people will stay out because they don't want to put up with it, because yeah, more likely than not, it'll turn into a small riot.


 
beetlebum Posted: Wed Nov 9 16:33:59 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>beetlebum said:
>
>>Maybe so. Because in my class I had one native Spanish kid, one native British kid, some French-Chinese students, and a two really hot French-Italian guys.
>
>>They seemed to be getting along just fine.
>
>Indulge me for the sake of discussion and allow me to play Devil's advocate here...
>
>Heinz moves from Koln, Germany to Bushwack, Texas for a year as an exchange student. Upon his return back home he finds himself in a discussion about George Bush. Manfred states that Bush is really unpopular with the American public now. Heinz then responds by stating that, unlike Manfred, he had lived in America and among all the people he met and went to school with there, almost every one of them was strongly supporting Bush. He hadn't noticed anyone significantly complaining of the president's job, and he had first hand experience to back up that claim.
>
>Heinz's conclusions about how America feels about Bush shouldn't be applied to the country as a whole...only to Bushwack, TX.
>
>My personal negative experiences as a student visiting France shouldn't be applied to the French people as a whole...at least with any statistical validity.
>
>Your experiences observing how other students of various ethnic backgrounds related to each other during your time in france can't be applied to the attitudes of the whole country today. It was too narrow a microcosum to extract any significant conclusions from.
>
>Yes?
>No?
>Shutup, Addi?
>
>Discuss
>
>
>





First of all, all you needed to say was that you had a problem with me using my personal experience to reflect upon racism in France and wherein French prejudice lies. Grin. But thanks for the sixth grade illustration.

Second of all, unlike your retarded German exchange student, I watched the news, I read newspapers, and I travelled around the country, if you really want me to respond to your analogy. Thus, although I didn't make it clear, I wasn't basing all of my assumptions on my class of 100. (That said, at least I brought up some personal experience. What the heck are you basing your assumptions on? :D)

Third of all, I am just trying to defend the point that the French are not generally racist, which is *what you seem to be implying* (although God forbid I place words in your mouth! I did say "imply") by responding to my argument in the way that you did. You did say (not imply) that you found it hard to believe that the French welcome Vietnamese, Portuguese, Spanish etc. with open arms. I was just trying to explain that while they may not roll out the red carpet (what country does?!) there isn't widespread racism directed towards these groups.

My point is: isn't the burden of proof on yourself? Where is your evidence that the French are generally racist toward all immigrants?

Fourth, assuming I humour you and meet your challenge, I will tell you why the French do not exhibit widespread racism towards the aforementioned groups, whereas some French (enough to make it obvious) do exhibit widespread racism towards immigrants from Algeria, Morrocco, and Tunisia (the majority of today's immigrants are from these three countries).

Just like every person in the world is indoctrinated by their country's education system, the French have been taught since the French Revolution that equality and secularism are the two *keys* to a flourishing Republic. (This makes sense when you think about the history between France and the Church.) In addition, the French are very proud of their history, a sentiment you have in most countries.

Now, I am not saying it is *right*, but the French do not appreciate any threat to their secular way of life. If you want your child to be able to pray at school, you send them to a Catholic school. Religion has *no* place in the public eye. It is considered private and necessarily so.

Other immigrant groups have respected this, perhaps because it was convenient and fit within their own lifestyle, but just the same they have respected these ideas, and thus, they have provided no threat to the current hierarchy of Religion and State.

The following two paragraphs are taken from the European Journal of Political Research, an article titled "Immigrant mobilization between political institutions and citizenship regimes: A comparison of France and Switzerland." (January 2004). You'll have to trust me that this is a generally accepted academic view/understanding of the problem of assimilation in France.

We may hypothesize that, in the French context, ethnic minorities emphasize their collective identities in their claim-making since France's civic-assimilationist model of citizenship largely denies the recognition of ethnic difference in favor of a civic allegiance to the republican values (e.g., Birnbaum 1998; Brubaker 1992; Leca 1992; Schnapper 1991). Given the inclusive character of its formal criteria and its stress on cultural assimilation, this model of citizenship creates a tension between the strong cultural obligations required for incorporation into the host society and the willingness of ethnic minorities to be assimilated. As a consequence, we should observe a high proportion of claims seeking recognition of difference on the part of minority groups, such as Muslims, whose collective identity is endangered by the cultural requirements for assimilation. We expect migrants to react to such demanding cultural requirements and mobilize primarily on issues of cultural diversity and the recognition of ethnic difference.

The proportion of claims addressing cultural rights and participation in France is more that three times higher than in Switzerland. More than a half of these claims are related to religion, as was the conflict over the Islamic headscarf. The principles of equality and of universal rights fostered by the French Revolution imply the denial of particularism and claims for the recognition of ethnic difference and cultural diversity. However, as Young (1990) has pointed out, cultural rights are inherent in individual personality, and it is often psychologically difficult and socially quite destructive to have to downplay ethnic differences. Migrants in France face a situation in which they are asked to avoid expressing cultural diversity in the name of respect for French republicanism, and it appears that they try to redress this situation by asking the authorities (and more generally French society) to remove such constraints from their everyday life.
***


Basically, these immigrants have chosen to immigrate to a country that already has laws in place that expect them to keep their religious life separate from their public life, which is easier done by Christians who wear no outward symbols of their faith, or if they do, they are easily hidden. (A cross necklace, for example, although even those are forbidden in public school.) With practicing Muslims, this creates great internal conflict, and understandably so! Thus, immigrants come to a country that already has laws in place that restrict their former way of life, and so they break the laws expecting their new country to bend over to accomodate them. This has (generally) not been the case for other immigrant groups.

In addition, some men (not all, of course!) who practice Islam expect that all women defer to them, that their daughters will respect the practice of arranged marriages, and that women, in general, are meant to be in the home, never seen or heard in public life. Britain has a huge problem dealing with arranged marriages; they are underreported and the state is not having a hard time deciding whether or not it should get involved with this hidden trend that is becoming more and more of a problem.

Anyway, the way Christianity has evolved in France, women are not expected to defer to men. Plus, much of the country has been atheist following WWII (understandably), and thus much of the newer generation cannot understand why religion would/should be valued over the state.

Anyway, the traditional treatment of women in the Islamic faith (I'm just saying traditionally, not all Muslims behave this way) has also been rejected by the French.

My point is that you shouldn't state that the French are just a generally racist culture. They may be more nationalist than, say, Portugal, but they are dealing with an immigration problem where the immigrants are refusing to conform to social norms. Whether or not these norms are correct (not wearing headress), I cannot say.

What I will say, though, is this: the French aren't generally racist. Many are simply angry that a group has come in and generally disrespected long-standing norms that are considered a cornerstone to the French republic. In other countries, where positive discrimination has been adopted (think: affirmative action) and helped assimilation, promoting people simply because of their ethnicity is seen in France as wrong and not in line with the country's republican roots where all individuals are equal before the law.

To be sure, the French model of integration (or lack thereof) is failing, but this can be attributed to the fact that there is a giant clash of cultures going on which no one wants to address.

And that is why I assert that the French have accepted other immigrant groups much more easily than Northern Africans.

Now go to it! Grin.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 16:49:52 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm completely backing up Meg's post, and I can safely say that this is indeed what is going on, not only in France, but in Western Europe as a whole, since the cornerstones of the Republic of France apply to most countries here, especially to Belgium as well, to name one example I can back up because of my own experience.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 9 16:52:42 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Plain and simple fact is that when you go to uni, there are hardly any there.

Then that fact begs the question...Why is it like that? Is it because all the foreigners in Belgium have no interest in bettering their lives and becoming educated? Are "white" native Belgians the only ones living in the country that value higher education? Are there any underlying reasons that make it this way..or is the only conclusion you can reach is that all these immigrants are just lazy scum?

>But stirring shit up and blaming everybody else for being the loser you are and feel sorry for yourself is fun, I'm sure, especially when you can run amok and still convince yourself and others that you're the victim.

I am in complete agreement with you that those immigrants, ethnic groups, racial minorites, whatever that believe they are entitled to be given something for free, without making an effort to earn it, are in the wrong. I have no patience for that. Those that don't make an attempt to blend into the country they chose to live in and become a productive citizen are wrong as well. My posts are not condoning that behavior.
My concern with the above requote is that the human tendency is to want to lump every single ________(insert: muslim, jew, Iranian, Mexican, black, Turk, etc) into a racial stereotype that promotes a negative image of that whole group. That translates into prejudice against those entire groups and ultimately causes things like riots in L.A., or the senseless rioting in Paris.
Today in America if your great grandparents came here from some middle eastern country, and you and your parents have done nothing but try to better your lives and become proud good American citizens...if you look and dress like a middle eastern you will face insults, profiling, prejudice on a daily basis. It's not debatable; it's a fact here now.
It's much easier to categorize an entire group with having certain traits. It's much harder to recognise that every individual needs to be given a fair and equitable chance to prove what kind of person he/she is without predetermining who they are based on their looks.

and the sad fact is that I'm guilty of doing this myself. If I'm honest I admit that if I'm walking alone to my car at night I get much more tense and nervous if I have to walk past a hooded black guy, than if it was some white person in a business suit. I'm aware of it and I at least make an effort to fight that tendency in me.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 17:01:56 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Is it because all the foreigners in Belgium have no interest in bettering their lives and becoming educated? Are "white" native Belgians the only ones living in the country that value higher education? Are there any underlying reasons that make it this way..or is the only conclusion you can reach is that all these immigrants are just lazy scum?

Basicly, yeah, I don't see why that is such a bad thing to say if everything simply points in that direction. Occam's razor, anyone?

There is no reason at all why they would not get a higher education. It is very, very affordable, and most teachers are socialists who believe that a multicultural society could work, so if anything, they'd get positive discrimination, although all in all, from my experience, they usually treat everybody the same.

>It's much easier to categorize an entire group with having certain traits. It's much harder to recognise that every individual needs to be given a fair and equitable chance to prove what kind of person he/she is without predetermining who they are based on their looks.

I've said it before, prejudice doesn't just appears out of thin air, and chances are that they indeed fit the prejudice. If they don't, it's up to them to prove it, I don't see why anybody should give them any credit or the benefit of the doubt, especially now.

>I'm aware of it and I at least make an effort to fight that tendency in me.

Do you think *they* aren't racist themselves?


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 9 17:04:16 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:

>But thanks for the sixth grade illustration.

You're welcome. I figured if I used a seventh grade one it would be over your head.

A thoughful and well reasoned response to my prompt for more discussion on an important subject; directed to all here, and not solely to or at you.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 9 17:14:24 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>I've said it before, prejudice doesn't just appears out of thin air, and chances are that they indeed fit the prejudice. If they don't, it's up to them to prove it, I don't see why anybody should give them any credit or the benefit of the doubt, especially now.

Hmmm. I've heard very similar reasoning and justification for dealing with a racial "problem" before..now where was it?
Oh yeah,...Germany, 1939.

>Do you think *they* aren't racist themselves?

So if they're racist it's okay for me to be too? Is that what you're saying?


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 17:19:18 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Hmmm. I've heard very similar reasoning and justification for dealing with a racial "problem" before..now where was it?
>Oh yeah,...Germany, 1939.

I'm fully aware of it. Not to blow my own horn here but I probably know more about national socialism than most people I know combined.

Automaticly linking racism to nazi's is what has gotten us here in the first place though, because whatever you tried to say, if it was something bad about a minority, even though you have the facts to back it up, you're a racist=nazi.

I'm a lot of things, a nazi I am not, by any means.

>>Do you think *they* aren't racist themselves?
>
>So if they're racist it's okay for me to be too? Is that what you're saying?

I'm saying that you, and many people with you, should stop seeing the citizens as the agressor and the foreign people as the victims by default.

Example? About 2 weeks ago I saw a video of an imam in a mosque in Antwerp who claimed that the US was hit by Katrina because they're infidels and their women are whores.


 
beetlebum Posted: Wed Nov 9 17:20:55 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>beetlebum said:
>
>>But thanks for the sixth grade illustration.
>
>You're welcome. I figured if I used a seventh grade one it would be over your head.
>
>A thoughful and well reasoned response to my prompt for more discussion on an important subject; directed to all here, and not solely to or at you.

Good call. I can barely handle sixth grade analogies; seventh grade would be out of this world.

That said, I don't understand your last sentence. (I'm not saying that to be an asshole. I don't understand what you're trying to say.)


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 9 17:32:29 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>I'm fully aware of it. Not to blow my own horn here but I probably know more about national socialism than most people I know combined.

Go ahead, blow your own horn. You probably know more about everything than most people here.
: )


>I'm a lot of things, a nazi I am not, by any means.

I think I touched a nerve. I did not mean to imply you were a nazi, Christophe. That's ridiculous. I did mean to say that that line of reasoning was used to justify the genocide of the jewish population back then.


>I'm saying that you, and many people with you, should stop seeing the citizens as the agressor and the foreign people as the victims by default.

You know I live in the gray area of life. I would have a hard time saying it was either groups fault 100% of the time. I just think you defend the citizens in this instance too much without trying to understand that blame may fall on both sides to some degree.

>Example? About 2 weeks ago I saw a video of an imam in a mosque in Antwerp who claimed that the US was hit by Katrina because they're infidels and their women are whores.

I think he meant to say "They're ifihadahifs and their women are bores."


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 17:44:25 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>You probably know more about everything than most people here.
>: )

Perhaps not about everything, but in this case, probably, yes.

>I think I touched a nerve. I did not mean to imply you were a nazi, Christophe. That's ridiculous. I did mean to say that that line of reasoning was used to justify the genocide of the jewish population back then.

True.

The sky was blue back then as well. I'm guessing that must mean the dinosaurs are coming back.

You're exactly saying what a lot of people used to say here before, and why a lot of people used to say it, simmply because they were afraid of being called a racist/nazi, and see where it got everybody.

I used to have major conflicts with some teachers about this, and have been called a racist in the past on more than one occasion (with some people even asking if I was a nazi because of my interest in WWII), because of saying the same things I've said in this thread.

I was always overreacting, and it would never get out of hand the way I claimed it would.

I'm glad I always replied with "time will tell", and here we are, with another reason for me to be the cocky know it all that you might think I am.

I can't help always being right.

>>I'm saying that you, and many people with you, should stop seeing the citizens as the agressor and the foreign people as the victims by default.

Yeah, I knew this was coming, so I wonder, how do you explain the fact that it all started neutrally (because in Europe at least, especially after the devastations of WWII, there was a firm believe that everybody should respect echother and live together) and evolved into racism.

>I just think you defend the citizens in this instance too much without trying to understand that blame may fall on both sides to some degree.

Perhaps, with the thing being that the "natives" are the only ones who have the right to complain, the others can simply get out of here if they don't like it and go die somewhere else for all I care.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 17:53:44 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Speaking of which, anybody remember the reaction when I said I was a racist?


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Nov 9 17:54:34 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Speaking of which, anybody remember the reaction when I said I was a racist?

No.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 18:00:45 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Type "racist" in the search box and scroll down a bit.

I stated, among other things, that I feel like everybody is a racist, and didn't do such a bad job at proving it either as far as I'm concerned, yet few people wanted to admit it.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Nov 9 18:00:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Christophe said:
>
>>
>and the sad fact is that I'm guilty of doing this myself. If I'm honest I admit that if I'm walking alone to my car at night I get much more tense and nervous if I have to walk past a hooded black guy, than if it was some white person in a business suit.


Why should you feel bad about it? Is it not statistically true that the rate of crime commited by blacks in proportion to their overall population is substantially higher in comparison to whites? You're just being cognizant of the increased likelihood of being mugged by the hooded black man rather than by the white man in a business suit.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 18:02:41 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>Why should you feel bad about it? Is it not statistically true that the rate of crime commited by blacks in proportion to their overall population is substantially higher in comparison to whites? You're just being cognizant of the increased likelihood of being mugged by the hooded black man rather than by the white man in a business suit.

Which is exactly what I'm trying to point out; some people would rather shit their pants (if the shoe fits, you can put it on, but I'm not really directing this at you per se addi) than admitting that they're racially or culturally prejudiced, because they're afraid to be stigmatized or called an uneducated racist/nazi for it.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 9 18:35:48 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I would never say I'm innocent of prejudice. I know I have mine.

What I refuse to do though is to embrace racism. To say, That's just the way it is and has to be. Call me naive. Call me a fool. I don't ever want to give up on the belief that a persons skin color or ethnic background predetermines his value as a human.

There are good white people. There are evil white people. There are good Muslims. There are evil muslims.
The day that I see a black male walking towards me in the street and I automatically think to myself with no reservation, "That nigger is a lazy stupid motherfucker, just like all of them", is a day I never want to happen.

Yeah, I'm a racist to some extent, but I fight it and hope I always will give any person the benefit of the doubt before I condemn them and their entire group.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 9 18:48:03 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Call me naive. Call me a fool. I don't ever want to give up on the belief that a persons skin color or ethnic background predetermines his value as a human.

You're a naive fool ;o)

A lot of these rioters are 2nd or 3rd generation.

How long does it take to get your act together.

>There are good white people. There are evil white people. There are good Muslims. There are evil muslims.

Yes, but that's not the point.

The white people originate from here, the others do not. The others get here in search of help and shelter, which is provided, but you give a finger and they try to take an arm without acting like they should.

It is not the Europeans who have to accept their culture, it is them who have to accept the European one.

When I go to an arab country I can't do what they're here doing either, by a long shot.

>The day that I see a black male walking towards me in the street and I automatically think to myself with no reservation, "That nigger is a lazy stupid motherfucker, just like all of them", is a day I never want to happen.

It's not like that.

It's more like "hey, there's a black guy limping all over the place wearing his baseball cap over 1 ear like a bird hit him in the head, or he has a bandana, he must have hurt his head. And hey, he's shouting into his 500€ mobile phone in a different language than the one that people speak here, making sure everybody has noticed him and his 10 buddies as they're hanging around the trainstation during the middle of the day when other people their age either are in school or get a job, harassing people walking by and fighting or acting tough amongst themselves".

>Yeah, I'm a racist to some extent, but I fight it and hope I always will give any person the benefit of the doubt before I condemn them and their entire group.

Everybody has a chance with me to show that they're not like that. I'm absolutely serious. But they don't get the benefit of the doubt anymore because most of them (yes, most of them, as in over 50%) simply don't deserve it.


How many civilized protest marches against the riots from the foreign community have you seen already?

How many of their leaders are condemning what is happening?

They should have done so within the first 3 or 4 days, now would be way too late so they don't have to bother anymore for all I care.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 9 18:52:55 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:

>That said, I don't understand your last sentence. (I'm not saying that to be an asshole. I don't understand what you're trying to say.)

Sorry, Beetlebum. It's probably because I was so vague.

What I meant was that your earlier post on your personal experiences in France got me to thinking about how much one's personal experience affects our worldview. In my weird Addi way I wanted to discuss this more so I used your post to bring up more thoughts along that line.
It came across like I was picking on you, but I didn't really mean to be. You'll notice that in that post I admitted that my personal experiences in France shouldn't be used as a judgement to condemn all French people.
Basically I was just trying to keep the discussion going...and perhaps went about it wrong.

You made me think about how much our own set of experiences have such a profound affect on our perspectives.
If, for example, I had been abused by a catholic priest as a child I would most likely view all priests today with suspicion and some degree of trepidation. But that view would be wrong. I take the actions of one person and hold everyone else like him to the same verdict of guilt. That outlook is understandable, but it's not justifiable in my opinion.

That's all..just rambling now. You made me think.


 
addi Posted: Thu Nov 10 08:03:20 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>>There are good white people. There are evil white people. There are good Muslims. There are evil muslims.

>Yes, but that's not the point.

Ahhhh, but it IS the point.


>It is not the Europeans who have to accept their culture, it is them who have to accept the European one.

I think acceptance needs to come from both sides. If the government of a country allows immigrants to settle in their cities the majority native population needs to allow for the cultural differences that that group will bring with them. Demanding that a particular ethnic group completely assimilate into the mores and values of the host culture is unrealistic. If the attitude of the majority believes "You will become exactly like us, or we will discriminate against you", then it was a mistake to ever allow any immigrants into the country at all.

I am in total agreement with you though that the onus of responsibility falls on the shoulders of those immigrants to understand that it was their decision to move to this new and different place. As "guests" so to speak, they need to learn the native tongue, allow for a different set of values and religious outlooks, and make a sincere effort to become productive citizens of their new home. If they don't then they are only bringing trouble on themselves.

>When I go to an arab country I can't do what they're here doing either, by a long shot.


You could, but you'd probably be dead soon thereafter.

: )



 
addi Posted: Thu Nov 10 08:29:26 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/mind_of_mencia/videos/season_1/index.jhtml

Click on "English..the Mencia Way" video

Stinkin' Latinos..taking all the good yobs!


 
FN Posted: Thu Nov 10 11:25:12 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Ahhhh, but it IS the point.

I don't think it is.

The difference is that the white people originate from here, the non-white people came here to try and survive, and did so because of the white people so they have no right to bitch about it unless they leave immediately afterwards.

>I think acceptance needs to come from both sides. If the government of a country allows immigrants to settle in their cities the majority native population needs to allow for the cultural differences that that group will bring with them. Demanding that a particular ethnic group completely assimilate into the mores and values of the host culture is unrealistic. If the attitude of the majority believes "You will become exactly like us, or we will discriminate against you", then it was a mistake to ever allow any immigrants into the country at all.

With the first part I don't agree, at all.

I do agree with the second part, it was a mistake.

You do people a favor and look at what you get. You give them food, shelter, education, welfare, healthcare, and they bitch about not having enough while in their home country they wouldn't have survived past the age of 5.


 
addi Posted: Thu Nov 10 12:04:47 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>You give them food, shelter, education, welfare, healthcare, and they bitch about not having enough while in their home country they wouldn't have survived past the age of 5.

I have a penpal living in Turkmenistan that's six and a half..so there goes that argument.



"Gays don't vomit. They're a very clean people. And they've been that way ever since they came over to this country from France."

(Family Guy)


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Nov 10 13:37:25 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  interesting article.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/james200511100810.asp


 
FN Posted: Thu Nov 10 14:09:29 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>interesting article.
>
>http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/james200511100810.asp

I don't really know what you're trying to say with this, and I don't really see any value about this article.

All immigrants alright because they know how to make couscous and food that smells nice?

That even though they barely speak french and vandalize good neighbourhoods, they're not so bad?

That it's a good thing that you can point and France to say it isn't that great?

That they get discriminated because they have a different name?


Fuck that.

Yes, a lot of people would choose the "native" guy over the immigrant when they have the same qualifications, or the "native" guy's are a *bit* less.

Why?

Because if you own a store, people don't want the store to be filled by non white people because they have learned to be weary of them. This didn't come out of nowhere.

Also, and statistics back this up, and I know out of my own experiences and because my family is one of "entrepreneurs" or whatever you want to call it, so they have to deal with things like employing/hiring people: the immigrant people simply are more likely to stay at home when they feel like it and don't care too much about punctuality and immediately pull the racist card whenever you point it out to them that you're not satisfied with something they do or don't do.

You can't do business like that, and if it will cost you money, you go for the safe route.





They all brought it onto themselves, and now in order to fix it, they decide to become a parody of their own stereoptype.


 
FN Posted: Thu Nov 10 14:11:57 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Also, it's nice to see Meg's post is shoved into the background while I feel like it has probably been the most constructive/rational post on the thread.


 
beetlebum Posted: Thu Nov 10 14:18:00 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Also, it's nice to see Meg's post is shoved into the background while I feel like it has probably been the most constructive/rational post on the thread.

Thanks. Seriously.

Can't blame a girl for tryin'.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Nov 10 14:38:30 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>interesting article.
>>
>>http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/james200511100810.asp
>
>I don't really know what you're trying to say with this, and I don't really see any value about this article.
>
>All immigrants alright because they know how to make couscous and food that smells nice?
>
>That even though they barely speak french and vandalize good neighbourhoods, they're not so bad?
>
>That it's a good thing that you can point and France to say it isn't that great?
>
>That they get discriminated because they have a different name?
>
>
>Fuck that.
>
>Yes, a lot of people would choose the "native" guy over the immigrant when they have the same qualifications, or the "native" guy's are a *bit* less.
>
>Why?
>
>Because if you own a store, people don't want the store to be filled by non white people because they have learned to be weary of them. This didn't come out of nowhere.
>
>Also, and statistics back this up, and I know out of my own experiences and because my family is one of "entrepreneurs" or whatever you want to call it, so they have to deal with things like employing/hiring people: the immigrant people simply are more likely to stay at home when they feel like it and don't care too much about punctuality and immediately pull the racist card whenever you point it out to them that you're not satisfied with something they do or don't do.
>
>You can't do business like that, and if it will cost you money, you go for the safe route.
>
>
>
>
>
>They all brought it onto themselves, and now in order to fix it, they decide to become a parody of their own stereoptype.
>
I wasn't trying to say anything with that article, I just thought it was interesting. Maybe it's interesting because it's no different for the Muslims of Western Europe than it is for a lot of Black Americans.


 
FN Posted: Thu Nov 10 14:47:00 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>I wasn't trying to say anything with that article, I just thought it was interesting. Maybe it's interesting because it's no different for the Muslims of Western Europe than it is for a lot of Black Americans.

From what I've heard there are indeed some similarities.

It used to be mostly about Arabs/north africans, but lately black guys are shooting up like mushrooms everywhere as well.


 
addi Posted: Thu Nov 10 15:30:28 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Also, it's nice to see Nikki's post is shoved into the background while I feel like it has probably been the most constructive/rational post on the thread.


 
Mesh Posted: Fri Nov 11 02:50:20 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Wow. Wow. If they would have had Queen Rania Al-Abdullah fly to Paris and make a plea for peace, the riots would have stopped dead in their tracks.

Wow. Wow.


 



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