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oh no.
beetlebum Posted: Mon Nov 21 14:12:14 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/21/britain.rape.reut/index.html

Anyway, the article states that 1 in 3 British men blames a woman for being raped. I wasn't all that shocked at the poll results, and I am ashamed to admit that I can see why they think the way they do.

If a woman drinks to the point of utter drunkeness, stumbles home through dark alleys, and is wearing promiscuous clothing, would you attribute some of the blame of being raped to herself, as opposed to the man?


 
Kira Posted: Mon Nov 21 14:19:31 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  No.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Nov 21 14:20:50 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:
>http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/21/britain.rape.reut/index.html
>
>Anyway, the article states that 1 in 3 British men blames a woman for being raped. I wasn't all that shocked at the poll results, and I am ashamed to admit that I can see why they think the way they do.
>
>If a woman drinks to the point of utter drunkeness, stumbles home through dark alleys, and is wearing promiscuous clothing, would you attribute some of the blame of being raped to herself, as opposed to the man?
>
Nope, never.
I don't care how a woman is dressed or what state of inebriation she is in, no means no.
If she is just "asking for it", she wouldn't be saying no.



 
jennemmer Posted: Mon Nov 21 14:56:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  no.

putting oneself in a dangerous position is not wise, but it still doesn't mean the person taking advantage of the situation is in the right.


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Nov 21 15:02:18 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'll add another no.


Never an excuse for rape. No matter the way a woman is dressed or behaving, doesn't make it okay to rape her.


 
addi Posted: Mon Nov 21 15:17:22 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:

>If a woman drinks to the point of utter drunkeness, stumbles home through dark alleys, and is wearing promiscuous clothing, would you attribute some of the blame of being raped to herself, as opposed to the man?

I've drank to the point of utter drunkeness, stumbled home through dark alleys, had on promiscuous clothing, and I have yet to be raped by a woman.

okay...I slapped myself for that one

I happen to agree with Jenn on this. The woman can be accused of very poor judgement. We men are extremely visual beings. Whether women believe it not what a girl wears can have some powerful direct physical and emotional reactions from us guys.

Having said that though I still believe, no matter the circumstances, there is no justfied senario for rape.




 
libra Posted: Mon Nov 21 15:24:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  another very strong no.


 
FN Posted: Mon Nov 21 15:35:41 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The blame, no.

Responsibility, yes.





The man rapes the woman, but it's the woman's own fault she stumbles about drunk and unprotected.


 
FN Posted: Mon Nov 21 15:38:42 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'll say this: don't dress like a whore, don't act like a whore.

If you do, fine, but if you burn your ass you'll sit on the blisters.



There is no excuse for rape, I detest anything that even comes remotely close to it.

But, and there is a but, I also detest promiscues women.



May you get what you wish for.


 
jennemmer Posted: Mon Nov 21 15:39:45 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>The blame, no.
>
>Responsibility, yes.
>
>
>
>
>
>The man rapes the woman, but it's the woman's own fault she stumbles about drunk and unprotected.

We've argued this before but I'm still confused as to how you define 'blame' and 'responsibility'. In a court of law who would you convict, if anyone?


 
FN Posted: Mon Nov 21 15:43:43 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The man, ofcourse.

I think rape should be punishable by a lifelong sentence and perhaps even (chemical) castration.



Saying that the girl also has some responsibility doesn't diminish any of the responsibility the rapist has, and I don't think women are to blame.



But if you get drunk and dress like a cheap slut, then I'd dare say you deserve what you get.






If it was rape without for example drunkness, or dressing like a skank, then the total blame and responsibility is on the guy, ofcourse.


 
Ed Posted: Mon Nov 21 16:12:43 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  so, the vulnerability brought on by inebriation is the fault of the rapee?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Nov 21 16:28:23 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  This time Chris is right.
Any woman should know better than to put herself in that situation, but that doesn't excuse the rapist at all.

In keeping with my doctrine of not usually being in total agreement with Chris, I will say this:

God bless promiscuous women.


 
FN Posted: Mon Nov 21 17:39:38 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ed said:
>so, the vulnerability brought on by inebriation is the fault of the rapee?

Ofcourse it is, how couldn't it be?


Unless liquid xtc was used. And even then. If you're going out and you're a semi-attractive girl you should make sure that there are guys around who watch your back if needed.

If you know they're going to rape you when they get the chance, then again, you deserve it.





I'm a strong believer of the fact that 80% of their misery people bring on themselves by being too lazy to get their act together or to think about their actions and their consequences.

So if you know you're playing with fire but you think it won't happen to you or you just don't feel like taking any precautions, then more power to you, but don't complain to anybody afterwards.


 
FN Posted: Mon Nov 21 17:41:27 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>This time Chris is right.

I'm right 99% of the time, but I'm guessing the world isn't ready for me yet.



I cope with it by keeping in mind that people used to think the earth was flat and that they still claim leprechauns don't exist while I can see one sitting on my shoulder at this very moment.


He tells me to stroke myself.




And burn the dog.


 
addi Posted: Mon Nov 21 18:00:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>If you know they're going to rape you when they get the chance, then again, you deserve it.

That's a totally different situation than the one we've been talking about. And how many woman go out with a guy that knows beforehand he will rape her? One in a million? It's just such a silly example that it becomes a little meaningless to even say it.

We're talking about the responsible party when a rape occurs.
If the female is "semi-attractive".
If the female is drunk.
If the female has sexy clothes on.
If the female is walking home through a bad part of town.

The girl is showing rally poor judgement. That's it. End of story.
Any guy that thinks any of the above gives him the green light to rape needs to spend some time with Bubba in the pen and be his Bitch for a few weeks.

Been around too many jock mentality male jerks in my life I guess. Their attitude of "Well, the bitch was in a short dress and buzzed so she was asking for it" just makes me want to vomit.


 
FN Posted: Mon Nov 21 18:39:52 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>That's a totally different situation than the one we've been talking about. And how many woman go out with a guy that knows beforehand he will rape her? One in a million?

No, but you'd be surprised how many women go out with men who they know are pigs.

>The girl is showing rally poor judgement. That's it. End of story.
>Any guy that thinks any of the above gives him the green light to rape needs to spend some time with Bubba in the pen and be his Bitch for a few weeks.

It doesn't give him the green light, I'm just saying that if the above is true, she shouldn't be too surprised.

She's not the cause of it, but in that case you can't say that she did her best to avoid a harmful scenario.

>Been around too many jock mentality male jerks in my life I guess.

I'm still around them every single day, and trust me, I despise the machismo just as much.

I'm just saying there is more than one side to every coin.

The rapist can only rape a woman when the opportunity arises.

If you're a kid (as in -13 years or something) you can't help it.

If you're drugged withoutout you having anything to do with it, you can't help it.

But if you go out with a bunch of guys who will be just as drunk as you so won't help you out and you fail to take any precaution basicly by for example walking home alone at night and on top of that dress like the whore that you are (because basicly that's what it comes down to) then you shouldn't be surprised that you get treated like that.


This doesn't take the slightest edge off of the blame and responsibility of the rapist, in any way.

I'm just saying that most rapes after the age of 12 or something, unless done by parents, which is a whole different story, in my opinion can be avoided if as a girl you make sure you have some guys with you who will kick any guy or group of guys' asses if they get too close for comfort and you avoid mental and sensory deprivation.



And don't dress like a whore because if you think every guy falls for that, you're shamefully wrong. If you dress like a slut you'll only attract a guy who'll treat you like one.


 
addi Posted: Mon Nov 21 18:45:00 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>And don't dress like a whore because if you think every guy falls for that, you're shamefully wrong. If you dress like a slut you'll only attract a guy like hif.

We're in agreement on this.


 
libra Posted: Mon Nov 21 19:13:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  what about guys being able to get intoxicated without worrying about being raped...why the double standard?

my feelings are that a woman should be able to wear what she wants, go where she wants, and if she seems to be 'asking' for something, that's the guy's completely idiotic misinterpretation.

anndd...who says raping only occurs when women are dressed skimpily? any woman can get rape, from everything i've heard, it's not sexual so much as power-related.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Nov 21 19:16:09 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>what about guys being able to get intoxicated without worrying about being raped...why the double standard?
>
>my feelings are that a woman should be able to wear what she wants, go where she wants, and if she seems to be 'asking' for something, that's the guy's completely idiotic misinterpretation.
>
>anndd...who says raping only occurs when women are dressed skimpily? any woman can get rape, from everything i've heard, it's not sexual so much as power-related.
>
Rape is almost never about sex, and it almost never involves scantily clad women.


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Nov 21 19:18:31 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Anyone ever see that Jodie Foster movie "The Accused"? Good movie. Watch it sometime.


 
Howitzer Posted: Mon Nov 21 21:51:22 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  There is no excuse for rape, i do think we have established that. But, consider this: I get flat wasted and take home a girl and knock her up and get her pregnant, eventhough I said no to her earlier in the night (who knows why, maybe I am married or something), and she persists once I am hammered. That is rape, and it is punishable in over half the states in the nation. Should I have to pay child support for the baby that resulted in my rape?

Or, same situation (kinda), but reversed: I am having a few responsible beers and try hitting on a woman and she says no. Later, she is trashed and comes onto me. We go to her place, next day she calls the cops and I am arrested for rape. Eventhough she came onto me, because she said no earlier that night, that means it is still rape because she was drunk and could not give consent.

One more: Girl gets drunk, I am drunk, no one says yes, and no one says no, the next morning she regrets what she did cause she did not plan on having sex, so it is rape. I go to jail.

All three of these have happened in NC just two months ago alone. I am in a loss-prevention program where we inform students about this kinda thing.

My question to you is: What should the punishment be? Chris said chemical castration, but these were not violent crimes yet all were convicted of rape. There was no assult, and in each case there were "mixed" messages at the time of the event, so does that mean I should have my balls cut off? or should she have her laybia removed so she will never enjoy sex again? I don't know, just questions...


 
Posted: Mon Nov 21 22:41:32 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Howitzer said:
>There is no excuse for rape, i do think we have established that. But, consider this: I get flat wasted and take home a girl and knock her up and get her pregnant, eventhough I said no to her earlier in the night (who knows why, maybe I am married or something), and she persists once I am hammered. That is rape, and it is punishable in over half the states in the nation. Should I have to pay child support for the baby that resulted in my rape?

>My question to you is: What should the punishment be?

I say we outlaw babies.


 
Howitzer Posted: Mon Nov 21 23:46:03 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ha, i agree, or at least we can only clone them, no more of this "chance" bullshit...how am i supposed to know for sure my child is going to be a serial killer like i promised the motherland....i mean, nevermind


 
DanSRose Posted: Mon Nov 21 23:47:55 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Silence of the Lambs was a good movie too. Nell was a little odd, but Panic Room pretty neat.

Another big fat no.
Everyone has their own personal responsibility, but no.
You Cannot Hurt or Use Someone For Your Own Personal Desire or Want Of Control. So Says Dan.
Rape, any type of rape, is not about sex. It is only about power and control.


 
FN Posted: Tue Nov 22 03:30:12 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>what about guys being able to get intoxicated without worrying about being raped...why the double standard?

Unless the girl is a heavyweight boxer, I'm pretty sure most guys can fend them off, even when drunk.

Unless they kunt in packs.

I wouldn't mind.

>my feelings are that a woman should be able to wear what she wants, go where she wants, and if she seems to be 'asking' for something, that's the guy's completely idiotic misinterpretation.

Sure, every woman is entitled to dress like a whore if she feels like it.

I'm just saying, if you're wearing a t-shirt that reads something to the effect of "slut" or "whore" or whatever (and those things exist, but it could just as well be any other type of clothing that indirectly says the same), I'm saying that you shouldn't get all offended when people take you for one.

>anndd...who says raping only occurs when women are dressed skimpily? any woman can get rape, from everything i've heard, it's not sexual so much as power-related.

I never said that and clearly stated so in all my previous posts.




The thing is though, there is no reason to dress like a whore, there is no reason to act like one, and there is no reason to get insanely drunk.

So basicly yeah, if you don't abide to those unwritten rules of common sense, you'll get what's coming for you.


 
FN Posted: Tue Nov 22 03:30:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Unless they kunt in packs.

Hunt...


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Nov 22 06:39:10 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Christophe said:
>>Unless they kunt in packs.
>
>Hunt...
>
Freudian slip ?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Nov 22 06:40:08 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Christophe said:
>>Christophe said:
>>>Unless they kunt in packs.
>>
>>Hunt...
>>
>Freudian slip ?
>
No thanks, I'll have a bloody mary.


 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 22 07:15:03 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>>Christophe said:
>>>Unless they kunt in packs.
>>
>>Hunt...
>>
>Freudian slip ?


LOL!
I seriously read that and just thought it was some new slang word I didn't know about.

kunt: a group of female whores that hunt for drunk males to violate them.




 
Posted: Tue Nov 22 07:40:22 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Sure, every woman is entitled to dress like a whore if she feels like it.
>
>I'm just saying, if you're wearing a t-shirt that reads something to the effect of "slut" or "whore" or whatever (and those things exist, but it could just as well be any other type of clothing that indirectly says the same), I'm saying that you shouldn't get all offended when people take you for one.

What about prostitutes? Escorts? Do they deserve to be raped against their will should such an occasion arise?


 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 22 07:50:19 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CriminalSaint said:

>What about prostitutes? Escorts? Do they deserve to be raped against their will should such an occasion arise?

If someone responds with "It goes with the job" I'm going to seriously bitch slap them

good question, Crim


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Nov 22 08:17:36 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>CriminalSaint said:
>
>>What about prostitutes? Escorts? Do they deserve to be raped against their will should such an occasion arise?
>
>If someone responds with "It goes with the job" I'm going to seriously bitch slap them
>
>And what about those of us who enjoy a good bitch slapping now and then ?


 
Ed Posted: Tue Nov 22 08:57:39 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>libra said:
>>what about guys being able to get intoxicated without worrying about being raped...why the double standard?
>
>Unless the girl is a heavyweight boxer, I'm pretty sure most guys can fend them off, even when drunk.

Because guys can only be raped by women?


 
FN Posted: Tue Nov 22 09:27:04 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ofcourse guys could get raped by another guy as well.

I wouldn't really see it happening though, unless you're in prison getting gangbanged.





And no, I don't condone rape in any way, in case of whores, it doesn't go with the job, but the risk does.


 
libra Posted: Tue Nov 22 12:24:54 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  why is it that girls can dress provocatively but there's hardly a way that guys can dress "cheaply" or "sluttily"

I hate the double standard. As if women can be blamed for the problems of men.


 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 22 12:40:33 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:

>I hate the double standard. As if women can be blamed for the problems of men.

when i dropped my donut on the carpet yesterday...I blamed you.

then i didn't feel like it was my fault for being such a clutz


 
beetlebum Posted: Tue Nov 22 12:58:38 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>why is it that girls can dress provocatively but there's hardly a way that guys can dress "cheaply" or "sluttily"
>
>I hate the double standard. As if women can be blamed for the problems of men.

I don't like the double standard, but I think that the double standard goes both ways.

If a man doesn't take on a job/earn a solid living, he's considered a failure. A woman who doesn't take on a job and lives well is considered smart. Heh.

Once two (heterosexual) people have tangoed, the woman has most of the control. Whether she wants control or not... that's another issue entirely. Fact is, she doesn't even have to tell him that she's pregnant before she has an abortion, and in the end, regardless of what he wants the choice is hers. If the father wants it, and she doesn't, she can abort the child. If she wants it, and the father doesn't, he has to pay child support for the next eighteen or however many years.

Sometimes I don't think issues of gender "equality" should be framed in those terms, because shouldn't it be more about gender equity? We're simply not biologically equal.




 
addi Posted: Tue Nov 22 13:16:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:

>We're simply not biologically equal.

thank god we're not...and please pass the candied yams.

good post, BB



 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Nov 22 14:02:27 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:
>>I don't like the double standard, but I think that the double standard goes both ways.
>
>If a man doesn't take on a job/earn a solid living, he's considered a failure. A woman who doesn't take on a job and lives well is considered smart. Heh.
>
>Once two (heterosexual) people have tangoed, the woman has most of the control. Whether she wants control or not... that's another issue entirely. Fact is, she doesn't even have to tell him that she's pregnant before she has an abortion, and in the end, regardless of what he wants the choice is hers. If the father wants it, and she doesn't, she can abort the child. If she wants it, and the father doesn't, he has to pay child support for the next eighteen or however many years.
>
>Sometimes I don't think issues of gender "equality" should be framed in those terms, because shouldn't it be more about gender equity? We're simply not biologically equal.
>
True dat is . . .


 
sry_not4sale Posted: Tue Nov 22 20:34:48 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Very interesting thread!

Just want to add my dollar fifty.

I think rape is horrible, but I do not think the punishment should be castration or anything as... permanent. I think it is too easy for a male to be wrongly accused, for a punishment like that. Alot of the examples in this thread show that it is hard to determine was exactly is rape and that it is very hard to prove!

Also, I do believe a girl walking home at night by herself in the dark alleys is irresponsible on her part, however on the other side of the coin I think its mans fault for letting the streets get this dangerous.


 
kurohyou Posted: Wed Nov 23 23:53:36 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  As most of the people have said already, there is no excuse for rape in any case. I have known so many women who have had similar experiences, and it makes me sick to think about because I don't understand it. Maybe its not that I don't understand it but that I do understand it and wish that I didn't. But I've known it to have happened to enough people in my life to know that there is no excuse in the world for it--ever.

As for the inebriated aspect of this particular discussion...there is a line Frank Sinatra says in the movie High Society which I've aways liked.

"...you were somewhat the worse or the better for the wine and there are rules about such things."

As for a woman putting herself in a dangerous position, yes, she, as with anyone else, should maintain awareness of her surroundings and avoid putting herself in a dangerous situation. Saying that she deserved to be raped because he walked down an alley late at night is as ludicrious of a suggestion as saying that if I were to do the same thing and got mugged, then I deserved to get mugged.

No one, at any point, deserves to be assaulted or violated in anyway, regardless if they are male or female.

I thought Howitzer brought up some good senarios which fall into, what I would call, the grey area of the discussion. I don't really know where I stand on that side so I won't go on.

I think some respect for other humans, regardless of whether they are a man, woman or child would go a long way. But who amongst us here doesn't know that already.

For what it's worth...



 
FN Posted: Thu Nov 24 05:59:50 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1888035,00.html


 
addi Posted: Thu Nov 24 07:03:58 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1888035,00.html

When cross-examined by Mr Dougal’s barrister, Stephen Rees, the woman agreed “emitting a pleasurable groaning sound” at one stage but added: “I was unconscious. I stopped groaning as soon as I knew something was happening.”

The lesson to be learned from this:

If you're a girl and you get blitzed with a man around make sure you never "emit a pleasurable groaning sound". It will be used against you in court.

If you must drink, lock yourself in your room alone, or if there are other humans with you do a body check beforehand to make sure they're all girls. If one of the girls emits a pleasurable groaning sound during the check, kick her out. She's a lesbian and may take advantage of you later.


 



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