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Does anyone actually buy this?
DanSRose Posted: Wed Dec 7 18:26:43 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.mediatransparency.com/story.php?storyID=94

No, really. Does anyone buy this?


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Dec 7 18:35:01 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Last year the Rev. Jerry Falwell claimed "secularists" "hate Christ"


I don't hate Christ. I hate what some of his followers "ie YOU, Rev. Falwell" do and say in his name.




Oh, and yeah, people buy that.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Dec 7 18:38:01 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>
> "ie YOU, Rev. Falwell"



Aaaannnddd I used quotation marks where I meant to use parentheses.


 
addi Posted: Wed Dec 7 19:25:38 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Falwell
He's a righteous dude!


 
Ahriman Posted: Wed Dec 7 22:17:44 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I really don't give a flying shit what people want to celebrate and don't want to celebrate. If they want me (an atheist) to not celebrate Christmas then they can come on down and fight me. Really. Not to sound like a macho dummkopf. Christmas and Christmas the Christian way are two different things. Unless it's Santa and Jesus using machine guns to defeat the Romans.

DanSRose do you like George Bush?


 
DanSRose Posted: Thu Dec 8 00:14:51 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  No. I've been thinking about this, and no, not really. Politically, he appears to either (a) be in complete denial in how calamitous things in general are (b) in the pockets of the obscene, extreme rich or (c) a little of both. What's worse is that he doesn't seem to be doing anything about America's incredibly poor reception by the rest of world, and not just from a PR standpoint. I mean from terms of respect and prestige, in terms of scientific advancement and academia, the apparent following of religious doctrine over the rule of law, and the placing of the vastly incompenent and unqualified in high powereed positions.
So, no. I do not like him on a (Navy) boat. I do not like him (reading My Pet) Goat.


 
Howitzer Posted: Thu Dec 8 05:07:51 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  John Stewart said it well in reference to the "Happy Holidays" vs. "merry christmas". It is late November, early December and there are two holidays coming up: christmas and the new year. When saying goodbye to someone you won't see over the next month, you could say "have a merry christmas and a happy new year" instead of "happy holidays", but people usually have shit to do, so do i, and i am going to say "happy holidays" to save my air for things that i really need to say, like "fuck off".


 
Ahriman Posted: Thu Dec 8 06:38:41 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>No. I've been thinking about this, and no, not really. Politically, he appears to either (a) be in complete denial in how calamitous things in general are (b) in the pockets of the obscene, extreme rich or (c) a little of both. What's worse is that he doesn't seem to be doing anything about America's incredibly poor reception by the rest of world, and not just from a PR standpoint. I mean from terms of respect and prestige, in terms of scientific advancement and academia, the apparent following of religious doctrine over the rule of law, and the placing of the vastly incompenent and unqualified in high powereed positions.

I, as a New Yorker, do not give a crap as to the world's view of us. I would much rather have a great economy with some pissed off neighbors then some happy fellow countries and a plummeting market. The rest can follow because we supply schools when the budget is the size of one F-14.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Dec 8 06:44:46 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  How many of you are aware that the establishment clause in our Constitution does not prevent us from having an "official" religion ?


 
addi Posted: Thu Dec 8 07:03:18 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Howitzer said:
>and i am going to say "happy holidays"

As a "special" friend of mine was fond of shouting everytime he got on the bus...

"Merry Christmas....and a sloppy New Year!"


 
addi Posted: Thu Dec 8 07:05:38 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ahriman said:

>I, as a New Yorker, do not give a crap as to the world's view of us. I would much rather have a great economy with some pissed off neighbors then some happy fellow countries and a plummeting market.

Just remember the two don't have to be mutally exclusive. It is possible to have a decent economy AND be respected by most in the rest of the world. Unfortunately the last time we could boast of that was back in the '90's.


 
DanSRose Posted: Thu Dec 8 10:17:31 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ahriman said:
>I, as a New Yorker, do not give a crap as to the world's view of us. I would much rather have a great economy with some pissed off neighbors then some happy fellow countries and a plummeting market. The rest can follow because we supply schools when the budget is the size of one F-14.

I am a New Yorker as well. And right now we have none of the above. Our schools have been re-organized and the teachers don't like it. Those pesky NY minorities from those pissed off neighbors are feeling that pesky racial even moreso now, whether they be black, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, or (insert other). And while the NY economy is coming back, slowly, the rest of the country is sinking. (no I didn't vote for Bloomberg)
And if our neighbors think we're all dicks, and they're the only other people with us on this SpaceShip Earth, they won't want to trade with, but they'll have to. So they'll jack up the prices on everything.
You think we aren't laughed at around the world? That people don't go: General person from America = Bush = Idiot
Christophe, What does Europe think of the U.S.?

ifihadahif said:
>How many of you are aware that the establishment clause in our Constitution does not prevent us from having an "official" religion ?
We have no 'official' religion, though 79% of America is Christian. That inclues the Catholic majority (that number is so because of immigrants from Latin America) to Presbytereans to Mormons. That's the point. The Founding Fathers did everything in their power to avoid a Church of America situation, where the leader of the U.S. would be the religious leader of America. They went church every Sunday, because that's what you did in 1776 and 1787. But they weren't religious men; some were moderately religious, some couldn't give a crap about God (like Hamilton- now that's an interesting man), and.....
(This where I go and check and reread the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses)
.... huh:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
I guess that means I wasted my time, because hif, that means you are wrong.


 
DanSRose Posted: Thu Dec 8 10:18:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Sorry, it supposed to be:
>Amendment I
>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Dec 8 10:29:53 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Sorry, it supposed to be:
>>Amendment I
>>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
>
And that leaves each state fee to establish an official religion if they so desire. In the past, some states have had official religions.
Which means, you are wrong.


 
addi Posted: Thu Dec 8 11:05:30 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>And that leaves each state fee to establish an official religion if they so desire. In the past, some states have had official religions.
>Which means, you are wrong.

I didn't really want to get into this little fray, but...

The last official "state" church here was in Conneticut in 1818. A few colonial states had state religions, but for all practical purposes they were abolished during the Revolution.

"The First Amendment to the US Constitution explicitly bans the federal government from setting up a state church...All present State Constitutions also include a clause parallel to the First Amendment."





 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Dec 8 11:55:05 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>And that leaves each state fee to establish an official religion if they so desire. In the past, some states have had official religions.
>>Which means, you are wrong.
>
>I didn't really want to get into this little fray, but...
>
>The last official "state" church here was in Conneticut in 1818. A few colonial states had state religions, but for all practical purposes they were abolished during the Revolution.
>
>"The First Amendment to the US Constitution explicitly bans the federal government from setting up a state church...All present State Constitutions also include a clause parallel to the First Amendment."
>
My point was merely that the establishment clause only refers to congress and left the states free to choose at their will.
I believe the most recent official state religion was in the 1830's.
>


 
DanSRose Posted: Thu Dec 8 13:10:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I be of the confused. What does this have to do with war on X-mas?
And if the last state church was pre-Civil War, hasn't this question died?

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/TDS-OReilly-bustedonChristmas.wmv



 
SntSaturn Posted: Thu Dec 8 14:17:09 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I love Christmas. It's stupid to think it should be so secular. Yes I celebrate the birth of Christ, but I also love non-religious stuff like christmas lights and cookies. The holiday is just so much more than that now.


 
Mesh Posted: Thu Dec 8 16:10:47 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  What would be wrong with a State Sponsored religion anyways? It doesn't mean theocracy. We had a State Church, and no one was obligated to live anything even remotely resembling a Christian life. Or even be Christian at all.


 
DanSRose Posted: Thu Dec 8 19:00:41 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  There is a difference between a state sponspered religion and theocracy. Of course there is. Soooo..... which one would be it? Which one should be it?

Also, when Macy's is putting up Christmas decorations the day after Haloween, you can say Happy Holidays. You can say Happy Holidays because there is Thanksgiving, Kwanza, Chanukah, Christmas, and New Years' (Ramadan was early this year).


 
mat_j Posted: Sun Dec 18 20:38:12 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  the thing that pisses me off the most about christmas is that far too many people are concerned about how other people are celebrating it without enjoying it themselves.



 
addi Posted: Sun Dec 18 20:41:55 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mat_j said:
>the thing that pisses me off the most about christmas is that far too many people are concerned about how other people are celebrating it without enjoying it themselves.

: )
Here..here!

BTW...How are YOU celebrating it this year? Hmm? It better be in a manner I approve of.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Dec 19 07:01:58 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Most of you completely miss the point.
The point is the PC police are trying to erase Christmas.
No one really gives a damn about Happy Holidays vs. Merry Christmas, if that was the only thing, it wouldn't even be an issue.
There is much more than that going on.
Schools are not allowed to have Christmas programs and the students are not allowed to sing Christmas carols anymore.
It's not called Christmas break anymore, it has to be Winter Break.
One school even went so far as to outlaw red and green colors at their winter festival.
It's bullshit spawned mostly by the ACLU.
The FEDERAL Holiday this is all about is Christmas period. If this offends you, I don't give a damn.

A Saudi prince just donated 10 million dollars each to two of our most prestigious universities for religious studies in the name of diversity. This guy is from a country where you can be put to death for possession of a bible.
Fuck him and his country.


 
addi Posted: Mon Dec 19 07:41:38 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  relax friend. No ones going to do away with christmas. Not the ACLU, not the liberals, not the muslims, not the jews. Christmas will be celebrated in Whoville for a long time to come.

The silly thing I find about organized efforts to do away with traditional christmas celebrations is that the more someone, or some group, complains about it, the more it makes people want to do just the opposite. That kind of effort always fails...like when some fundamentalist group makes a stink about some movie or book coming out. They end up drawing more curiousity about it and inadvertantly make it more popular.
The truth of the matter is that the general populace made Christmas a secular commercial holiday many decades ago. It's not a new phenomena.


 
mat_j Posted: Mon Dec 19 08:03:19 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>mat_j said:
>>the thing that pisses me off the most about christmas is that far too many people are concerned about how other people are celebrating it without enjoying it themselves.
>
>: )
>Here..here!
>
>BTW...How are YOU celebrating it this year? Hmm? It better be in a manner I approve of.
>

Christmas for me starts when fairytale of NewYork plays for the first time of year, then sacred whiskey is drunk until the feast of christmas itself. then all the traditions are followed meticuluously including midnight mass, turkey dinner and drinking whiskey. You see Christmas is all about setting an alocholic base in your stomach in preparation for new year or 'whiskey day' as some call it.


 
mat_j Posted: Mon Dec 19 08:04:20 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  See i know all the traditions off by heart


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Dec 19 08:05:36 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>relax friend. No ones going to do away with christmas. Not the ACLU, not the liberals, not the muslims, not the jews. Christmas will be celebrated in Whoville for a long time to come.
>
>The silly thing I find about organized efforts to do away with traditional christmas celebrations is that the more someone, or some group, complains about it, the more it makes people want to do just the opposite. That kind of effort always fails...like when some fundamentalist group makes a stink about some movie or book coming out. They end up drawing more curiousity about it and inadvertantly make it more popular.
>The truth of the matter is that the general populace made Christmas a secular commercial holiday many decades ago. It's not a new phenomena.
>
There is some truth to what you say, but not completely.
Christmas is celebrated by both Christians and secularists, each in their own ways.
If you don't think Christmas is under attack, then I invite you to go to your nearest public school system and offer to put on a Christmas pageant complete with traditional Christmas carols and nativity scene. Ask them if they go on Christmas break or winter break.
Do they have a Christmas tree or a holiday tree. As far as I know there has never been a tradition of a new years tree, so the term holiday tree is kind of stupid, since we all know where the tradition of the tree came from.
In Wisconsin they actually changed the words to Silent Night so it had no Christian references in it. How stupid is that ?
This rant could go on and on.
You are right Addi, Christmas isn't going to go away, but only because common sense will prevail. And only because those who love it will continue to fight back against those who say this war doesn't even exist.


 
addi Posted: Mon Dec 19 09:03:32 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  If a person's God is shattered by entertaining the notion of evolution, then I say they were never praying to a true God in the first place.

If a Christian can't celebrate Christmas without being able to call the school break "Christmas Break"; If a Christian can't sincerely celebrate Christmas without singing "Silent Night" in the school auditorium; If a christian can't appreciate the real meaning of Christmas without putting on a Christmas pagent with a nativity scene....then they have a weak faith and a very small God.

Publically celebrate life and learning at school.
Privately celebrate personal faith and religious traditions at home and at church.



 
FN Posted: Mon Dec 19 10:37:21 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>You think we aren't laughed at around the world? That people don't go: General person from America = Bush = Idiot
>Christophe, What does Europe think of the U.S.?


I think in europe people just can't begin to imagine how a 2 party system can exist and why americans are percieved as doing nothing against what is going wrong, and how totalitarian the american regime actually is even though america is claimed to be "the land of the free".

Have you ever noticed that only americans call it that with a straight face?



Simple fact of the matter is; here, if a senator/minister/whatever screws up, or somebody who he/she is responsible for does so, they resign from their post either out of free will and with dignity or they get voted out by their colleagues, no matter how high in the hierachy he or she is.

If you fuck up in a company they're going to fire you. I don't see why you should keep incompetent people in place when they have proven themselves to be incapable of carrying out the tasks at hand for whatever reason there might be.




At first the general feeling in europe, as far as I can tell, was that american didn't mean pro bush/pro war/...

The fact that nothing gets done in the US itself is to many people a sign that the general american either isn't that bright, or agrees with what is happening. So unfortunately if you ask me, resentment grows, not only against the US as an institution, but against its citizens as well.

Should the US care? I think that is for every person to decide, but I think the tables could be turned in a few decades and that people will be regretting how the US/EU relationships have evolved during this period in time when China, India,... start to rear their heads.


I think it is a grave misconception by the way to think that EU citizens are jealous of US citizens. At least that is the vibe I sometimes get when reading stuff, that that stream of thought lives in the US. As far as I can tell, it doesn't, especially not the last 4-5 years.

What is felt probably is a kind of pity for those who're on the US train if you will and can't get off and get judged for it while they aren't agreeing with what is going on.





To each his/her own.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Dec 19 10:46:08 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>If a person's God is shattered by entertaining the notion of evolution, then I say they were never praying to a true God in the first place.
>
Perhaps, but it is not your decision to make for them.
Maybe we would be better of with a god who is pleased when we cut off the heads of our enemies on television.

>If a Christian can't celebrate Christmas without being able to call the school break "Christmas Break"; If a Christian can't sincerely celebrate Christmas without singing "Silent Night" in the school auditorium; If a christian can't appreciate the real meaning of Christmas without putting on a Christmas pagent with a nativity scene....then they have a weak faith and a very small God.
>
Yes ! you are right again ! lets send them back underground to the catacombs, where they once were, where they belong !
Those damned Christians, how dare they want to celebrate their own holiday as it was decreed by their very own govenment ?

>Publically celebrate life and learning at school.
>Privately celebrate personal faith and religious traditions at home and at church.
>
Yes, let's not teach our children about the Christian heritage of their country.
Make sure they don't know the religious tendencies of the founding fathers and how they believed or why our currency says "in god we trust".
Or why every one of our presidents has been sworn in on a bible.
Or why every session of congress begins with a prayer.
Or why every session of court in every state begins with a benediction of some sort.

You would do away with all of these ?
Our country was founded by religious men who applied their Judaeo Christian values to our laws. God is in our government whether you like it or not.


 
addi Posted: Mon Dec 19 11:12:15 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  There are so many flaws in logic, and twisting of my words in your post that I don't even know where to start. You sound just like a right-wing...oh, wait...nevermind.

sigh..it's SO lame that I even have to defend myself on this, hif.
I'm not anti-christian. Most of my present day values I owe to being raised in a christian environment.

What I am is anti "small, afraid, literal and intolerant" christian.

I would go to the trouble of explaining the difference to you, but I'm afraid it would fall on deaf ears.


 
addi Posted: Mon Dec 19 11:23:51 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ps
if you are really as upset as you sound about the crisis of christianity in the U.S. today you would actually welcome this so called persecution of our traditional faith by those deamonic liberals.

Nothing strenghtens and purifies a person's faith more than a little outside persecution.

Nothing will weaken a faith quicker than complacency and government sactioned acceptance.

Human nature


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Dec 19 11:29:51 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ps
>if you are really as upset as you sound about the crisis of christianity in the U.S. today you would actually welcome this so called persecution of our traditional faith by those deamonic liberals.
>
>Nothing strenghtens and purifies a person's faith more than a little outside persecution.
>
>Nothing will weaken a faith quicker than complacency and government sactioned acceptance.
>
>Human nature
>
I'm pretty sure you and I are pretty in agreement on matters of religion Addi.

I just woke up this morning and decided to be a burr in your shorts.
:-)


 
addi Posted: Mon Dec 19 11:32:09 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>I just woke up this morning and decided to be a burr in your shorts.
>:-)

Well..DON'T DO THAT!
It's not very christian of you



: )


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Dec 19 11:34:06 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  "pretty in agreement" ?
what the fuck does that mean ?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Dec 19 12:44:20 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Reason for the Season

A McDonald's restaurant in Raleigh, N.C. is under pressure to change a sign out front wishing passersby a Merry Christmas, according to WRAL-TV.

Some in town say the sign, which reads "Merry Christmas, Jesus is the Reason for the Season," comes on a bit too strong.

Among those who complained was Amanda Alpert, who called McDonald's corporate offices to ask that it be changed. "It offends me because it specifically talks about Jesus, Merry Christmas," she said.




 
Mesh Posted: Mon Dec 19 20:00:13 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Reason for the Season
>
>A McDonald's restaurant in Raleigh, N.C. is under pressure to change a sign out front wishing passersby a Merry Christmas, according to WRAL-TV.
>
>Some in town say the sign, which reads "Merry Christmas, Jesus is the Reason for the Season," comes on a bit too strong.
>
>Among those who complained was Amanda Alpert, who called McDonald's corporate offices to ask that it be changed. "It offends me because it specifically talks about Jesus, Merry Christmas," she said.
>
>



Well boo hoo. I'm not religious, but things like that doesn't offend me. For fucks sake, if you don't believe in it just look at it and go on with your life, it doesn't mean you have to convert just because you saw it. It only becomes a big deal if you decide to make it one.


Or better yet, just don't look at it.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sat Dec 24 22:00:41 2005 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Seeking to ensure there was no association with Christmas, a Massachusetts school barred students from wearing red and green elf hats during its "winter pageant," one of many cases reported by a public-interest legal group running a campaign to "educate" the educators about religion in public schools.

At Medway Middle School in Medway, Mass., decorated trees also were called "magical trees" and the school pulled a religious song from the program.


Florida-based Liberty Counsel says it has handled scores of similar Christmas cases, including a complaint against Brookwood Forest Elementary School in Birmingham, Ala., where students were asked to create "holiday bags" for their classmates but told they couldn't include anything religious.

Angels, crosses, or words such as "Noel," all were banned, Liberty Counsel said.

Also, candy canes were prohibited because they resemble the canes used by the shepherds in the biblical story of the Nativity. Red and green colors and Christmas trees were forbidden as well. Hanukkah dreidels were permitted, however.

In Lewiston, Pa., the Lewiston Elementary School prohibited a kindergarten student from passing out balloons to her classmates during a Christmas party because they contained depictions of biblical scenes, including Noah's ark and the battle between David and Goliath

A school spokesperson explained the school was attempting "to separate church and state."

Liberty Counsel said that although it learned of the cases after they occurred, the schools still are subject to legal liability.

The group says it "will make sure that these schools do not commit these same constitutional violations in the future."

Mathew D. Staver, Liberty Counsel's president and general counsel, says "educators need to be educated."

"Students can no longer be treated as prisoners in the war on Christmas," he said. "Students have the right to celebrate Christmas, especially when they engage in interpersonal communication."

Staver said treating as "contraband" anything associated with Christmas, such as the colors red and green, is "absurd and insulting."

"Censoring Christmas is not safe," he said. "It is unconstitutional."



As WorldNetDaily reported, the Arizona-based Alliance Defense Fund is pressing officials at three public schools and at a retirement community to allow celebration of Christmas.

In Freehold, N.J., for example, Adelphia School officials replaced the words "Merry Christmas" with "Happy Holiday" in the song "We Wish You a Merry Christmas" in its Dec. 21 "King Wenceslaus" concert.




 



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