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Muhammed with a dick up his ass
FN Posted: Tue Jan 31 14:59:07 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  anybody read this?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/01/31/denmark.cartoon.ap/index.html



In-fucking-credible.

In response, all (as far as I know) Belgian newspapers will be posting "offensive to muslims" cartoons tomorrow.


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 31 15:00:02 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/01/30/denmark.cartoon.ap/index.html


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Jan 31 15:26:18 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  They never should have apologized. Yes, lets let these radical humourless stiffasses push us around why don't we. They can choke on it for all I care.

Fuck them.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Jan 31 15:27:33 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And cartoons like those wouldn't have been made if things like this didn't happen all the time anyways.


Good job keeping your negative stereotypes alive guys.


 
Aeon Posted: Tue Jan 31 16:09:53 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Geez. You mispronounce Mohammed's name wrong and they burn your country's flag. I really think radical muslims just do it for the flag burning.


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 31 16:20:18 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Aeon said:
>You mispronounce Mohammed's name wrong and they burn your country's flag.

I doubt most of the guys involved know how to read so they probably just do so because their leaders told them to.


 
FN Posted: Wed Feb 1 08:23:58 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://smh.com.au/news/world/playboy-of-western-world-upsets-muslims/2006/01/30/1138590441920.html


 
addi Posted: Wed Feb 1 08:54:20 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  my guess is that they're just really bored.



Faris: Hey Isaam, what's happening?

Isaam: Nothing.

Faris: Man I'm bored. Let's go see who Sahar is hating.

Isaam: He's cleaning his Kufi. A bird pooped on it during the America Sucks protest yesterday. Sahar said it was a bald eagle.

Faris: DEATH TO ALL BALD EAGLES!!

Isaam: Yup. I heard the Grand Mufti is going to announce an official Jihad against all non-muslim birds next Tuesday.

Faris: Praise the great and most merciful Allah!....
I know! We could chill in front of Akmed's Halal Foods and insult women daring to show their ankles walking by. DEATH TO FEMALE ANKLES!!

Isaam: Yes...death to those horrible... beautiful...sensual...fleshy...ohhh soooo curvey...female ankles...

Faris: Isaam! You're showing unholy bulge in your galabiyya!

Isaam: Forgive me, brother Faris. The evil female ankle led me down the path of wickedness.

Faris: Maybe we could kidnap someone today.

Isaam: Yes, but who? We're running out of people to kidnap.

Faris: Hmmm...perhaps we should expand our kidnappings to livestock. You know, Ali's goat was giving me strange looks the other day. He may be a spy for those American pigs.
DEATH TO ALL AMERICAN PIGS!!

Isaam: No...no...Ali loves that goat. If something happened to it he would chop off our kremkahs.

(silence...and deep sighs)

Faris: Let's go see what's on Aljazeera.

Isaam: Okay...maybe they're burning something today on the "Good Morning, Allah" show.





 
Mesh Posted: Thu Feb 2 15:05:52 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/02/cartoons.wrap/index.html


My favourite


""The cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad are an attack on our spiritual values. There should be a limit to press freedom," the state Anatolian news agency quoted Erdogan as telling French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy during talks in Ankara."


Well isn't that just fucking GRAND. I love how these assholes think they have a right to say what freedoms should be had in other countries.


The Islamic Society in Denmark said similar things. They even tried taking it to court....


 
Mesh Posted: Thu Feb 2 15:14:57 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  "I am speechless that those people, whom we have given the right to live in Denmark and where they freely have chosen to stay, are now touring Arab countries and inciting antipathy towards Denmark and the Danish people"


Yeah Rasmussen, what are you going to do about it, then?


 
addi Posted: Thu Feb 2 15:31:46 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  "...with angry demonstrations and the shutting down of the EU office in Gaza City."

Angry demonstrations...they're always angry. There should be more "Really Joyful and Happy Demonstrations".
And they aren't even origonal in their rhetoric anymore; "We'll kidnap someone!", as they fire their guns in the air. Sheesh...if i had a nickel every time some fanatic shouted that out.

Get a life people...really. If you can't handle someone drawing a negative cartoon about your prophet without threatening to kill someone willy-nilly then you have seriously gotten on the wrong path...One that's leading you away from a merciful and loving Allah.


 
FN Posted: Thu Feb 2 15:51:55 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The thing is, those people are worthless, plain and simple, and the only way they can get some attention is by acting like the marginalized fools that they are.

Hurrah for racism.



Seriously thougj, I'm tired of it.

It's like the rasmussen quote by mesh, except he forgot to include that they not only get the right to live there but also suck out the social security.


I'm all for leveling all mosques with the ground on Belgian/European soil, since more often than not they're paid for by the state and they cause nothing but trouble for the surrounding area and for society as a whole.


 
Howitzer Posted: Thu Feb 2 21:33:23 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I don't think they should have apologized, but look what happened to those who "splashed the pond" in the Islamic culture with their writings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy#Comparable_incidents

perhaps these editors did not want to die? I love free speach, and I would die for it, but over a cartoon of Mohammad? Mmmmm, maybe not


 
addi Posted: Fri Feb 3 07:30:20 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Just a few added thoughts on this...

This morning I was listening to NPR on the drive in and they were interviewing some prominant U.S. muslim spokesman. He explained about the muslim practice of never showing any image of muhammed, even when movies have been made they never have any actor portray the prophet.
He also said that it was important to note that on a poll taken at an aljazerra web site somewhere around 80,000 plus responses were given regarding the cartoon image incident. Out of that number something like 70,000 muslims (don't remember the exact figure) responding said the apology given by the Danish newspaper was sufficient, and that that matter should be dropped. The significantly smaller remainder said more needed to be done to punish the offenders.
One can extrapolate from those numbers that the vast majority of muslims have their wits about them and are keeping this in perspective.
Sadly, it's those minority extremists that make the loudest noise across the globe and are responsible for ransacking the Danish embassey in Jakarta and creating a ruckus elsewhere.

When christian fundamentalists here say or do really dumbshit things, e.g. Pat Robertson, other rational leaders come out publically and denounce there words or actions. I wish the more moderate muslim leaders across the globe would follow that same practice and let the rest of the non-muslim world know that the opinions expressed by some muslims don't necessarily represent the opinions and beliefs of the majority of muslim believers. Not getting that message out loud and clear only strenghtens the negative stereotypes the western world has about modern Islam...and makes the chasm between these two groups more explosive.


 
FN Posted: Fri Feb 3 07:47:00 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  No

They're still asking for apologies, so they can't say that the apologies were "sufficient".


 
FN Posted: Fri Feb 3 08:07:46 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>No
>
>They're still asking for apologies, so they can't say that the apologies were "sufficient".

What I meant to say was: the fact that they expect apologies is over the top already



And where is the "islamic community" anyway, crying out that those people don't speak for them?


 
addi Posted: Fri Feb 3 08:16:20 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Yes!
will you read what i actually wrote, silly boy
: )

I didn't say all of the muslim spokemen were content with the apology.
I said in a poll taken on a prominant muslim web site that Mr. Average Ali Babba muslim believer responding thought the apology was sufficient...by a very significant majority.
I said nothing about some of the vocal clerics and leaders still calling for heads to roll....except that they may not represent how the majority of muslims around the world really feel.

So agree with me or I swear by the prophets I'll kidnap your pooch and make with do lude things with my cats!


 
FN Posted: Fri Feb 3 08:41:22 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I did read the post.

I'm saying their shouldn't have been an excuse in the first place.


 
addi Posted: Fri Feb 3 08:59:21 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>And where is the "islamic community" anyway, crying out that those people don't speak for them?

I've been wondering the same thing. It's just a wild guess on my part, but sometimes I think that maybe when muslims can voice their opinions under conditions of relative anonymity (like in an internet poll)then the more sane and moderate factions appear.
But when the extremists can track down a contrary or dissenting opinion then perhaps there's a legitimate fear on their part of being ostracized, or worse yet, physically threatened.

I don't know. It's just a guess that makes sense as to why the more rational heads seem so silent these days.



 
addi Posted: Fri Feb 3 12:16:06 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.devilducky.com/media/40716/

no one can accuse us christians of not having a good sense of humor


 
Mesh Posted: Fri Feb 3 12:34:35 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I've always known that Jesus was a big goofball on the inside.


 
Mesh Posted: Fri Feb 3 17:11:31 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/PA_NEWA3004371138983473A000?source=PA%20Feed&ct=5



*Big le motherfucking sigh*


They're quite good at showing how innacurate the caricatures are.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/03/cartoon.wrap.friday.ap/index.html


"I mean, the government of Denmark has to do something about what is happening to appease the whole Muslim world."


Short response: No.

Long response: Noooooooooooooooooooooo.


 
Mesh Posted: Fri Feb 3 20:16:03 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16316&start=0


Pictures from a protest in London.


 
Klaas Posted: Sat Feb 4 15:43:03 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  www.geitenneuker.nl

This is how we do it in Holland!


 
FN Posted: Sun Feb 5 12:57:18 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyid=2006-02-03T202815Z_01_N03197247_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-CARTOONS-USA.xml&rpc=22


 
addi Posted: Sun Feb 5 13:12:01 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The government saw an opportuntiy to look good, and they grabbed it. I'm sure most happen to think the cartoon depictions are right, but they can't publically say that...so they get an official spokesman to denounce the drawing and show a face of disgust that they were published, while on the inside they'd like all the outraged protesting muslims to take a one way flying fuck to hell.

Ahhh...politics


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Feb 5 14:57:44 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Fuck all. Muslims need to grow the fuck up. They are acting like spoiled little children throwing a tantrum when they don't get their way, and balling their eyes out when someone hurts their poor wittle feewings.

All the anti-jewish and anti-christian cartoons so common in the muslim press are alright, though.


Any government siding with them and saying the press should not be critical of Islam should be ashamed of themselves. The west is not bound by Islamic law. I can see a crucifix dipped in urine, but I can't see a cartoon of Mohammed? Western governments need to stop selling western culture out just so they don't risk offending anyone. Did they not see the protesters in London, praising the bombings on the subways and threatening more like them? Saying "To hell with freedom"? These are the people they're defending?


I don't get what is so hard to understand. The west has an established culture and set of values and beliefs and we have our own way of doing things. If you are muslim and come live here, you need to accept those differences and live by our laws. When in Rome, do as the Romans do...the guest doesn't make the rules, the homeowner does....whatever. If how people in Denmark, or Britain, or the US or wherever, live is unacceptable to you and incompatible with your religious beliefs, then why come in the first place? You may find a nation like Saudi Arabia more to your liking.


And as far as politicians and political leaders in Muslim countries demanding that the west curtail their freedoms to better suit Islam, fuck off. That's all that can be said about that.


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Feb 5 15:04:25 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And yes, it may have been in bad judgement for Jllands-Posten to publish those pictures. They may have been offending. But that gives no one the right to threaten to murder and carry out terrorist attacks. In the end, any publication should have the right to be critical of any religion it damn well pleases. The followers of that religion need to learn to be able to handle it.


And this shit was published in September, and they are only now getting around to reacting? That tells you right there that all this bullshit is carefully orchestrated by extremists with bigger motives.





 
Mesh Posted: Sun Feb 5 15:06:25 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  PS I've written several e-mails to politicians in Denmark expressing my opinions on the matter. I would call if it didn't cost so much.


 
addi Posted: Sun Feb 5 15:20:55 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>PS I've written several e-mails to politicians in Denmark expressing my opinions on the matter.


Dear Prime Minister Rasmussen

Bleh!

Sincerely,
Meshie-Mesh

: )


 
addi Posted: Sun Feb 5 15:51:06 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I've been trying hard to understand their mindset. So I literally tried to imagine some kind of cartoon that would really offend me. All I could come up with was if a prominent arab newspaper ran a cartoon showing Jesus torturing cute puppies with a knife and laughing. I would find that distasteful and in extreme poor taste.
So I tell myself maybe how I react to that hypothetical cartoon is how some muslims are reacting to the cartoons published.
However I still can't get myself to completely understand their reactions, even when I do that.
I can see being upset. I can see the leaders asking for an apology, but I can't see threatening an entire group of people with physical harm over a drawing. The hyper-reaction to this mystifies me.
It's disheartening too, because I have liked to think that given all the cultural differences between our global communities that if I had an opportunity to walk a mile in their shoes I would come to understand and appreciate those conflict causing differences. But...this may just be a case where even if I did have a chance to walk in their shoes for a mile (or even 100 miles) I would still think they're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Another distinction I think they fail to pick up on is that political cartoons can't always be taken at face value. For instance the author of a cartoon depicting mohammed with a bomb hat on may not be making any statement at all about the historical prophet. He may be trying to say something instead about the current state of Islamic believers...and, right or wrong, there's a huge difference between those two interpretations.
Once any religion loses its ability for self-introspection I think it has paved the way to stray off course from its origonal tenets.

Make any sense?


 
kurohyou Posted: Sun Feb 5 16:13:24 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  A couple of random thoughts...

I haven't kept up on this story to be honest. It seems like something blown horribly out of proportion and I don't understand why its getting so much air time.

I have four thoughts here.

1.) Its disturbing to me that some of these people feel that a violent retaliation is a proporitional response to an offensive cartoon. I don't profess to know anything about Islam, but I don't know if any religious leader, Buddha, Ghandi, Jesus, or whomever you choose, sanctioning a violent reaction to something which, in my view, isn't that big of a deal. Apart from the demonstrations which have been held, I don't know of any major violence associated w/ this mess. I caught Addi's post saying "we'll just kidnap someone." I guess my question is do is that the way to win support from your cause, with fear and intimidation tatics. Maybe the cartoon was in bad taste. But I would hope that strength of character would dictate, not only a proportional response, but also a response is good taste, to counteract the bad taste in which the cartoon was posted in.

2.) I'm not niave enough to think that these protestors and demonstrators and all those who are up in arms about this, in anyway represent the whole of Islam. Perhaps they represent the more radical side of Islam. But I guess my contention here would be the same as my contention to my wife about Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

My wife, who is a devout christain, swears that those two men don't speak for her, nor do they speak for many of the people of her church. Which is all fine and good. But as it stands right now, they are two of the biggest faces out in the public eye, representing christanity.

To people who have difficulty discerning fiction from reality, hearing the "voice" of American christanity advocating the assianation of another country's Political leader, would scream that christians are crazy. This is not the case for the most part, but who is standing up against Roberson? What christian is standing up, center stage and saying "this man doesn't speak for me?"

It seems the same holds true for the islam issue. All we see are the radical islamic people. the ones w/ bandanas, guns and the ones kidnapping foreigners and seeking violent retribution for a cartoon. Where are the other Islamic people? Why are the moderate islamics, the islamic people who belive that violence is not the answer not speaking out against these people? Now and then in the news you hear about one of the groups coming out and condeming a bombing or something after the fact. To me that is the same as my wife and her friends ranting against Robertson in the walls of their little church. Are people afraid of islamic cultures, maybe, maybe not. It might be because all they see are the radical ones, they don't see the ones who are genuinely good people. And I have to believe that there are good Islamic people.

I'm sure part of the "slant" is also the responsiblity of the news organizations who share these events to the world. They will get more air time out of something which is violent and that will cause fear, than out of an interview w/ an old Islamic man who is crying because of the atrocities being carried out in the name of his religion. I don't doubt that the media is partially responsible for the unequal portrayal of events, but I don't have the energy to go into that right now.

As it is I have forgotten my other two points, so if I remember them I will come back.

For what it's worth...


 
kurohyou Posted: Sun Feb 5 16:22:39 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ah, I remembered one of the two...

3.) I also get the sense that a porition of the islamic community is falling into victim mode. It seems, and I could be horribly mistaken here, and let me know if I am. But it seems that the islamic community is slipping into a mode of "Us-against them." But the them is no longer solely the Western-Americanized value system, but rather the world.

To an extent I can understand why that may be taking place. Its impossible to assume that a handful of people, and their actions, represent the whole of that group of people. But when we approach things from such an absolutist point of view, often times the result is this black and white, right and wrong point of view which is not always accurate.

Its my hope, as with a lot of heated situtations in this world, that cooler heads prevail. That at some point people are going to look at this and say that continuing the violence and hate is not going to get us anywhere. I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again, but we are all stuck on this rock we call earth. We better learn how to get along before we destroy each other.

I'll be if I remember #4.

For what it's worth...


 
kurohyou Posted: Sun Feb 5 16:28:10 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
>To an extent I can understand why that may be taking place. Its impossible to assume that a handful of people, and their actions, represent the whole of that group of people. But when we approach things from such an absolutist point of view, often times the result is this black and white, right and wrong point of view which is not always accurate.

Let me finish that thought off...

While its impossible to assume that a handful of people represent the whole of that group of people, that is what we end up doing. We see but a small peice and think that it represents the whole. The actions of a number of these radical islamic groups have been horrible, and those horrible acts have been broadcast around the world, with little or no distinction between the radical nature of their actions versus the true nature of islam. The result is that islam probably does not have a very good reputation in the world right now, due to that lack of distinction. But as I said before, approaching things from an absolutist point of view is not the correct view. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, waiting to be found.

For what it's worth...


 
addi Posted: Sun Feb 5 16:38:20 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
The truth lies somewhere in the middle, waiting to be found.

yup

Run for office, kuro. I'd vote for you


 
addi Posted: Mon Feb 6 09:35:57 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  and the insanity continues...


KABUL, Afghanistan - Hundreds of Afghans clashed with police and soldiers Monday during demonstrations against the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. Four people were killed and at least 19 wounded, officials said.

In southern Iraq, several thousand Iraqis rallied to demand severing all ties with countries in which the caricatures were published.
The protest witnessed the burning of Danish, German and Israeli flags and an effigy of Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen. Protesters called for the death of anyone who insults Muhammad and demanded withdrawal of 530-member Danish military contingent operating under British control.

This is only a part of the article. Demostrations were happening all over the globe.



 
addi Posted: Mon Feb 6 09:43:01 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  things like this are precisely the reason I stay away from organized religion...all of them. To some degree they've all turned god into a petty, revengeful, hateful diety.

the lunatics are running the asylum.


 
FN Posted: Mon Feb 6 11:03:31 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/helt_sjef/outrage.jpg



An update from my part of the world, where things are heating up and public outrage is escalating at quite rapid speeds:


People here are pissed off, both at the muslims, but as well because of the US reaction, which basicly sides with the criminals in the streets.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Feb 6 12:37:36 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Anybody remember Andres Serrano and his piece of art called Piss Christ ?
He submerged a crucifix in a jar of his own urine and called it art.
He even put it on display using federal dollars from the National Endowment for the Arts.

Anybody remember all the violent demonstrations that occurred because of this ? The people who were injured in the street riots ? The Christians who were up in arms demanding the head of the so-called artist ?

Nah, no one remembers this because it never happened. It caused a little bit of excitement in the press and most of the Christians simply ignored it.
This is a very good illustration of the differences between the Muslim world and the rest of the world.

This bullshit that is going on now because of a cartoon ? You say it's only a fringe element of Islam causing all the mayhem ? why is it thousands upon thousands demonstrating in every country in Europe and the middle east ?
The so-called fringe element seems to be getting larger by the minute.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure it's gonna be painful.
If Islam is going to coexist with the rest of the world, then it must be introduced to modern times. Times where women are the equal of men, where individual freedoms exist for all, where public beheadings do not happen.
End of rant . . .


 
addi Posted: Mon Feb 6 12:48:16 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
You say it's only a fringe element of Islam causing all the mayhem ?

Who say?


 
FN Posted: Mon Feb 6 13:26:57 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.arabeuropean.org/article.php?ID=97&PHPSESSID=ec7a1681aa8e8e9e482a3e6c0fdfff66


 
addi Posted: Mon Feb 6 13:43:51 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>http://www.arabeuropean.org/article.php?ID=97&PHPSESSID=ec7a1681aa8e8e9e482a3e6c0fdfff66


All Muslims living in european countries at this time need to find some common ground and understanding with their "host" countries..they don't need to be faning the flames of hatred and ignorance. No good can come from it.


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Feb 6 19:12:46 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>ANGRY LOUD STUFF



Shit man! Calm down for fucks sake, don't post when you're tired and already in a bad mood from other things.



Moderate muslims are alright. But the radicals ones still need to pull the stick from their ass.




 
maybeitwillwork Posted: Tue Feb 7 02:21:02 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  "All Muslims living in european countries at this time need to find some common ground and understanding with their "host" countries..they don't need to be faning the flames of hatred and ignorance. No good can come from it."

For starters what you need to understand is that Muslims living in European countries are not all immigrants many have lived there for generations. Those are not their "host" countries, but in fact their only countries. They are in as much a part of those countries as of the other citizens, and should be treated with the same kind of respect.

You say that they don't need to be fanning the flames of hatred; they are not the ones who started. You should be telling the same thing to the newspapers that printed the cartoons. With a little foresight on the part of the newspaper publishers this whole situation could have been avoided. I'm in no way opposed to full freedom of the press but I believe that people should use their better judgment about what they say and publish. It is clearly obvious that the cartoons were going to enrage the Islamic communities, but they were still published and for what a slight increase in sales. I ask is the profit made off the publishing of these cartoons really worth all the trouble they have caused. Printing something that is offensive should not be done if you are doing it should to offend or make a slim profit.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 7 07:10:44 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  maybeitwillwork said:

>You say that they don't need to be fanning the flames of hatred; they are not the ones who started. You should be telling the same thing to the newspapers that printed the cartoons. With a little foresight on the part of the newspaper publishers this whole situation could have been avoided. I'm in no way opposed to full freedom of the press but I believe that people should use their better judgment about what they say and publish. It is clearly obvious that the cartoons were going to enrage the Islamic communities, but they were still published and for what a slight increase in sales. I ask is the profit made off the publishing of these cartoons really worth all the trouble they have caused. Printing something that is offensive should not be done if you are doing it should to offend or make a slim profit.
>
No, it was not clearly obvious these cartoons were going to cause death and destruction by a bunch of crazy stupid people.
Clearly anyone has the right to be offended by a political cartoon, no matter what the artists' intentions were, but NO ONE has the right to demand that everyone on the planet carefully observe the religious sensibilities of one particular group of people.
I have seen Jesus, Moses, Buddha, and virtually every other deity I can think of, lampooned mercilessly in all manner of ways and for the most part, no one was killed or buildings burned because of it.
I am not Muslim, you have no right to demand that I observe the tenets of your religion on pain of death. Fuck you !


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 7 07:47:55 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  maybeitwillwork said:

>For starters what you need to understand is that Muslims living in European countries are not all immigrants many have lived there for generations. Those are not their "host" countries, but in fact their only countries. They are in as much a part of those countries as of the other citizens, and should be treated with the same kind of respect.

Since you quoted my post I'll respond. First of all welcome to the forum. Glad to have another opinion on the table.

I stand partially corrected regarding my statement about muslims and their host countries. I understand that there are, for example, muslims living in France that have been there for generations, and are therefore "french" in most respects. I was speaking of relatively new immigrants to various european countries and overgeneralized.
However I must add that there are cases when a certain ethnic or religious group has lived in a country for generations and have still remained separate from that country's culture. They're physically living there, but separate in many other important respects.

>You say that they don't need to be fanning the flames of hatred; they are not the ones who started. You should be telling the same thing to the newspapers that printed the cartoons.

I guess I need to clarify that I was never defending the choice of any publisher to print those cartoons. Whoever gave the go ahead was lacking foresight on the consequences, given the volatile nature of so many muslims today.
My beef with the protesting muslims is that they made their case, the offenders publically apologised, and still they carry on like the "unpardonable sin" had been committed. Furthermore, muslims from countries nowhere near Europe are demonstrating as if their hometown newspapers were the guilty ones. It smacks too much as if they're just looking for any ol' reason to make a scene...sadly, like a bunch of drunk frat boys looking to pick a fight.

Lastly, I have very strong feelings that followers of ANY major world religion need to temper their righteous indignation with reason, forgiveness, and love for their fellow human. I just have a difficult time believing that this side of Islam is representing the true values and beliefs of the Koran (just as I believe today's American Christian fundamentalists don't represent the teachings of Christ).

Muslims had a perfect opportunity to do some mending of the fence here. Instead their actions seem to be widening the gulf between muslims and non-believers, and that is bad news for both sides.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 7 10:40:01 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The Hypocrisy of the Cartoon Campaign
By Sharon Lapkin



It took the Muslim world three months to bring Denmark to its knees. Robert Spencer had sadly declared, “We’re all dhimmis now.” To Muslims all over the world, Denmark had been rightfully shamed. But many Westerners were saddened that the Danes had succumbed to threats and bullying and, more importantly, that none of us had cherished our freedom of speech enough to fight for it.


But then a small revolution began breaking out in America and all over Europe. Political journalist Michelle Malkin courageously defended freedom of speech on her website. Next, France’s daily newspaper France Soir took a stand against Islamic intimidation (although the editor was later dismissed). Then Germany’s Die Welt and Der Spiegel, were joined by Italy’s La Stampa and the Catalan-based, El Periódico. And in a brave move, Dutch politician Geert Wilders reproduced the whole scandalous incident on his website. Vive La Revolution!



When the Danish newspaper, Iyllands-Posten published twelve cartoons last October depicting the prophet Mohammad, it received so many threats it had to hire security guards to protect its staff. The Pakistani Jamaaat-e-Islami party offered a large reward to anyone who killed any of the cartoonists. And a number of the cartoonists – terrified for their lives – went into hiding.



Muslims lobbied the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, who warned, “I find alarming any behaviours that disregard the beliefs of others. This kind of thing is unacceptable.” Then she announced an investigation into racism and Islamophobia.



Muslim Ambassadors from eleven countries demanded a meeting with the Danish Prime Minister, and thousands of Muslim protestors took to Denmark’s cobbled streets. In the Kashmir Valley, shops and businesses closed for a day to protest the cartoons. And Al-Azhar, the highest authority in the Sunni Islamic world, declared he intended to protest the drawing of Mohamed to the UN and human rights organizations around the world.



In January, the imam at the Islamic Center in Brussels denounced the cartoons. “Where are the human rights organizations? Why are they silent?” he demanded. And the Muslim World League called on UN Secretary Kofi Annan to implement international laws against insolence of religions.



In Saudi Arabia, Muslims threatened to boycott Danish Company, Aria Foods, and one supermarket was reportedly removing Danish produce from its shelves. Masked gunmen in Gaza stormed into the EU office and demanded that Denmark and Norway apologize for publishing the cartoons; they then banned citizens from both counties until an apology was made. The Danish Red Cross were forced to evacuate their employees after concrete threats were made against them. And the following day, thousands of Palestinians protested and burned Danish flags as they chanted, “War on Denmark, Death to Denmark.”



In Iraq, a roadside bomb was said to target a joint Danish-Iraqi patrol and Libya announced it was closing its embassy in Denmark. The Emirate’s Minister of Justice stated that publishing the cartoons had been “blasphemous, disgusting and irresponsible.” And 17 foreign ministers from the Arabian League called for the editors responsible for publishing the cartoons to be “punished.”



On January 30, the Egyptian government refused to discuss a matter of $72.5 million loaned to it by Denmark. And Bill Clinton decided that freedom of speech was not worth defending. When the former President was in Qatari explaining to reporters how “appalling” and “outrageous” the cartoons were, the journalists at Iyllands-Posten were evacuating their offices due to a bomb threat by the devastated Islamic victims Clinton was defending.



As the Islamic world intimidates and threatens the West with violence and economic boycotting, it is important to examine the Islamic response in its entirety and put this event into historical context. When Danish Muslim leaders recently toured the Islamic world with a 43-page report protesting the twelve cartoons published by Iyllands-Posten, they inserted an extra three into the Report for good measure. The Brussells Journal reported that the extra cartoons depicted Mohamed as a pedophile and a pigsnout, with a third, portraying a praying Muslim being raped by a dog.



Akhmad Akkari, spokesperson for the Muslim organizations involved in the tour, told The Brussels Journal that the three extra cartoons had been added to “give an insight in how hateful the atmosphere in Denmark is towards Muslims.” The 21 Danish Muslim organizations protesting the publication of pictures of their prophet, Mohamed, considered it appropriate to distort the truth in order to shame those, who it had perceived, had dishonored Islam.



But – even granted this concession – Mohamed has been visually represented throughout the centuries in hundreds of different mediums. The popular blog Little Green Footballs has published dozens of illustrations of Mohamed that have never generated an outraged Muslim or claims of blasphemy.



From book illustrations, including French book jackets to medieval paintings and Dante’s Inferno and Iranian icons, there has never been a murmur of protest from the Islamic world. In contemporary Christian drawings and animated television parodies Mohamed has been portrayed visually – again and again – without a word of complaint from any Muslim organization or spokesperson.



When France Soir published the Mohamed cartoons, it claimed it was doing so in provocation and stated, “We will never apologize for being free to speak and think.” However, the owner of the newspaper moved quickly to dismiss the Editor and apologize to the Muslim community.



German newspapers, Die Welt reprinted six of the cartoons and Der Spiegel examined the status of free speech in Europe while the BBC reported on the paper’s editorial, which stated, ”The protests from Muslims would be taken more seriously if they were less hypocritical.”



Dutch Politician, Geert Wilder is already the recipient of death threats for his criticism of radical Islam. Fellow Dutch MP, Sudanese Muslim activist Ayaan Hirsi Ali supported the Danish newspaper for publishing the cartoons and said, “It’s necessary to taunt Muslims on their relationship with Mohammed.”



Freedom of speech is a jewel in the crown of democracy. If the Western world is afraid to speak, write or to draw, it may as well succumb to the oppression and fear that characterizes the Islamic world. Tolerating the intolerable enables the aggressive culture to dominate and it nurtures its agenda of inequity.



Recently, a young Muslim immigrant in the UK was granted a subsidy from the Ministry for Culture to publish a poster advertising his play. He chose to depict a bare-breasted Virgin Mary holding a howling baby and a bowl of blood. And he announced, “I think one should be able to laugh at anything, even at anti-Semitism.”



When the Muslim World League lobbied the UN over a drawing of Mohamed with a burning fuse in his turban while simultaneously demanding respect for the Muslim religion, it appears it was ignoring its own hypocrisy.




 
FN Posted: Tue Feb 7 11:34:15 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  maybeitwillwork said:
>They are in as much a part of those countries as of the other citizens, and should be treated with the same kind of respect.
>

>they are not the ones who started. You should be telling the same thing to the newspapers that printed the cartoons. With a little foresight on the part of the newspaper publishers this whole situation could have been avoided.
>I'm in no way opposed to full freedom of the press but I believe that people should use their better judgment about what they say and publish.

>I ask is the profit made off the publishing of these cartoons really worth all the trouble they have caused. Printing something that is offensive should not be done if you are doing it should to offend or make a slim profit.
>


I've been spending the last few days doing nothing but discuss this situation and debating it, I've heard all the utter crap you and your allies are spewing, and I'm sick and tired of it.

Not only that, but coming close to enraged, something I don't say that easily, as many here will probably recognize.



You don't have a clue, my friend, so shut the fuck up.


 
FN Posted: Tue Feb 7 11:37:21 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I was a racist before, now I'm coming close to supporting mass deportations and open civil war.

This is the general feeling in europe, I'm not kidding, people here have come to a point where they don't stand for the bullshit anymore.




Run, camelfuckers.

Sue me.


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 7 12:00:16 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Males are so quick to try to solve their problems by beating the shit out of someone else. It may even feel damn good at the moment, but the long term consequences are rarely given any thought. We tried the shock and awe brute force strategy in Iraq and look where it's got us now.
The one sure thing that will exacerbate this little skirmish into all out WWIII is to think with our fists instead of our brains.

What this mess needs right now is calm clear-headed female leaders in European countries, and a woman president in the U.S.
Us males have had our shot and we've clearly been found wanting.


 
maybeitwillwork Posted: Tue Feb 7 12:10:40 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  to ifihadahif

I never said that you had to observe the trends of any religious group to the pain of death. It also appears that you have assumed that I am Muslim, I'm not.

All I was trying to say is that, this whole situation could have been avoided. Journalists should have learned by now that some groups of Muslims react in violent ways to most anything that goes against their beliefs. And knowing this they should stop provoking them, it accomplishes nothing.



 
maybeitwillwork Posted: Tue Feb 7 12:17:41 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  This is a pointless discussion. The final thing I'm going to say is this.

The cartoons should not have been published; the backlash from the Muslim communities should have been expected.

Secondly the Muslim community has over reacted. The most they should have done is asked for an apology if anything.

There is no right side here, they are both at fault.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 7 12:18:45 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Males are so quick to try to solve their problems by beating the shit out of someone else. It may even feel damn good at the moment, but the long term consequences are rarely given any thought. We tried the shock and awe brute force strategy in Iraq and look where it's got us now.
>
Yeah, were helping to build the only democracy anywhere in the middle east.
How awful !
Have you forgotten the 12 years of diplomacy we tried before we used our military ?
>The one sure thing that will exacerbate this little skirmish into all out WWIII is to think with our fists instead of our brains.
>
Exacerbate this little skirmish ?
This is a little skirmish ?
You don't think we aren't already in ww3 ?
>What this mess needs right now is calm clear-headed female leaders in European countries, and a woman president in the U.S.
>
Yep, Condi Rice and Margaret Thatcher would probably do well if only it were possible.
>Us males have had our shot and we've clearly been found wanting.
>
Yeah, those muslims would probably respond well to a woman in charge eh ?

"Our enemies may be irrational, even outright insane, driven by nationalism, religion, ethnicity or ideology. They do not fear the United States for its diplomatic skills or the number of automobiles and software programs it produces. They respect only the firepower of our tanks, planes and helicopter gunships." —Ronald Reagan


 
maybeitwillwork Posted: Tue Feb 7 12:30:10 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Yeah, were helping to build the only democracy anywhere in the middle east.
>How awful !
>Have you forgotten the 12 years of diplomacy we tried before we used our military ?


You can't just force democracy on people who don't want you helping. Even if it is a better system, it going to fall apart as soon as the US leaves. Lets not start on Iraq. It won't end well.

And before you even get the idea, I'm not saying that Saddam should have been left in power. I'm just saying the post war situation is not being handled well.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 7 12:40:23 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  maybeitwillwork said:
>This is a pointless discussion. The final thing I'm going to say is this.
>
>The cartoons should not have been published; the backlash from the Muslim communities should have been expected.
>
>Secondly the Muslim community has over reacted. The most they should have done is asked for an apology if anything.
>
>There is no right side here, they are both at fault.
>
No, only the muslims are at fault here.
They have no right to ask for an apology anymore than Israel will ask for an apology for the Jewish lampooning that has gone on daily for many many years in the Arab press.
No one should have to apologize for exercising their freedom of speech, ever.
Particularly a government shouldn't have to apologize for something a private enterprise has published. The government has no control over that in a free country.
Would I personally publish something so offensive ? No, I wouldn't, but I would defend to the death, your right to do so. That is what freedom of speech is all about. And the Muslim community in Europe and the Middle East don't seem to get it, they want to have their cake and eat it too.
In their eyes it's ok to lampoon Judaeism and Christianity but not Islam.
How hypocritic is that ?

Our free press should never have to sugarcoat anything just because it might be offensive to someone, when that happens you no long have a free press. It's called censorship.
You say we should censor ourselves so the criminals won't be offended and start a riot ? Bullshit.

Islam once led the world in technology and commerce. It was a magnificent culture that has now been reduced to a culture of hatred and hypocrisy.


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 7 12:52:07 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Yeah, were helping to build the only democracy anywhere in the middle east.
>How awful !

Sarcasm noted.
So tell me, hif..has our complete military supremacy and might brought them to their knees yet?

>Have you forgotten the 12 years of diplomacy we tried before we used our military ?


>This is a little skirmish ?
>You don't think we aren't already in ww3 ?

The fuss over the cartoons. That IS what we were talking about.
And we are nowhere near the point of how bad it could be, or how much all out warfare could spread to more countries. No, this is not WWIII....yet. I'm hoping calmer heads prevail.


>Yeah, those muslims would probably respond well to a woman in charge eh ?

So how would you assess the response so far from "those muslims" towards the men in charge; Bush, Cheney, and Blair?




 
maybeitwillwork Posted: Tue Feb 7 13:09:07 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

The Muslims are mostly to blame, but the publishers of the cartoons should at the very least stop printing them. Yes it's censorship but better then having people riot and deaths result.

>No one should have to apologize for exercising their freedom of speech, ever.

I completely agree with this, no one should ever have to. But at times it's better if they do, not because they have to but because it will help calm a side.

>In their eyes it's ok to lampoon Judaeism and Christianity but not Islam.
>How hypocritic is that ?

It is hypocritical, but it still happens, and they should not be provoked needlessly.

>Our free press should never have to sugarcoat anything just because it might be offensive to someone, when that happens you no long have a free press. It's called censorship.
>You say we should censor ourselves so the criminals won't be offended and start a riot ? Bullshit.

So are you saying that the press should have the right to publish what ever it want, I agree with you it should have the right. But if what they publish causes a riot that leads to deaths, what then that is to blame? I would say those who rioted, but at the same time the riot would never have occurred if the press had not published. Yes they have the right to publish anything but they also have the moral duties, and they should not cause a riot.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 7 13:35:29 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>Yeah, were helping to build the only democracy anywhere in the middle east.
>>How awful !
>
>Sarcasm noted.
>So tell me, hif..has our complete military supremacy and might brought them to their knees yet?
>
Where is Saddam and his vaunted Republican Guard ?
Contrast the number of Iraqis who have voted to the number of insurgents.
Note that the number of insurgent attacks are down 80 percent over this time last year and still declining.
What do you think ?
>>Have you forgotten the 12 years of diplomacy we tried before we used our military ?
>
>>Yeah, those muslims would probably respond well to a woman in charge eh ?
>
> So how would you assess the response so far from "those muslims" towards the men in charge; Bush, Cheney, and Blair?
>
Ask someone who has been in the field in Iraq. They will tell you they have cleaner more abundant water and sewers.
Their daughters are going to school now.
Their utilities are much better than before, and their economy has grown by leaps and bounds.


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 7 13:42:46 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  You have donned your texas rosey red sunglasses again I see...making any further discussion on my part pointless.
These guys really have done a number on your brain, hif. I'm beginning to think it's too late to save you.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 7 13:55:19 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  maybeitwillwork said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>The Muslims are mostly to blame, but the publishers of the cartoons should at the very least stop printing them. Yes it's censorship but better then having people riot and deaths result.
>
>>No one should have to apologize for exercising their freedom of speech, ever.
>
>I completely agree with this, no one should ever have to. But at times it's better if they do, not because they have to but because it will help calm a side.
>
>>In their eyes it's ok to lampoon Judaeism and Christianity but not Islam.
>>How hypocritic is that ?
>
>It is hypocritical, but it still happens, and they should not be provoked needlessly.
>
>>Our free press should never have to sugarcoat anything just because it might be offensive to someone, when that happens you no long have a free press. It's called censorship.
>>You say we should censor ourselves so the criminals won't be offended and start a riot ? Bullshit.
>
>So are you saying that the press should have the right to publish what ever it want, I agree with you it should have the right. But if what they publish causes a riot that leads to deaths, what then that is to blame? I would say those who rioted, but at the same time the riot would never have occurred if the press had not published. Yes they have the right to publish anything but they also have the moral duties, and they should not cause a riot.
>
You are preaching a doctrine of appeasement. Not gonna fly here with that crap. Appeasement only makes them stronger.

Tell me how was the press supposed to know this would happen ?
There were no protests when the same cartoons were published last year.

From the article posted above:
Mohamed has been visually represented throughout the centuries in hundreds of different mediums. The popular blog Little Green Footballs has published dozens of illustrations of Mohamed that have never generated an outraged Muslim or claims of blasphemy.

From book illustrations, including French book jackets to medieval paintings and Dante’s Inferno and Iranian icons, there has never been a murmur of protest from the Islamic world. In contemporary Christian drawings and animated television parodies Mohamed has been portrayed visually – again and again – without a word of complaint from any Muslim organization or spokesperson.



 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 7 14:51:32 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  www.google.com

type in asshole

click on "I'm Feeling Lucky"

kinda sums things up for me.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 7 15:24:56 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>www.google.com
>
>type in asshole
>
>click on "I'm Feeling Lucky"
>
>kinda sums things up for me.
>
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and Ronald Reagan all got the same treatment.
Dubya is in good company.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Feb 7 15:28:11 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  maybeitwillwork said:
>This is a pointless discussion. The final thing I'm going to say is this.
>
>The cartoons should not have been published; the backlash from the Muslim communities should have been expected.
>



But that's the thing though, is it shouldn't have been expected. It's by far not the first time Islam has been poked fun of in the media, and definitely not the first time Mohammed has been portrayed the media. Yet none of the other instances caused anywhere near the amount of backlash these 12 cartoons have. And the backlash against the cartoons wouldn't be happening, five months after they were published, if it were not for people like Imam Ahmad Abu Laban going on a tour of Muslim countries and telling everyone. Not just that, but as I understand it cartoons which where for more offensive and were never even published by Jyllands-Posten were taken and people in the Mid-East were being told that these cartoons had been published also. This whole issue is being hijacked by extremists...on both sides, who want to keep people enraged and increase hate and distrust.




http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/


That's just the tip of the iceberg of past images of Mohammed, none of which caused anything near the outrage being seen today. The good stuff starts about halfway down the page.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Feb 7 15:30:53 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  maybeitwillwork said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>Yeah, were helping to build the only democracy anywhere in the middle east.
>>How awful !
>>Have you forgotten the 12 years of diplomacy we tried before we used our military ?
>
>
>You can't just force democracy on people who don't want you helping. Even if it is a better system, it going to fall apart as soon as the US leaves. Lets not start on Iraq. It won't end well.
>


Now that I definitely agree with there. Pretty silly to expect the Iraqis to welcome any foreign army with open arms and smiles on their faces, no matter what the foreigners stated intentions were.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Feb 7 15:41:40 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  PS. Welcome to the forums, maybeitwillwork.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 7 16:43:43 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  meshuggah said:
>maybeitwillwork said:
>>This is a pointless discussion. The final thing I'm going to say is this.
>>
>>The cartoons should not have been published; the backlash from the Muslim communities should have been expected.
>>
>
>
>
>But that's the thing though, is it shouldn't have been expected. It's by far not the first time Islam has been poked fun of in the media, and definitely not the first time Mohammed has been portrayed the media. Yet none of the other instances caused anywhere near the amount of backlash these 12 cartoons have. And the backlash against the cartoons wouldn't be happening, five months after they were published, if it were not for people like Imam Ahmad Abu Laban going on a tour of Muslim countries and telling everyone. Not just that, but as I understand it cartoons which where for more offensive and were never even published by Jyllands-Posten were taken and people in the Mid-East were being told that these cartoons had been published also. This whole issue is being hijacked by extremists...on both sides, who want to keep people enraged and increase hate and distrust.
>
>
>
>
>http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/
>
>
>That's just the tip of the iceberg of past images of Mohammed, none of which caused anything near the outrage being seen today. The good stuff starts about halfway down the page.
>
There is even a sculpture of Mohammed in the US Supreme Court.


 
FN Posted: Tue Feb 7 17:19:05 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://ekstrabladet.dk/grafik/nettet/tegninger39.jpg
http://ekstrabladet.dk/grafik/nettet/tegninger40.jpg

These are the cartoons the danish imams added to the original 12, and which they claimed to be published all over Denmark and Europe along with the original 12.

They further claimed that muslims were not allowed to pray in Denmark and that muslims were systematicly persecuted.




But yeah, it's the fault of those damn cartoonists and their evil ways.


 
FN Posted: Tue Feb 7 17:20:39 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And I don't want to alarm you mesh but your girlfriend looks at me like she wants me.

Better keep her away, because I just might not resist.


 
Mesh Posted: Tue Feb 7 17:21:45 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And another thing that was claimed was that the Danish government is going to release a censored version of the Quran.




 
maybeitwillwork Posted: Tue Feb 7 21:29:31 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  True they have not reacted before; this backlash against the cartoons is also largely the result of already angry people looking for anything to jump at. The Muslim groups are irritated by the U.S occupation of Iraq, and by several other events.


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 7 21:59:42 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  maybeitwillwork said:
>The Muslim groups are irritated by the U.S occupation of Iraq, and by several other events.

But we're spreading democracy to the middle east, so it's worth it. Why just look at what democratic elections have done in Palestine and Iran. And so what if a bloody civil war breaks out in Iraq after we pull out...they'll be living in a democracy.


 
maybeitwillwork Posted: Tue Feb 7 23:18:51 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:

>But we're spreading democracy to the middle east, so it's worth it. Why just look at what democratic elections have done in Palestine and Iran. And so what if a bloody civil war breaks out in Iraq after we pull out...they'll be living in a democracy.


I agree in the long run what the US is doing will be a good thing, but there will also be many negative reproductions, but that can't be helped. Iraq will be a better place one day because of democracy. It's just going to be a very long and hard road to get there.


 
addi Posted: Wed Feb 8 07:27:18 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  maybeitwillwork said:

>I agree in the long run what the US is doing will be a good thing, but there will also be many negative reproductions, but that can't be helped. Iraq will be a better place one day because of democracy. It's just going to be a very long and hard road to get there.

I was being sarcastic, maybeitwon'twork. I get that way a lot here. You're new here so i'll excuse it, but don't let it happen again.

: )

And perhaps you're right, Iraq may turn out to be a better place down the road. The question I have is at what price? Will the thousands of young soldiers lives taken justify the result? Will the tens of thousands of Iraqi civilian lives taken before this ends be worth it? When it turns out that they won't live in a true rule of law democracy, but find themselves living under an Islamic theocratic governing authority, that gives lip service to democracy, but bars non-muslim worship, represses women, and denies other human rights?

Is that all worth it?
I suspect it will depend on who you ask.
Hif (and other conservative hawks) would say, "Hell yes it's worth it!" The parents of a dead 19 year old american soldier, or a young Iraqi female that lost most of her family from insurgent guns and road bombs may have different responses.


 
FN Posted: Wed Feb 8 08:18:18 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://thepoliticker.observer.com/2006/02/ny-press-kills-cartoons-staff-walks-out.html


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Feb 8 08:19:05 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Is that all worth it?
>I suspect it will depend on who you ask.
>Hif (and other conservative hawks) would say, "Hell yes it's worth it!" The parents of a dead 19 year old american soldier, or a young Iraqi female that lost most of her family from insurgent guns and road bombs may have different responses.
>
Maybe, maybe not, you ignore the fact that our military is 100% voluntary and that many parents of fallen soldiers are proud of the service of their sons and daughters in the service of freedom.

You speak so touchingly of the young Iraqi female that lost most of her family from insurgent guns and road bombs, but you have nothing to say about the young Iraqi female that had to endure Saddams' rape rooms while most of her family were forced to watch before they were committed to a mass grave.



 
addi Posted: Wed Feb 8 08:47:07 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Maybe, maybe not, you ignore the fact that our military is 100% voluntary and that many parents of fallen soldiers are proud of the service of their sons and daughters in the service of freedom.

And you're guilty of not recognizing that there is a growing number of outspoken soldiers, officers, and parents of those soldiers that are very proud to serve our country, but very angry about having to do it for this questionable cause. But of course you wouldn't be aware of that because all your news is gotten from Fox or right wing web sites, and news like that doesn't get aired.

>You speak so touchingly of the young Iraqi female that lost most of her family from insurgent guns and road bombs, but you have nothing to say about the young Iraqi female that had to endure Saddams' rape rooms while most of her family were forced to watch before they were committed to a mass grave.

God you really do piss me off sometimes, hif. You speak from such ignorance.
Check out my history here. Show me one goddamn post in support of that asshat Saddam that I've made. But in your world if someone questions this war, then they automatically think it was acceptable that Saddam was still raping young women. In your little world if someone questions our motives for being in this fucking war, then we are unpatriotic and not supporting our troops.
Try to comprehend this fact:
Because Saddamn was a horrible dictator does not equate to our invasion of Iraq as justified. Look at some global news these days. Count how many other "saddams" there are out there doing things too horrible to mention. Is that a tragic horrible thing? Yes. Does it justify invading every one of those countires as well? (you'll have to answer that one).

So save your "Saddam was an evil man" arguement for the dimwits that swallow that shit. I'm not one of them.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Feb 8 09:32:57 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>Maybe, maybe not, you ignore the fact that our military is 100% voluntary and that many parents of fallen soldiers are proud of the service of their sons and daughters in the service of freedom.
>
>And you're guilty of not recognizing that there is a growing number of outspoken soldiers, officers, and parents of those soldiers that are very proud to serve our country, but very angry about having to do it for this questionable cause. But of course you wouldn't be aware of that because all your news is gotten from Fox or right wing web sites, and news like that doesn't get aired.
>
Bullshit, there have always been outspoken member of the military and they do get exposure on Fox and conservative websites. That's the difference between them and the mainstream media, they show both points of view whereas you don't get that on ABC.
The thing is, when you volunteer for our military, you don't volunteer to fight only the wars you are politically in tune with. You don't join up, and then quit because you disagree with the administration that got voted in after you got sworn in.
You could never have an effective military that way.

>>You speak so touchingly of the young Iraqi female that lost most of her family from insurgent guns and road bombs, but you have nothing to say about the young Iraqi female that had to endure Saddams' rape rooms while most of her family were forced to watch before they were committed to a mass grave.
>
>God you really do piss me off sometimes, hif. You speak from such ignorance.
>Check out my history here. Show me one goddamn post in support of that asshat Saddam that I've made. But in your world if someone questions this war, then they automatically think it was acceptable that Saddam was still raping young women. In your little world if someone questions our motives for being in this fucking war, then we are unpatriotic and not supporting our troops.
>
And I have never ever said you were unpatriotic. Not one goddam time !
I questioned your intelligence a time or two, but have never accused you of being unpatriotic.
I was adding balance to your statement and if it pisses you off then so be it, you get so bitchy sometimes I can hear your moans all the way from Atlanta !

The simple fact is, if you agree that Iraq is better of without Saddam, you can't have him out without our invasion.
It's ludicrous to say that taking him out was wrong simply because we don't take out every despot on the planet.

>Try to comprehend this fact:
>Because Saddamn was a horrible dictator does not equate to our invasion of Iraq as justified. Look at some global news these days. Count how many other "saddams" there are out there doing things too horrible to mention. Is that a tragic horrible thing? Yes. Does it justify invading every one of those countires as well? (you'll have to answer that one).
>
>So save your "Saddam was an evil man" arguement for the dimwits that swallow that shit. I'm not one of them.
>
I didn't make the "saddam was an evil man" argument, as stated before, I was adding balance to your touching argument about the young Iraqi girl whose family was destroyed by the insurgents and IED's.
You are so blinded by your unfounded hated of this administration that you can't see things as they really are.
Iraq was most definitely a threat, as Iran surely is now and how would you deal with this idiot who is much more volatile than Saddam ?



 
maybeitwillwork Posted: Wed Feb 8 09:44:40 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  At what price?

That is a very good question. It also happens to be one that we will probably never know the answer to. Yes we know how many US solders have died so far, but as of yet I have not heard even once in US new how many Iraqi casualties there have been.

It is a fact that in every war there are civilian casualties, and this is the number we well never know. The US doesn't allow photographers or journalists to go into Iraqi hospitals. They don't want negative images about the war getting out. I wonder what opinion people would have of the war if what's happening to the civilians.


 
FN Posted: Wed Feb 8 17:37:40 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Americans don't allow pictures, muslims don't even allow sketchy drawings.



Not that that clears the US in any way in the matter, but any stick will do to take a swing at "the moslim community" for me at the moment.


 
FN Posted: Sun Feb 19 19:09:07 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.zipperfish.net/free/yaafm12.php


 
Beep Posted: Sun Feb 19 19:12:39 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Heh, it has always struck me, when they burn the flag of a country they aren't burning my flag, they're burning their flag. they're the ones that went to the shop and bought it. heh.
For my retirement i may go and live in a country with lots of religious extremists and open up a flag shop...


 
Ed Posted: Sun Feb 19 20:04:41 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  brilliant!


 



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