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Tragedy in Amish country
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Oct 4 07:56:05 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm sure most of you have heard of the tragedy in Lancaster county Pennsylvania where Charles Roberts took control of a one room Amish schoolhouse and killed 5 young girls aged 8 to 13 and injured several others before killing himself.
It's been plastered all over the news ad nauseum for the past couple of days.

One of the things that really touched me was the fact that the Amish who were affected by this tragedy were very concerned for the wife and three children of the shooter who are not Amish. They have already forgiven the shooter and plan to send flowers and visit with his family to help comfort them in this very difficult time.

Damn those evil Christians and their evil forgiving ways !


 
Ahriman Posted: Wed Oct 4 08:15:23 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  We drive down occasionally to Amish country. Not very far from here. Their jams and chairs are amazing.


 
addi Posted: Wed Oct 4 08:37:13 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Colorado, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania school shootings.

Senator Foley fuckin' with the minds of underage males.

More bombing deaths in Baghdad.

Growing racial and ethnic distrust in our cities.

The list goes on and on from current events here and across the world.

I try to stay upbeat, hopeful and optimistic in my outlook, but every now and then it does get to me.
I have this urge to crawl into bed, get in a fetal position, and escape to a peaceful dream...even if it's only a temporary fix.


 
DanSRose Posted: Wed Oct 4 09:00:22 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  This is where I'd try to include a snappy sarcastic comeback. But no.
The Amish are innocents, even if they do bad things every once in a while; they are Good people. They have almost sealed themselves from the terrible outside world.
They're forgiving the shooter, trying to aid his family. That's hope-giving.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Oct 4 09:07:12 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  It hasn't really changed all that much.
IF you go back and read the news from 5, 10, 15, or 20yrs ago, you will see much of the same lunacy that we see today.
The really big difference is our ability to see the news on the internet at work, at home, on our cell phones, everywhere we go we have access to current events, much of the time as they are happening.

Seems to me we could learn much from the Amish.


 
Ahriman Posted: Wed Oct 4 09:16:17 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  and Bob Barker


 
Kira Posted: Wed Oct 4 13:19:37 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Forgive me for being a total ass in the wake of tragedy, but the Amish are a backwards-thinking cult, albeit a benevolent one, and Bob Barker is an animal rights nut. I don't think I can learn much from either. No disrespect to the families of the deceased.


 
addi Posted: Wed Oct 4 14:21:55 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Kelly McGillis is Amish...and she's benevolently hot!

Can I get a Witness?



*I had no idea Bob Barker was Amish


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Oct 4 14:39:04 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Randy Quaid is Amish too, but he's not so hot.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Oct 4 14:45:26 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Kira said:
>Forgive me for being a total ass in the wake of tragedy, but the Amish are a backwards-thinking cult, albeit a benevolent one, and Bob Barker is an animal rights nut. I don't think I can learn much from either. No disrespect to the families of the deceased.
>
I don't think that living without modern technology is necessarily "backwards thinking", it's not for me, but it's not backwards either, just different. Have you ever visited with the Amish ? They don't want for anything.
I think their capacity for forgiveness, especially in the wake of a tragedy like this one, is something we could all learn from.
How many of us could forgive the man who shot our baby sisters in cold blood ?
How many of us would be worried about his widow and her now fatherless children ?


 
Kira Posted: Wed Oct 4 15:08:14 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'll agree that it takes a certain strength of character to forgive someone like that - BUT, I disagree with the idea that forgiveness is inherently virtuous and benefecial. Now, Roberts does not deserve forgiveness for what he did, but if forgiving his actions is what gives the families strength and helps them turn their attentions towards the living, I'm all for it. Hating him and anyone associated with him will undoubtedly only worsen their grief, but nor do I think it necessary to forgive in order to move on.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Oct 4 15:15:30 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Kira said:
>I'll agree that it takes a certain strength of character to forgive someone like that - BUT, I disagree with the idea that forgiveness is inherently virtuous and benefecial. Now, Roberts does not deserve forgiveness for what he did, but if forgiving his actions is what gives the families strength and helps them turn their attentions towards the living, I'm all for it. Hating him and anyone associated with him will undoubtedly only worsen their grief, but nor do I think it necessary to forgive in order to move on.
>

Who are we to judge those that deserve forgiveness and those that do not ?

Where does one draw that line ?

Perhaps if Mr. Roberts had the same capacity to forgive as his victims, maybe the whole episode never would have happened.



 
Kira Posted: Wed Oct 4 15:19:05 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>
>Who are we to judge those that deserve forgiveness and those that do not ?
>
>Where does one draw that line ?
>
>Perhaps if Mr. Roberts had the same capacity to forgive as his victims, maybe the whole episode never would have happened.
>

If he were alive right now would you still think this way? Just asking.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Oct 4 15:35:25 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Kira said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>
>>Who are we to judge those that deserve forgiveness and those that do not ?
>>
>>Where does one draw that line ?
>>
>>Perhaps if Mr. Roberts had the same capacity to forgive as his victims, maybe the whole episode never would have happened.
>>
>
>If he were alive right now would you still think this way? Just asking.
>
Sure I would, mind you my capacity for forgiveness is not the same as the Amish, it doesn't diminish my respect for their capacity in any way.

I wish I could forgive the way they do, and if we could all forgive like that, the world might be a much better place.



 
Mesh Posted: Wed Oct 4 20:04:18 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>It hasn't really changed all that much.
>IF you go back and read the news from 5, 10, 15, or 20yrs ago, you will see much of the same lunacy that we see today.
>The really big difference is our ability to see the news on the internet at work, at home, on our cell phones, everywhere we go we have access to current events, much of the time as they are happening.
>
>Seems to me we could learn much from the Amish.


I agree wholeheartedly. The world is no more fucked up now than it's ever been. It's just that now we are able to hear about anything in the world, and get constant updates on it. Serial killers, mass-murders, wars, rapists, they've been happening for ages. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that as fucked up as things are today, and lots, and I means lots, of unnecessary evil happens everyday, it is actually far less prevalent now then at any other time in history. And I'm obsessed with learning about the evils that men have done throughout the ages, I probably have read on just about every fucked up person, place, war, etc since recorded history. I've spent a lot of my free time learning about that shit since I was a preteen.



Also. Fuck that guy. The Amish don't deserve that. I admire them. I met a few families of them that were hiking together down the grandcanyon. In their hot, cotton and wool clothes. Without all the fancy hiking and camping gear everyone else uses. They just did it, with almost nothing in terms of supplies. And it didn't even look like they were struggling. Good people. And they were very kind to me, even though I go against just about anything they stand for. And they knew it, because I wasn't shy about talking about myself.


New Law. Anyone who hurts an Amish person gets tortured for twenty years straight.


 
Cherry_Moon Posted: Wed Oct 4 23:00:56 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Kira said:
>the Amish are a backwards-thinking cult

So are the rest of the fucking Christians. At least the Amish follow the christian values. They're not like the rest of the war-mongering apes out there killing in the name of Bush erm I mean "God".

>Bob Barker is an animal rights nut.

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=meet_your_meat

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=testing123

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=yadkin_county

the last is a local one for all the NC peoples on here.

if you still think he's a nut then you are disturbed. There's really reasons to be "nuts" about animal rights.

>I don't think I can learn much from either.

do you learn much from anyone?

Mr. Misses said:
>New Law. Anyone who hurts an Amish person gets tortured for twenty years straight.

ai ai.
The amish are truly the last good hearted and pure group of people.

It really does make you wonder if God really has abandoned us. Look at what we do to each other. I don't think he's there anymore. I don't know how he can take all the heartbreak.

It just shows you how fucked up the school systems are. Even the amish are no longer safe from the shit heap of this growing sewer of a country.

homeschoolers unite!



 
Posted: Thu Oct 5 00:45:36 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I might as well just come out with it - after reading, in Bob Dylan's "Chronicles vol. 1", that he made a constant habit of reading news from twenty-or-more years ago in an effort to distance himself from the lunacy of current media, I've been doing more or less the same.

I went out and bought The New Yorker's Complete Archives, on 8 DVDs. I spend a lot of time reading very old articles, from the fifties and early sixties, a few from the thirties, and a lot of the late-seventies writing is actually very good as well.

It's been working well for me as far as giving me a little bit of solace on a daily basis.

It has not been doing so well with my cocktail-party social scenes.


 
addi Posted: Thu Oct 5 07:18:15 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Cherry_Moon said:

>It really does make you wonder if God really has abandoned us.


"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Oct 5 07:59:17 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Cherry_Moon said:
>Kira said:
>>the Amish are a backwards-thinking cult
>
>So are the rest of the fucking Christians.
>
No true Wiccan would ever use a phrase such as "the rest of the fucking Christians"

>>Bob Barker is an animal rights nut.
>
>http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=meet_your_meat
>
>http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=testing123
>
>http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=yadkin_county
>
>the last is a local one for all the NC peoples on here.
>
>if you still think he's a nut then you are disturbed. There's really reasons to be "nuts" about animal rights.
>
Bob Barker is a nut and PETA kills more animals than they save.

>>I don't think I can learn much from either.
>
>do you learn much from anyone?
>
That was just mean, do you need a Midol ?

>Mr. Misses said:
>>New Law. Anyone who hurts an Amish person gets tortured for twenty years straight.
>
>ai ai.
>The amish are truly the last good hearted and pure group of people.
>
Yeah, those Mennonites and Hutterites can all just burn in hell. Let's not forget about the Sikhs and Buddhists and Hindus, they're no good either.

>It really does make you wonder if God really has abandoned us. Look at what we do to each other. I don't think he's there anymore. I don't know how he can take all the heartbreak.
>
You don't sound very Wiccan in the above statement, have you changed again ?

>It just shows you how fucked up the school systems are. Even the amish are no longer safe from the shit heap of this growing sewer of a country.
>
Which school system are you speaking of, the public schools or the Amish schools ?




 
Cherry_Moon Posted: Thu Oct 5 12:51:05 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>No true Wiccan would ever use a phrase such as "the rest of the fucking Christians"

mm... perhaps not...

>Bob Barker is a nut and PETA kills more animals than they save.

show me this data. I wish to learn more.

>That was just mean, do you need a Midol ?

perhaps. i'm crabby. maybe all this comes from being pms-y

>Yeah, those Mennonites and Hutterites can all just burn in hell. Let's not forget about the Sikhs and Buddhists and Hindus, they're no good either.

yup.... *rolls eyes* i didn't mean it in that way.

>You don't sound very Wiccan in the above statement, have you changed again ?

I am not a simple beast. I allign myself with being Wiccan. But there's a part of me that has doubts. Just like any other human being. I'm not as strong as some.

>Which school system are you speaking of, the public schools or the Amish schools ?

The public.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Oct 5 13:33:10 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Cherry_Moon said:
>>Bob Barker is a nut and PETA kills more animals than they save.
>
>show me this data. I wish to learn more.
>
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/index.cfm
>
>>Yeah, those Mennonites and Hutterites can all just burn in hell. Let's not forget about the Sikhs and Buddhists and Hindus, they're no good either.
>
>yup.... *rolls eyes* i didn't mean it in that way.
>
>>You don't sound very Wiccan in the above statement, have you changed again ?
>
>I am not a simple beast. I allign myself with being Wiccan. But there's a part of me that has doubts. Just like any other human being. I'm not as strong as some.
>
But you seem to be strong enough to be quite judgemental of others.

>>Which school system are you speaking of, the public schools or the Amish schools ?
>
>The public.
>
But the Amish do not go to public schools.


 
Mesh Posted: Fri Oct 6 19:12:03 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>
>"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"


No one is talking to you, Jesus. You got what you deserved you hippy. Go turn something into wine, mother fuck. Better, turn it into beer.


 
Howitzer Posted: Sat Oct 7 22:27:24 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Mr. Misses said:
>addi said:
>>
>>"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"
>
>
>No one is talking to you, Jesus. You got what you deserved you hippy. Go turn something into wine, mother fuck. Better, turn it into beer.

Yea, wine is overrated, I love beer...

anyhow, my family (and therefore, me) is from amish country, PA. The neihborhood my parents are from is only 30 minutes drive from where the shootings happened. I did not have any family involved in the shooting, but i do have a few in the shcool where it happened. I don't understand what is wrong with this country, where people can think that they can kill those who have not matured yet (including the govn't), and not think that threre is not any punishment. As Jesus said (although I don't subscribe to his church), "Children are the light of the world", and I do believe that those who cut short the possibilities of those who could bring this world to a better place should die in the worst way possible.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Oct 8 09:40:38 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Howitzer said:
As Jesus said (although I don't subscribe to his church), "Children are the light of the world", and I do believe that those who cut short the possibilities of those who could bring this world to a better place should die in the worst way possible.
>
So you are against abortion ?


 
addi Posted: Sun Oct 8 10:07:53 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>So you are against abortion ?

from the amish to abortion?

that's one giant leap for forumkind : )

Actually, I see where you're going, but you make a very questionable assumtion here that killing a 9 year old child is tantamount to "killing" an unborn fetus.
It's not my point to argue the ethics of abortion here, but to mention what I see as some glaring major differences between the two situations.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Sun Oct 8 10:53:40 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I do believe that those who cut short the possibilities of those who could bring this world to a better place should die in the worst way possible.
>
I was responding to the above sentence.

Also, I find it interesting that you would put the wrap the word KILLING in quotes as if it weren't really happening in the case of a fetus.


 
sweet p Posted: Sun Oct 8 12:55:54 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Howitzer said:
>...

i hope your family and friends are alright.
[and that you've been keeping up with your adventures. i like your photo.]


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Oct 8 20:37:25 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Hey, abortion is still terminating a organism. What it really comes down to, is when do you consider it a human being? While it's still in the womb? Immediately after conception? Or not until it passes through the birth canal and takes its first breath of air?


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Oct 8 20:37:49 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  an* organism


 
addi Posted: Sun Oct 8 20:53:33 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Also, I find it interesting that you would put the wrap the word KILLING in quotes as if it weren't really happening in the case of a fetus.

I put it quotes because the word itself carries a lot of baggage with it...like the pro-lifers that wave signs calling it "MURDER".
A fetus is terminated in an early abortion, so technically it is killing.

Strickly my viewpoint, but I personally make a big distinction between walking into a schoolhouse and shooting a child with a gun, and a doctor performing an abortion with the woman's consent.
Maybe that's just me though.


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Oct 8 23:44:34 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  But what about the fetus? Because the woman who was carrying it decided to terminate it before it had a chance to mature into a full human being, and be given birth, no one should consider its right to live? If you haven't been birthed, than you have no right to live? Just because your termination was decided before the 9th week?


 
Mesh Posted: Sun Oct 8 23:46:20 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm pretty liberal, mind you. But there are some things I stick with the conservatives on. Those are immigration, gun possesion, and abortion.



Don't get me wrong, Bush is still a fucking retard.


But so is Hillary Clinton.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Oct 9 06:24:39 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:

>
>Strickly my viewpoint, but I personally make a big distinction between walking into a schoolhouse and shooting a child with a gun, and a doctor performing an abortion with the woman's consent.
>Maybe that's just me though.
>
Yes, they are two different things, but they also have at least one similarity.
To paraphrase Howitzer, are they not both "cutting short the possibilities of those who could bring this world to a better place" ?


 
addi Posted: Mon Oct 9 07:49:59 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>Yes, they are two different things, but they also have at least one similarity.
>To paraphrase Howitzer, are they not both "cutting short the possibilities of those who could bring this world to a better place" ?

Here we go....

Yes, shooting a child and having an abortion have one similarity: a living thing is killed. Bombing Iraq and killing innocent children is also "cutting short the possibilities of those who could bring this world to a better place". I don't see the Pro-Life groups out on the street corners demonstrating against that loss of human life.

As mesh pointed out earlier it's a very grey area exactly when a fertalized egg becomes a "human". Pro-lifers are up in arms about a woman taking the morning after pill because the egg could have been fertalized, and it could become a human life after several months. So that's "murder" to them. I just don't feel the whole issue is as black and white as some make it out to be.

Furthermore there is a tendency for the anti-abortion activists to think of the pro-choice advicates as souless heartless killers. As if a woman choosing to have an abortion goes through the proceedure like it affected her emotionally the same way as getting a bikini wax...in other words, it's no big deal to them. Really ignorant viewpoint.

Most pro-choicers don't believe it's okay to go around having unprotected sex, because you can always get an abortion if you get pregnant. They just want the option available (in a legal clean safe environment) for a woman IF that happens. They understand that it can be a very difficult emotionally profound decision for a woman to make...with possible lasting affects on her psyche for the rest of her life.
They also hate the idea of a vocal group of right wing male religious nut cases telling them what a woman should do with her own body.

To make an analogy, it's similar to conservatives calling any person against the invansion of Iraq as unpatriotic, unsupportive of our troops, and weak on terrorism.
A frequent pro-life tactic is to portray any pro-choicer as a person with no conscious, a souless baby murderer, with no regard whatsoever for the value of a human life.

If you know a woman that has had this proceedure done you also know that nothing could be further from the truth.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Oct 9 08:01:33 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Kind of wordy don't you think ?
:-)


 
addi Posted: Mon Oct 9 08:08:55 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Kind of wordy don't you think ?
>:-)

Yes.
A frequent problem I have.

"Talk in everlasting words
And dedicate them all to me
And I will give you all my life
I'm here if you should call to me
You think that I don't even mean
A single word I say
It's only words, and words are all
I have to take your heart away"

(Words, Bee Gees)


 
ifihadahif Posted: Mon Oct 9 10:27:15 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>Kind of wordy don't you think ?
>>:-)
>
>Yes.
>A frequent problem I have.
>
>"Talk in everlasting words
>And dedicate them all to me
>And I will give you all my life
>I'm here if you should call to me
>You think that I don't even mean
>A single word I say
>It's only words, and words are all
>I have to take your heart away"
>
>(Words, Bee Gees)
>
Great, great song, one of their best for sure.


 
Mesh Posted: Mon Oct 9 17:57:38 2006 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Mr. Misses said:
> week?


Also, month. Also, I don't remember those posts. I was loopy from pain killers for my back.


 



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