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maybe my biggest decision yet.
Posted: Tue Feb 27 01:56:16 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The brief:

1. I graduate in two months with an honours degree in philosophy.

2. I have been gearing myself toward law school for quite some time now, having written a pretty darned good LSAT. The letter is in the mail, and will let me know whether I get in or not, within a week or two.

3. I have been offered a job in San Francisco doing web/User Interface design. I would have to relocate.

4. My current student debt, though small comparatively (~12k), is enough that I feel choked and constrained by it.

______________________

Question: what should I do? law school will be three more years of school here in Windsor, with another year of articling, only increasing my debt and making me hit the workforce at an older age, in a highly saturated market. Job security and salary is better. Web design is something I'm very good at, though - I have had trouble admitting this, but I've gotten it from enough credible sources now that I feel comfortable with this admission. It's enjoyable, I hit the workforce now, etc.

Anyway, the company in S.F. is basically asking me to name my own salary. I'm 22, turning 23 by the time I graduate: what should not-going-to-law-school be worth to me? What would they have to pay me to convince me off this path?

I'm really quite confused on the matter, looking for any sort of opinion, please.



 
J. Posted: Tue Feb 27 02:45:28 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
Law school.


 
Ahriman Posted: Tue Feb 27 04:07:14 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  No idea man. I'm going to be finishing my culinary degree in a little over a year. After that I'm going into the sciences so I can get into research and developement in the food industry.


4:06am. I decided not to go to sleep tonight. Going to Wegmans to pick up avocados now for this thing I have to do in the morning.


 
Ahriman Posted: Tue Feb 27 04:25:35 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Is law your only option?

I have a million lawyers in my family. We own a law firm. Kept me out of the field.


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 27 06:29:52 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  This is a really tough one, Crim. Usually when I answer questions like this I have a fairly clear opinion in my head on what to say. In this case I can see advantages (and disadvantages) to both choices. Ultimately I think you need to search deep down inside and go with the one you think will make you the happiest down the line...not including factors like money owed and amount of time.

One of the things I've learned in my years here is that if doing job "X" isn't real prestigious or super high paying, but it makes Crim happy then it's better than 30 years of regrets at job "Y", that impresses friends at cocktail parties and buys the Mercedes, but makes you miserable every morning when the alarm goes off.

Life is quick and short, friend. Find a career that is fulfilling, challenging, and personally rewarding for you if possible...that may be web design or in a courtroom. Don't let other people tell you what would make you happy.

Good luck


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 27 06:44:25 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ps

if you do choose San Fran, keep in mind that what they offer you might sound good compared to where you're living now. But you don't want to discover once you're out there that 80% of your income is going towards a hole in the wall dump in live in. The cost of living is high there..just ask libra.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 27 09:06:56 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Do both.
Get your law degree and pay for it doing web design.


 
FN Posted: Tue Feb 27 09:21:15 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Prestige and money is what makes a job good or not.

If you think lawyers are a saturated part of the job market, I wonder how you think web designers aren't.

Don't get me wrong, I like your sites and clearly you have an aptitude for it, but face it, there are people who have actually studied to be a web designer and know all the programs and such on a professional level as well as being trained to be creative when using them.

So chances are they'll bump you out or when somebody hires you they can get away with paying you less because you aren't a "licensed" one.



I say do lawschool and keep websites as a hobby.


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 27 09:47:45 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Prestige and money is what makes a job good or not.

spoken by someone not out in the job world yet.




 
J. Posted: Tue Feb 27 10:00:00 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
Make a list of your priorities and do an elimination process.

What are the three most important things in your life right now? Five years from now? Ten years from now?

What is your five-year plan, ten-year plan?

I know a girl who bumped grade twice, went to college at the age of 15, got her MD at 22. All the years of hard work and no play, all the accomplishments, but now ... she asks herself: what’s next?

She is confused and lost. No sense of direction. Everything seems meaningless somehow.

My Dad used to say you have thirty, forty years ahead of you to work (and pay taxes! *LOL*). No need to hurry. You are only young once. Life is not about going from point A to point B as fast as you can, it's about enjoying the flowers along the path as well as learning about the beauty life offers along the journey.

Get your education first while you still have the mind set and the momentum. The financial rewards will come to those who work hard, have a strong desire to succeed, and want to make positive contributions to society.

Live life to the fullest, my friend.





 
Ahriman Posted: Tue Feb 27 10:04:45 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I make excellent money right now for a 19 year old. I cover my monthly rent in two days, pay insurance the next, and have the rest of the month to make money for school payments and such. However, the job I have right now makes me want to shoot my brains out. I'm currently looking for a better job and I don't care about the money. Give me a good sunset and faint breeze over a PS3 and new wardrobe any day.


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 27 10:11:24 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  suenos said:

>I know a girl who bumped grade twice, went to college at the age of 15, got her MD at 22.

i believe i know this girl too. she has much to offer the world.

: )


 
FN Posted: Tue Feb 27 10:12:51 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>spoken by someone not out in the job world yet.

Perhaps, but also spoken by somebody who sees a lot of people about pretending to be satisfied but who aren't once you get down to it.

Free time and such is all very nice, but if you have no real money to spend during it you're out of luck.

Fact of the matter is if your job sucks chances are deep down you'll feel like a loser yourself.


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 27 10:14:52 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ahriman said:
>I'm currently looking for a better job and I don't care about the money. Give me a good sunset and faint breeze over a PS3 and new wardrobe any day.

my god, man! your priorities are way out of whack!

: )


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 27 10:17:13 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Listen to Suenos, she said better than I ever could.

If you have an opportunity to get that law degree, go get it dammit !

Whatever you end up doing in life, having a law degree is not something you will regret having.


 
FN Posted: Tue Feb 27 10:25:26 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  suenos said:
>
>Make a list of your priorities and do an elimination process.
>but now ... she asks herself: what’s next?

Just like everybody else.

Being a loser or a success has little to do with that, it's inherent to being a conscious being.

>She is confused and lost. No sense of direction. Everything seems meaningless somehow.

ditto

>Get your education first while you still have the mind set and the momentum. The financial rewards will come to those who work hard, have a strong desire to succeed

Lets hope so

>and want to make positive contributions to society.

I don't see how that has anything to do with it

>Live life to the fullest, my friend.

I know the title of a new self improvement book I'm going to write to sell to desperate simpletons who'll grasp at anything to give them peace of mind about their low end lives.


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 27 10:26:34 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Fact of the matter is if your job sucks chances are deep down you'll feel like a loser yourself.

you just backed up my point.

prestige and money in one's job do not automatically equate to happiness.

don't get me wrong, there's nothing inherantly virtueous in working at an unglamorous low paying job. just one example to make a point: In america a teaching position isn't held in high respect (compared to many other cultures). Most teachers aren't going to get rich either..in fact the majority of those I know struggle to make ends meet each month. However I know several teachers, despite their "status" and income circumstances, that love their job and wouldn't trade it for doing anything else.
Prestige and money are componants of job happiness, but they are not the determining factor in whether or not you are happy in your career.


 
beetlebum Posted: Tue Feb 27 10:30:40 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>Listen to Suenos, she said better than I ever could.
>
>If you have an opportunity to get that law degree, go get it dammit !
>
>Whatever you end up doing in life, having a law degree is not something you will regret having.

god, too bad i didn't get one.


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 27 10:41:18 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>I know the title of a new self improvement book I'm going to write to sell to desperate simpletons who'll grasp at anything to give them peace of mind about their low end lives.

Dogbert couldn't have said it any better
: )


*a character in a comic strip here called "Dilbert".


 
Posted: Tue Feb 27 11:07:08 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  thanks for the input so far guys.

The thing is: it's not like this job (design work in SF) is going to put me in the poorhouse. It *is* something that I'd really love doing, but at the same time, I'd probably be making over the household median in SF, one month out of a philosophy degree, moving from a town whose household median is just over half of SF's.

So, being a lawyer could make me very financially well off, and taking this job could make me very financially well off.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 27 11:09:48 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>I know the title of a new self improvement book I'm going to write to sell to desperate simpletons who'll grasp at anything to give them peace of mind about their low end lives.
>
What exactly is your definition of a low end life ?


 
Kira Posted: Tue Feb 27 11:47:52 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I think if you're feeling indecisive about this, you shouldn't go to law school.

I understand a law degree is basically a ticket to financial security, assuming you'll use it, and that isn't something that should be given up lightly. But it's three more years of school and several more years of debt. Speaking as someone who has never been to school, I feel that any kind of honest work can never compare to study. Study is not work, and should only be committed to if it is standing in between you and a dream.

Debt is a part of life. It bothers some people more than others. If law is what you really want I wouldn't worry about the money - but if the job in SF allows you to start paying that off and start living with more freedom, that's the option I would choose.


 
FN Posted: Tue Feb 27 11:48:02 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Off the top of my head:

flipping burgers in mc donalds at the age of 50 with a bloated wife at home and 2 meth kids in jail.


 
FN Posted: Tue Feb 27 11:49:23 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Kira said:
>Speaking as someone who has never been to school

Ok

>I feel that any kind of honest work can never compare to study. Study is not work

Right.


 
J. Posted: Tue Feb 27 13:15:46 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>
>>and want to make positive contributions to society.
>
>I don't see how that has anything to do with it
>

It's obvious to me that you have never hired any lawyer.

You “don't see how that has anything to do with it” because you don't understand what it's like to have a bad laywer representing you.

Do you know how often these guys screw their client to the wall after they've done taken him/her to the cleaner? *LOL*

We need more (smart, good looking, sexy) lawyers (such as Crim) who have high integrity and moral standard to balance out the (ugly) crooks!

That, my friend, is making a HUGE positive contribution to society.


*Wink*




 
Posted: Tue Feb 27 13:20:30 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  suenos said:
>We need more (smart, good looking, sexy) lawyers (such as Crim) who have high integrity and moral standard to balance out the (ugly) crooks!

oooh, I don't know about that. I am a man of fairly loose morals.


 
J. Posted: Tue Feb 27 13:25:52 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CriminalSaint said:

>The thing is: it's not like this job (design work in SF) is going to put me in the poorhouse. It *is* something that I'd really love doing, but at the same time, I'd probably be making over the household median in SF, one month out of a philosophy degree, moving from a town whose household median is just over half of SF's.
>
>So, being a lawyer could make me very financially well off, and taking this job could make me very financially well off.

________



Three things in life that, once gone, never come back -

1. Time
2. Words
3. Opportunity


Three things in life that can destroy a person -

1. Anger
2. Pride
3. Unforgiveness

Three things in life that you should never lose -

1. Hope
2. Peace
3. Honesty

Three things in life that are most valuable -

1. Love
2. Family & Friends
3. Kindness


Three things in life that are never certain -

1. Fortune
2. Success
3. Dreams


Three things that make a person -

1 Commitment
2. Sincerity
3. Hard work



Good luck, Criminal Saint.





 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 27 13:32:20 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CriminalSaint said:
>suenos said:
>>We need more (smart, good looking, sexy) lawyers (such as Crim) who have high integrity and moral standard to balance out the (ugly) crooks!
>
>oooh, I don't know about that. I am a man of fairly loose morals.
>
Of course you are, you're going to be an attorney !

But you can be a man of loose morals and still care about your clients, still have a certain code of ethics.


 
J. Posted: Tue Feb 27 13:35:24 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CriminalSaint said:
>suenos said:
>>We need more (smart, good looking, sexy) lawyers (such as Crim) who have high integrity and moral standard to balance out the (ugly) crooks!
>
>oooh, I don't know about that. I am a man of fairly loose morals.


*taking notes: OK, that Criminal Saint guy is now officially on my "Bad Future Lawyers: Must Shoot For The Good Of Mankind" list.*




 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 27 13:49:21 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  suenos said:
>>oooh, I don't know about that. I am a man of fairly loose morals.
>
>
>*taking notes: OK, that Criminal Saint guy is now officially on my "Bad Future Lawyers: Must Shoot For The Good Of Mankind" list.*
>
But loose morals is kind of a relative term don't you think ?


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 27 14:58:49 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CriminalSaint said:

>oooh, I don't know about that. I am a man of fairly loose morals.

my morals got loose once. I started entertaining ideas of becoming a conservative radio talk show host...
or a priest.
Luckily I found them again. Now I'm aspiring to work as a sales clerk in an adult video store....
or a shepherd.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Feb 27 15:08:07 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>CriminalSaint said:
>
>>oooh, I don't know about that. I am a man of fairly loose morals.
>
>my morals got loose once. I started entertaining ideas of becoming a conservative radio talk show host...
>or a priest.
>Luckily I found them again. Now I'm aspiring to work as a sales clerk in an adult video store....
>or a shepherd.
>
My morals got loose once too. But I found them and put them in a box with my scruples, and put it away.
Now I don't have to take them with me everywhere I go.


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 27 15:48:05 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>My morals got loose once too. But I found them and put them in a box with my scruples, and put it away.
>Now I don't have to take them with me everywhere I go.

no johnson should have to leave the house without it's scruples tagging along. shame on you.


*and do something about that avatar!

: )


 
addi Posted: Tue Feb 27 16:15:50 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  oh my god...switch back...switch back!!


 
J. Posted: Tue Feb 27 18:46:30 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ahriman said:
>No idea man. I'm going to be finishing my culinary degree in a little over a year. After that I'm going into the sciences so I can get into research and developement in the food industry.
>
>
>4:06am. I decided not to go to sleep tonight. Going to Wegmans to pick up avocados now for this thing I have to do in the morning.

Ahriman,

Do you have a good recipe for keylime pie?

We have a million keylimes here, and I am dying for some good homemade keylime pie. I know I can get about 100 recipes from the internet in 30 seconds, but I don't trust any of them.

Thanks!


(* Yeek!!! I talked my head off today! *)




 
Posted: Tue Feb 27 19:45:32 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  pssst: just negotiated the salary, it is significantly (significantly significantly) higher than I'd be making in my first half dozen years as a lawyer, were I to stay here.

This makes me all sorts of happy.


 
jennemmer Posted: Wed Feb 28 00:32:50 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Potentially silly things I do when sitting down to make a decision:

Make two columns for each option, one for and one against. That way it's easier to see the breakdown and I can always think of lots of reasons for the thing I actually want to do.

Make the decision and then sit down to write and acceptance letter/ application type letter (even if one isn't required). Notice how you're feeling. Excited? Aprehensive? Relieved?

Best of luck with whichever you end up choosing.


 
Ahriman Posted: Wed Feb 28 01:33:53 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm going into my Pastry Arts classes soon. I'll get back to you on that.


 
beetlebum Posted: Wed Feb 28 07:34:39 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CriminalSaint said:
>pssst: just negotiated the salary, it is significantly (significantly significantly) higher than I'd be making in my first half dozen years as a lawyer, were I to stay here.
>
>This makes me all sorts of happy.

congrats, crim! that's wonderful. :D


 
addi Posted: Wed Feb 28 07:44:45 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CriminalSaint said:

>This makes me all sorts of happy.

So is your decision made then?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Feb 28 07:51:25 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ahriman said:
>I'm going into my Pastry Arts classes soon. I'll get back to you on that.
>
Somehow I had to smile at the above post and the avatar that accompanied it.

It sort of reminded me of Sly Stallone in Demolition Man when he knitted sweaters in between killing people.



 
J. Posted: Wed Feb 28 10:32:26 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CriminalSaint said:
>pssst: just negotiated the salary, it is significantly (significantly significantly) higher than I'd be making in my first half dozen years as a lawyer, were I to stay here.
>
>This makes me all sorts of happy.

Congrats!




 
J. Posted: Wed Feb 28 10:43:31 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>suenos said:
>>>oooh, I don't know about that. I am a man of fairly loose morals.
>>
>>
>>*taking notes: OK, that Criminal Saint guy is now officially on my "Bad Future Lawyers: Must Shoot For The Good Of Mankind" list.*
>>
>But loose morals is kind of a relative term don't you think ?

You make me laugh.

I remember when hearing Mr. Bill Clinton declared "I didn't have sex ...." My Mother raised her eyebrowns and asked my Dad, "what did he mean by that?" He laughed and said, "well, sex is kind of a 'relative term', don't you think?"


Ahriman said:

>I'm going into my Pastry Arts classes soon. I'll get back to you on that.

Thanks!




 
addi Posted: Wed Feb 28 11:00:39 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  suenos said:

>I remember when hearing Mr. Bill Clinton declared "I didn't have sex ...."

using clinton's definition of having sex means I'm still a virgin.

maybe that's why I'm so stressed out lately.


 



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