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Sad horrible day for VT students
addi Posted: Mon Apr 16 19:13:37 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  tempted to go into a long rant about the easy access of guns here, but I know it won't make any difference. And I know these sick people would just find other way to kill.
I feel for the families that get a phone call telling them they've lost a child.

tonight when you crawl in bed, friends, take a second to be thankful you (and your loved ones) made it through one more day on this earth, because you never know when it will be stopped short by some totally senseless act.


 
CorDrine Posted: Mon Apr 16 23:09:32 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Dear Addi,

Is this the 21 student killed in shotout I read about this morning in the US? We haven't got the full story yet, on the reason for the killing.... It is indeed sad to see it though.


 
Dancer Posted: Tue Apr 17 00:52:30 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  this is so totally rubbish...

i pity the parents of the victims to have to live another day fearing for the safety of their other kids in school for a long time to come..

it is sad because this won't be the last time such things happen.. and it seems so easy to take 30+ lives .. this is crazy.


 
addi Posted: Tue Apr 17 07:49:32 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  CorDrine said:
>Dear Addi,
>
>Is this the 21 student killed in shotout I read about this morning in the US?

32 students killed..by one of their fellow students. Many others wounded from gunshots...don't know the exact numbers at this time.

and Dancer is right..it's way too easy to take multiple lives with the types of weapons available today. And I'm afraid she's also right that it won't be the last time.

This makes me think about how I condition myself to accept the deaths of people. What I mean is that soldiers and civilians are being killed every day in Iraq, but it doesn't hit me the same way. I hear the figures on the news about another 60 deaths over there and it's been going on for so long that I just sigh and go on with whatever I'm doing. But when death is taken out of the war context, and into a peaceful college campus it hits me totally different....much harder to be honest. I can't justify these different reactions to the loss of innocent lives rationally in my head.


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Tue Apr 17 12:36:26 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I read this and I was totally chocked, so I put on the tv and it was all over news ...

This is just terrible, no other words to describe it...


 
DanSRose Posted: Tue Apr 17 13:32:14 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The story seems to be that the shooter was a senior English major, an exchange student from South Korea (not that this has anything to do with anything, because it doesn't). He recently broke up with his girlfriend and went too confront her in her dormroom. Instead he found her in bed with another man. An argument broke out, leading a domestic dispute call to 911, which was dismissed as he left the scene. He proceeded to get weapons from his dorm and shot killed the other man, then his ex-girlfriend.
Then I lost the ability to explain and tell what happened next, as he ... just lost it.


 
Ahriman Posted: Tue Apr 17 14:04:40 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Do what you can.


 
casper Posted: Tue Apr 17 15:09:36 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>CorDrine said:
>>Dear Addi,
>>
>>Is this the 21 student killed in shotout I read about this morning in the US?
>
>32 students killed..by one of their fellow students. Many others wounded from gunshots...don't know the exact numbers at this time.
>
>and Dancer is right..it's way too easy to take multiple lives with the types of weapons available today. And I'm afraid she's also right that it won't be the last time.
>
>This makes me think about how I condition myself to accept the deaths of people. What I mean is that soldiers and civilians are being killed every day in Iraq, but it doesn't hit me the same way. I hear the figures on the news about another 60 deaths over there and it's been going on for so long that I just sigh and go on with whatever I'm doing. But when death is taken out of the war context, and into a peaceful college campus it hits me totally different....much harder to be honest. I can't justify these different reactions to the loss of innocent lives rationally in my head.

you justify it by knowing that people going to iraq know what they are getting into. that they know there's a chance that they will not be coming home and they accept it. that's what we are paid to do. these poor kids are totally different. when a soldier dies he is giving his life for some other purpose...whether it be a cause or an ideal or simply so his comrads in arms will live. there was no purpose to these killings, no justification. just an end to numerous young lives to no end


 
addi Posted: Tue Apr 17 15:56:33 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  casper said:

>you justify it by knowing that people going to iraq know what they are getting into. that they know there's a chance that they will not be coming home and they accept it. that's what we are paid to do.

I understand what you're saying, casper. I agree to an extent(I'm hoping to not turn this into an Iraq War thread).
On one hand it can be said that it's very different. On the other hand the death of a 20 year old, whether it's here or over there is still a death. I guess it boils down to one's perspective on this current war. You (and many others) see it as giving your life for a good purpose. I am with you in that a soldier choosing to put him/herself in harms way is above reproach, and very honorable. But as a civilian looking on I make a clear distinction on what the particular cause is...even though a soldier doesn't have that luxury. The last time i felt it was justified with "purpose" was the War in Afghanistan. I don't share your sentiments for a justified presence in Iraq...which you already know.
So from my perspective both examples of people being killed are senseless and tragic.

*nice to hear from you again.


 
innocenceNonus Posted: Tue Apr 17 16:21:46 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  as a college student living on campus [and an english major on top of that], it's weird and sad to think that this could have easily been one of my classmates... or someone that i knew.

and the repercussions of one person's actions on the world, much less a college community... it's harrowing.

recently, i've been given a lot of reasons to reflect on the shortness of life... i wonder how many of those kids that died had been happy with the lives they had led... how many of them had "things to do" lists that never got finished. and the fact that both the columbine and this VT shooting are both within the same age range is also alarming...

a lot of questions. not a lot of answers.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Apr 17 17:42:01 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Keeping perspective:

LOU DOBBS: Good morning, Russ, thank you. And good morning to all of you. This morning, we're grieving for the victims of what has turned out to be the deadliest shooting in this country's history and the senseless deaths, the shock of those death, of more than 30 people and the wounding of dozens more on Virginia Tech's campus won't diminish for us soon. My heart goes out to the families and the victims and all those touched by this tragedy. As we try to make sense of this madness, you and I know that in the days and weeks ahead, these horrible murders will dominate our news coverage and our national conversation. And we in the media will most likely lose some perspective and some sense of proportion. We'll be reporting on the worst shooting rampage ever in this country. But we will be also unlikely to report that mass shootings in this nation's elementary schools, middle schools, high schools and colleges, as horrific as they are, number just over 200 over the past 80 years. Unfortunately, we'll also not be likely to report that on our college campuses, 1,100 students each and every year will commit suicide. The rate of drug overdoses among teens and young adults is now more than doubled over a recent five-year period. And each year, on average, there are 1,400 binge drinking related deaths among our college students nationwide. The Virginia Tech murders are horrible and senseless. And because they are dramatic, they demand our attention this morning. But for all our sakes, I hope we also ask ourselves why our society is permitting the routine slaughter of a far greater number of our young people on college campuses. We should also ask ourselves why we're doing nothing about these senseless deaths and permitting death to be a rite of passage on our college campuses.




 
FN Posted: Tue Apr 17 17:42:14 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  The answer's pretty simple.

In this day and age you have a lot of crippled personalities running about with a lot of serious issues.

Give them a spark and they explode.




From what I've heard about this, the guy wanted to go and see his girlfriend on the campus, found her (in bed?) with another guy, at which point somebody called the police, but since he went away they canceled that.

Then he came back with a gun, shot his gf and the other guy, and then flipped out some more, probably in a combination of fury, panic, remorse, despair, and whatever the hell would go through somebody's mind after shooting his cheating gf.

And he happened to be in a public place with a lot of people around to take the emotional overload out on.




If that's the case I obviously don't justify it in any way (anybody who knows me a little here will no doubt be assured that that's not the way things work in my view), but I do understand how this thing could have happened to a certain extent.

It's domestic violence which sadly escalated to the point of absurdity.

Which obviously doesn't mean a thing to the victims themselves and the people who care about them.

It's sad to see things like these happening.

Being the devil's advocate here, I'm adding that this stuff happens all the time, all over the world. I wonder how many people are killed with machetes in africa on a daily basis for no reason at all, or how many kids have been killed in the middle east by suicide bombs and "collateral damage".

The only difference here is that it happened in a (western) school.

Obviously, that does not reduce the severity of this particular instance, nor am I the type to moralise about things like these, because I too care more about americans dying than about arabs or africans dying. But it's worth a second or 2 of thought on a day like this when global reality outside of our own borders hits home.




To add a last tidbit, the worst thing is probably that this is every opportunist's wet dream, no matter what type of lunacy they're advocating.

First feat of arms I've heard of? Some obscure character named "dr. phil" claiming that this wasn't caused by the guy being a psychopath/enraged cheated lover, but that it was caused by a random guy who played video games.


 
sweet p Posted: Tue Apr 17 19:56:31 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
 
everyone in this story suffered and that's the saddest part.
as stupid and as insensitive [maybe?] as it sounds, i dislike thinking about those students as victims of a crime/an unjust act/a masacre/whatever you want to call it, rather than thinking of them all as unfortunate victims of life, i guess.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Apr 17 21:22:13 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  sweet p said:
>
>everyone in this story suffered and that's the saddest part.
>as stupid and as insensitive [maybe?] as it sounds, i dislike thinking about those students as victims of a crime/an unjust act/a masacre/whatever you want to call it, rather than thinking of them all as unfortunate victims of life, i guess.
>
They were murdered.


 
sweet p Posted: Tue Apr 17 21:42:03 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>They were murdered.

why, yes, they were.



 
DanSRose Posted: Tue Apr 17 21:51:18 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  33 people are dead by the hand of one of them. So it goes.
That's what I said to myself when I heard the story.


When I first came to this site, it is during a thread on Columbine. The news are showing eight year old video from Colorado spliced in with this new footage. You can tell which is which, but that doesn't make it good. Jack Thompson is undertaking his stupid asshat crusade against the evils of video games.
Occam's Razor suggests something simple. Can we just look and see it was a terrible rage lit off from jealousy? Can we?


 
addi Posted: Tue Apr 17 22:08:19 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Being the devil's advocate here, I'm adding that this stuff happens all the time, all over the world.

I fully understand that. In fact it was one of the thoughts going through my head when I was debating whether to even start a thread on this. In certain parts of the globe I know that horrible deaths are far too common. It's the ugly part of our humanity..or inhumanity.
My intent wasn't to say this particular event was somehow more important or meaningful because they were American students killed. It was only a way to express my frustration and sadness, or my weak attempt to somehow verbalize feelings that can't really be verbalized I guess.

Sometimes the paradox of being human confronts you in a way you can't ignore. Humans can be so unbelievably beautiful and marvelous. And we can also be so cruel and evil and destructive.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Apr 18 06:42:26 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Sometimes the paradox of being human confronts you in a way you can't ignore. Humans can be so unbelievably beautiful and marvelous. And we can also be so cruel and evil and destructive.
>
You can't have one without the other, they define each other.
Fortunately, I believe we have much more of the former than the latter.

Still no matter how much you dissect it and try to divine the reasons for it, nothing takes away the feeling of the worst body blow you could ever take.


 
addi Posted: Wed Apr 18 07:10:00 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>You can't have one without the other, they define each other.
>Fortunately, I believe we have much more of the former than the latter.

I believe that too...most of the time. I think, because of the horrible nature of events like this, that they have a tendency to overshadow all the positive and good things humans do for each other.
I'm thinking if it was possible to construct a timeline of the history of mankind, and place on it all the acts of evil done to others, and also put on it all the acts of goodness and self-sacrifice and love..that the latter would far out number the former marks on this timeline.

It's just a damn shame that we even have to deal with this dark side of humanity at all. It used to be simple for me to explain it...back in the day when I believed that it was our fall from grace in the garden that caused human suffering. But since I now believe that's nothing more than an interesting old story (believing in some kind of loving personal God) there are no longer any simple answers to all of my "why?" questions.


 
innocenceNonus Posted: Wed Apr 18 08:28:51 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm typically of the opinion that humans are the cause of human suffering...

But I like the point made earlier: why are we allowing a generation of students to kill themselves? Is this a new trend, or just facts unearthed and shaped by media?



Also, a note: I think the way the media is treating this is disgusting. I know that i sound like the stereotypical "whatever-I-am" but watching the news always makes me feel sick in my stomach... Not because it's simply that bad things are happening, but because I feel like the sanctity of life is cheapened by the media.

How could I say that after the news channels have been feeding this story non-stop since occurrence? Because while in part they explain how a community has banded together and show us coverage of what's been going on the VT campus, and while they were bringing us "breaking" news the day of, I feel like this event has become so much of a political soapbox for so many "important" people to use to feed their own stances. Gun control, race... even VIDEO GAME reform.

And it makes me wonder: Do these people see a tragic event or more fodder for their personal political fire? Could we not wait a day before flooding channels with debates? I don't understand what five people noisily and messily debating gun control is as important as a suffering community.

Not that the political debates aren't important. But I don't see why they're being aired. Geraldo Rivera and Dan "ILoveMyGun" Whatshisface... I'm sorry, but right now, I really don't care what your opinion is on gun control. Right now, I want to know if the families and friends of those lost are okay. I want to know what the police have learned...

Which brings me on to another rant: Some of the interview questions I have heard are ridiculous... And their loaded aim makes me likewise sick to my stomach.

Personally, I'm sad that 33 people died, including the killer. Say what you will, but I feel bad for the kid. Lost, alone, confused... and now he'll go down in history as a raving criminal lunatic. Am I saying he was somehow "innocent" or that what he did was remotely "okay"? No. But I AM saying that he was human like the rest of us, and the fact that he got to that point is really tragic in itself.

And listening to the media trying to paint this kid to be some sort of monster when it's clear that while he was disturbed and confused, he was no monster... It's sad.

You might say he's a "monster" for killing 32 people, but this monster was made and influenced by his environment as anyone else. And this monster felt and this monster lost and this monster was pushed to a point of madness. And to see the media cheapen his death is disgusting as well.

I felt similarly about the Anna Nicole stories being aired. The question I keep hearing in my head is, "Was that REALLY necessary? Really..."

And I kinda follow Addi's point about hearing about death every day and not bothering to think twice, but when it's an event like this, half my world is on hold.

And I think that's part of the media's doing too. Because that's how it's presented to us, we don't bother thinking twice. Or we do.

I wonder if they had presented this story as how they present the story of so many other deaths, would I feel less or more upset with the media? Less because at least the families could mourn in peace, the memories of the dead could be as they should, and it'd be fewer idiots ranting about things only their followers care they say. More because it's a big event that demands attention and meditation.

I dunno. I just woke up and I still feel queasy. Perhaps I'm the only one dissatisfied with the news coverage. Feel free NOT to comment. But if you're itching to, go for it.

Unfortunately, I'm out of debate mode [especially for this topic] for awhile... I've become tired of arguing for my opinions when it seems that all I'm doing is falling upon deaf ears.

I'm tired of words that don't mean anything at the end of the day... Mine and others.

Peace to you.


 
addi Posted: Wed Apr 18 09:25:02 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  innocenceNonus said:

>I've become tired of arguing for my opinions when it seems that all I'm doing is falling upon deaf ears.

Don't do that, innocence. It's a good thing to get your thoughts out on stuff like this, and I bet you'd be surprised at how your opinions here are received and pondered upon. While I don't happen to agree with all you takes on things, I do like to read what you (and others) have to say...and it does make me stop and think about things from a different perspective.


*and I do happen to agree with you on the media coverage of events like this. That's why I can have the news on for about 10 minutes before I say enough and turn it off.



 
Dancer Posted: Thu Apr 19 06:30:25 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  innocenceNonus said:

>And it makes me wonder: Do these people see a tragic event or more fodder for their personal political fire?

>Not that the political debates aren't important. But I don't see why they're being aired. Geraldo Rivera and Dan "ILoveMyGun" Whatshisface... I'm sorry, but right now, I really don't care what your opinion is on gun control. Right now, I want to know if the families and friends of those lost are okay. I want to know what the police have learned...
>


>Personally, I'm sad that 33 people died, including the killer. Say what you will, but I feel bad for the kid. Lost, alone, confused... and now he'll go down in history as a raving criminal lunatic. Am I saying he was somehow "innocent" or that what he did was remotely "okay"? No. But I AM saying that he was human like the rest of us, and the fact that he got to that point is really tragic in itself.
>

i agree.. and addi is right.. you made me ponder on it awhile.


 
addi Posted: Thu Apr 19 07:11:14 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  today's war headlines:

"BAGHDAD - Grieving relatives retrieved bodies from hospital morgues Thursday, and passers-by gawked at the giant crater left by a market bomb in one of four attacks that killed 183 people on the bloodiest day since the U.S. troop increase began nine weeks ago."

multiple deaths are an everyday occurance there, but it won't get much media attention...we've grown numb to it..it's a war in Iraq and not students on some campus that were killed.

just pointing out an example of how we react very differently to the circumstances behind death. One tragedy will garner 72 hours of constant news coverage..the other will be acknowledged by a few with a sigh and an "ahhh, what a shame, but it's the nature of war now, isn't it."



 
kurohyou Posted: Thu Apr 19 18:38:19 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I've read most of the comments on this thread and thought I'd add my two cents, though to be honest I don't know what to really think about all of it. I tend to look at things a little differently now.

As many of you know I have written a time or two about Columbine. While I was not there that day, nor did I know anyone there, I do live in Colorado. I have driven by Columbine, and on that day 8 years ago My little brother would have been in that building if we had not moved. In our academy class we had a number of instructors who were there that day. One of our firearms instructors was a SWAT sniper, and his daughter was in the building that day. He spent the whole day laying on his gun watching that building not knowing if his daughter was alive. That's a bad day at the office...

I am sickened when things like this happen because they are, as the cliche goes, senseless. But what I find happening is that I'm getting tired of the media's protrayal of it. The dramatic art work, the tacky cliche's which they deliver with such nausiating shakespearian melodramatic flair. One in particular was the ABC World News tonight. The dumbass reporter used the phrase "death came visiting," or some derivitive 6 or 7 times in his opening and by the time any actual information came on I was screaming obscenities at the TV because that was some of the worst journalism I had seen.

I am numb right now to the whole situation. It sucks that it happened, but I'm tired of hearing about it. But what I am even more tired of is the placement of blame. About how they want to critize the campus police response and all this stuff. They want to blame the school. And I don't doubt that before too much longer there will be lawsuits levied against the school and related police agencies. Instead of taking a cold hard look at what happened and looking inside of ourselves, humans, at least in the west, seem to have a knee jerk reaction to assign blame, it drives me crazy.

I've relegated to ranting and have realized that i'm more heated than I thought I was over this. So I will close...

For what it's worth...


 
FN Posted: Fri Apr 20 11:53:32 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
>Instead of taking a cold hard look at what happened and looking inside of ourselves, humans, at least in the west, seem to have a knee jerk reaction to assign blame, it drives me crazy.


While other cultures never point at anybody else to blame you mean?


 
kurohyou Posted: Fri Apr 20 12:30:31 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>kurohyou said:
>>Instead of taking a cold hard look at what happened and looking inside of ourselves, humans, at least in the west, seem to have a knee jerk reaction to assign blame, it drives me crazy.
>
>
>While other cultures never point at anybody else to blame you mean?

I can only speak to how I perceive things from the culture to which I belong... I presume not to know how other cultures handle things like this.




 
FN Posted: Fri Apr 20 14:39:07 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  So the culture you belong to, (presuming it isn't the western one since you live in the US?), never points fingers at others?


 
kurohyou Posted: Fri Apr 20 17:03:00 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>So the culture you belong to, (presuming it isn't the western one since you live in the US?), never points fingers at others?

I'm an american and therefore that is the only culture which I can comment remotely intelligently on in terms of how assignment of blame is handled. I'm guessing it is mostly human nature to point fingers, as you put it, and therein culture does not play into it.

I was hesitant to even respond to this because I don't know what you are trying to get at. I can only assume that you think I'm trying to take some kind of holier than thou high road on the issue of blame. My statement about blame, if I recall correctly, was that I'm annoyed when the media and every arm chair offical sits back and critizes the way things are handled. That bugs me.

Maybe I'm Naive in thinking that most people do the best that they cank, and while I have not responded to one of these calls myself yet, and hope never to have to, I think that everyone involved works to the best of their ability to bring a violent situation like that to as peaceful and rapid of a conclusion as possible.

I'm not a big fan of second guessing, primairly because I have never been in that situation and therefore I don't think I have the right to critize how the situation was handled.

I'm not saying it was right, I'm not saying it was wrong. I'm just saying I don't like the way blame gets tossed about like stocks on wall street after a mess like this happens.

I still many not be understanding your point...

For what it's worth...


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Apr 20 21:26:41 2007 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>kurohyou said:
>>Instead of taking a cold hard look at what happened and looking inside of ourselves, humans, at least in the west, seem to have a knee jerk reaction to assign blame, it drives me crazy.
>
>
>While other cultures never point at anybody else to blame you mean?
>
I think what he means is that we are always looking to place blame as if we could actually stop this kind of thing from ever happening.
It the school's fault, it's the president of the school's fault, it's the gun's fault, it's the fault of the state for not warning everyone he was mentally unstable, etc. ad nauseum.

Certainly some things must be changed because of this, but no matter what gets done, human nature will not be changed and it will happen again, somewhere.


 



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