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Psychiatry: no science, no cures
FN Posted: Sun Jan 6 10:06:28 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V96aYXnRqKw


Discuss :)


 
addi Posted: Sun Jan 6 11:48:39 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Really interesting, Christophe.

One thing to keep in mind about this (and I'm not defending psychiatrists here)is that the mere fact that no difinitive test has yet been made to "prove" a specific mental disorder, does not mean that they don't exist or aren't real. Along that line because they can't hand you a hard copy read out of test results showing improvement by taking such and such drug (like a doc can do for blood tests)also doesn't automatically negate the helpfullness of that drug.

The mind is so unbelievely complicated that it's no surprise we haven't scratched the surface yet to unlocking all it's mysterious secrets.
Given a choice though I'd still take today's treatments, even with it being somewhat of a crap shoot, over how those with mental illnesses were dealt with as little as 3 decades ago.

"I know...lets do shock therapy, followed with a lobotomy!"

: )


 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 6 12:28:19 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Well I have no doubt that there are drugs out there which can turn people's brains of and sedate them on a mental level or do the opposite.


What I do have serious doubt about is whether anybody can take it seriously when diseases are created by voting.

Stuff like adhd and add get stuffed down people's throats all the time and in most cases all it does is turn unruly brats suddenly into victims who aren't responsible for anything they do and neither are the parents and both should be helped.


I know people who supposedly have add, and let me tell you, all the cure they needed would have been a smack on their ass when they were a kid so they would have gotten their act together


 
addi Posted: Sun Jan 6 12:42:23 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>Stuff like adhd and add get stuffed down people's throats all the time and in most cases all it does is turn unruly brats suddenly into victims who aren't responsible for anything they do and neither are the parents and both should be helped.

Oh I'm with you 100% on that. I saw it first hand in the classroom. A friend of my son's that I known from 1st grade thru college now has florished with his ADHD diagnosis and special treatment. He's very intelligent, but academically just lazy..so he's been given special treatment on any tests he's had to take, and his mother will scream bloody hell if he's given a bad grade (which he deserved) untill the teacher caves in and changes it. Everything has been handed to him on a silver platter, which in the long run isn't doing him any favors once he gets out the school and is suddenly faced with a world that could care less what mental issues he has.
It's sad really.


 
beetlebum Posted: Sun Jan 6 12:52:19 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i was always wary of adhd and add diagnoses. i'm sure there are some out there who do have a chemical imbalance of some sort, but it always seemed perfectly logical to me that as children are increasingly thrown in front of the TV and adults indulge their children's short attention spans (here, play this video game! here, let's watch movies in the car instead of talking!), the shorter their attention span will be during their life.

i grew up with very little TV and still had some problems concentrating at university. i think the american school system in some ways indulges a short attention span via busy work and short assignments. during my graduate studies i had to train myself to study at the library for eight or ten hours a day with a very small lunch break... i just figured that like every muscle in the body, the brain requires conditioning, and conditioning the brain to be able to read and focus for eight hours required (on my part, but maybe not for everyone else) so much willpower and the gritting of teeth. but it got easier as i went along.

anyway, don't get me wrong, it's not as though i have any of the answers. i just know that concentration for long periods of time isn't easy for most people so to turn it into a diagnosis seems silly to me... and in my case the inability to concentrate for more than an hour or two at a time was purely the result of not training myself to concentrate for long periods until i was in graduate school, and even then it took lots of effort but it was entirely achievable. :)


 
erikagm Posted: Tue Jan 8 01:33:18 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I totally agree. ADHD and ADD are all bull.

The perfect cure?

Get kids to READ!!! I never had problems concentrating although both of my siblings did, and none of us is smarter than the other. The difference? When I was a child, I lived with my grandmother, who from a VERY early age (around 3) instilled in me a love of reading that persists to this day.

I have not had problems concentrating on anything for whatever period of time (as long as I'm not fatigued).

Today's love of making wonderful stories and novels into movies just makes kids lazy. Exactly the sort of thing dubbing instead of subtitles did for the illiterate.


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Tue Jan 8 16:49:55 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  erikagm said:
>I totally agree. ADHD and ADD are all bull.


Actually, not

I feel like I have to do my say here because some of you have a totally misplaced idea of what ADHD and ADD really is...

ADHD and ADD are both difficult disorders, that need treatment

It aren't children or people that don't WANT to concentrate, they just CAN'T concentrate

It's like saying a paralysed person doesn't want to walk, but he can't because it is fysically impossible for him to walk...

That's a serieus nuance that you have to place, it aren't difficult children with bad Charakters that need better education edc.

@Erikagm
What applied to you, does not apply to everyone, you for instance, don't have ADHD or ADD, so you can't compare normal concentrating problems with disorders like ADHD and ADD

I spreak from my professional en educational experience with people with this disorder...


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Tue Jan 8 16:53:01 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I have some great artikels wich really state what i'm trying to say ...

But sadly they are in Dutch and that wouldn't help any of you one step further

I'll see if I can track some decent english material, if i find the time


 
FN Posted: Tue Jan 8 17:16:58 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  It's not only about ADHD/ADD

It's about the practice in general, also notice the difference between psychiatry and psychology btw.

I have no doubt that there are all kinds of mental disorders in varying degrees, the question is whether they're treatable with medicines and whether diagnoses aren't done too hastily.

Because as it is today, it seems that 60% of the kids under 12 are diagnosed with ADHD, it's all you hear


Back in my day (haha!) we didn't have no flippin' adhd! And we made do just as well dagnabbit


 
ifihadahif Posted: Tue Jan 8 19:30:29 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  When I was young, ADD and ADHD did not exist. Kids that would have been diagnosed with them back in the 60's were rigidly disciplined and for the most part it worked fine.
It seems that today that same type of discipline is non-existent and ADD and ADHD is the chic diagnosis.
As a school teacher, my wife will tell you that discipline is pretty much not allowed in the schools and the parents aren't doing much of it either.
Therein lies most of the problems, not with mental disorders but lack of discipline. Whenever a student is having a tough time in school, the parents seem to want ADD or ADHD diagnosed for their child. It's the damnedest thing.
This is something you see in the public schools and very rarely in the private schools. That should tell you something about it.
I think a swift kick in the ass would solve a lot of problems that are currently being handled with ritalin.


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Wed Jan 9 05:02:36 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Again, notice the fact that assessment today has changed, more children get tested, so it is the logical result that more children are diagnosed with adhd

How more known the disorder gets, how more parents will get their children tested, so logically you get more diagnoses,
Back in your old days, this disorder wasn't known, so logically, less diagnoses ...

It is not a HYPE, These disorders have a neurologic base, People with ADHD their brains function slightly biologically differently from ours, and this outs itself in their behavior


Hif what you say is partially right Ofcourse,also in treatment, they need structure, and discipline, but again,
that alone will not always (somethimes it does) work for these children
And ritaline helps them...

I also believe somethimes ritaline is prescribed to easy without trying the other (non medical) treatments first...

But when tried with no result, and still serieus concentration disorder, I believe ritaline is really needed

Also adhd and add are not only concentration disorders, thats only one of the symptoms

These children can also be very emotional and go trough extreem high and low moments, wich is very hard to deal with for a kid of that age
Ritaline also helps here

From my experience the children diagnosed with adhd or add, are glad they can finally sit in class without having the need to jump up and stuff like that

Also lots of parents choose to only give ritaline in schoolperiods,
and let the children of the medicine in holidays
wich i think is a good way to not "overdrug" the children.

>I have no doubt that there are all >kinds of mental disorders in varying >degrees, the question is whether >they're treatable with medicines and >whether diagnoses aren't done too >hastily.

Not all are treatable with medicines
again a nuance:
You tread some symptoms of the disorders with medicines, but you can't treat the whole disorder by taking in a pill

By giving medicines some heavily symptoms are taken away, wich leaves room for other kind of treatments
For instance to try to learn these people how to live with their disease and build up their good qualities and restcapablities they still have left




 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Wed Jan 9 05:08:00 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>
>Because as it is today, it seems that 60% of the kids under 12 are diagnosed with ADHD, it's all you hear
>

Nop, it is alot
But only 3 to 5 % of todays kids in school in Belgium are diagnosed with it ...

And 1 to 3 % adults at the moment


Also at the moment treatment for adhd in belgium contains of :
1) Psycho education
2) Medicine
3) Behavioral therapy


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 9 05:44:10 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I don't like a society in which a pill is the solution to everything.

I don't believe that 5% actually has ADD and that now all of a sudden it's a problem while 20 years ago all they got was a smack on their ass and it all went okay as well unless they were actually severely disturbed.

I know a few people in the schoolsystem, they all say the same: kids don't do well in school because they're too damn lazy or because they're just stupid and try to go above their level because their parents force them into it, and then they put the ADD label on there and it's all supposed to be ok


Again, I'm not saying that rilatin for example can not help some children.

But seriously, 5% of children?

About 7% of the people are lefthanded, just for reference.


 
addi Posted: Wed Jan 9 07:26:01 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>About 7% of the people are lefthanded, just for reference.

7% of what...The world as a whole, or that percentage of the kids taking ADD medication are lefthanded?


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 9 08:24:51 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  7% of the adult population.

I was trying to get a comparable number which people can think of to realize that 5% is a huge number of kids and that this 5% basicly appeared out of nowhere during the last 5 years.


 
libra Posted: Wed Jan 9 11:06:26 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I haven't had a chance to watch the video, but I will say...

I don't believe that the categorizations that psychiatry often creates are necessarily true. i see them as ways in which to define things in a manageable way... and I think this can become really overzealous. i think people forget that human-created categories are just that--human created.
But i think that people have chemical imbalances, disorders that arise from past experiences (ptsd, etc.).
Like a lot of you, I think ADD and ADHD have a lot to do with the way kids are raised today to think they have the right to do whatever they want whenever they want...and is probably a behavioral trait developed throughout childhood.
I think also, with the academically focused society we live in, people who might struggle through school but after high school find an alternative type of interest in some sort of trade are not as able to do that, so they are seen as different because of their inability to pursue a standard academic background.
My grade level was just about the last before the big ADD boom, and I see people who would maybe have been diagnosed that are able to do schoolwork, concentrate, etc.
on the other hand, my brother's group was heavily concentrated on, just a few years behind me, and he has so many friends who have some sort of diagnosis or another.


 
Mesh Posted: Wed Jan 9 11:12:02 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I read a book by Peter R. Breggin, M.D., A Psyciatrist himself, called Toxic Psychiatry. I would suggest giving it a read.


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Wed Jan 9 11:44:10 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>
>I don't believe that 5% actually has ADD and that now all of a sudden it's a problem while 20 years ago all they got was a smack on their ass and it all went okay as well unless they were actually severely disturbed.

That's where you are wrong
It also was a problem 20 years ago, but they weren't diagnosed with adhd, so they where punished for their behavior, where the actual fault does not lie with them

Lot's of those kids back then also ended up in psychiatrie, for drug and alcohol abuse,

What I'm saying isn't what i'm thinking, but it actually proven
hate the fact that i can't find decent english material


 
mat_j Posted: Wed Jan 9 12:16:52 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Hif makes a good point about discipline.

I dont necessarily agree with ADHD etc not existing, my friend had it as a kid (which lead to untold numbers of fist fights between us because the little ass hole was a reall nuisance!).

However, i think throwing pills at a problem is wild behaviour, i agree that a lot of conditions can be solved without the assistance of drugs. Using drugs instead of support or reducing the level of support because a person is on meds is madness. The most important weapon in the arsenal against mental illness is patience on the carers behalf, something all to many people lack.


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 9 12:33:59 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And on a totally unrelated note

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2672138.html


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Wed Jan 9 12:44:05 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Mat_j I agree with you and hif
Thats also what we try to do as occupation therapists with these children. We help them to learn how to focuss, to plan their time, to be able to follow classes like other children
Discipline and structure does help alot

If the parents aren't willing to give this to the child, then the child really suffers from it, you need a good social surrounding

but I must say, some children need more then a behavioral treatment
That doesn't mean I believe all of em need medication for adhd, each child must be viewed personally, you can't speak for all of em

Enhough said on ADhd

About the video:

What I want to keep stressing here is that you MINIMALISE syndroms of mental diseases with medication, but you can't CURE a mental disorder with only medicines, that's also why you work in a multidisciplinary team, and people get different kinds of treatments while being institutionalised

Lot's of people have a very bad idea of what treatment in a psychiatric institutions really is,
( Note: I know I can only speak for my country)

Anyhow, there's more then stuffing a pill in their mouth and saying, "well now you're fixed"

It's a real intense revalidation


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 9 12:54:22 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ~Just Imagine~ said:
>That doesn't mean I believe all of em need medication for adhd, each child must be viewed personally, you can't speak for all of em

Never did my dear

>It's a real intense revalidation

She's one of them believers! Spank her hif, she needs to be disciplined


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Wed Jan 9 13:21:25 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Ofcourse i believe!

I'm a student occupational therapy for crying out loud ! It's my future profession to give therapy to these children, I still believe in what I do and what I'm learning for!


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 9 14:18:32 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Well but asking your opinion on it then would pretty much be like asking a turkey about christmas.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Jan 9 15:22:47 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I believe they should take a look at how autism is treated.
If you've ever been around an autistic child, notice that they are like an ADHD child to the 10th power.

The most successful autism treatments today are ABA treatment and they are very intensely disciplined sessions.

An ABA therapist will not give an autistic child the opportunity to disengage for the entire session. They are made to focus on a task and when that task is completed they are made to focus on the next task.

It is a very intense form of discipline but it works and discipline will work for the overwhelming majority of those diagnosed with ADD but it will only work if they get it at home as well as school.
Hell if they don't get it at home, I don't blame the teacher who want the child medicated.
I believe most of it comes from lazy parenting.
If a child is struggling in school, the parents want to blame, the teachers, the counselors, and my god the child must be ADD/ADHD. It certainly couldn't be our bad parenting.



 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Wed Jan 9 16:44:07 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Well but asking your opinion on it then would pretty much be like asking a turkey about christmas.

Are you calling me a turkey :) ;)


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 9 18:52:14 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Maybe I am

What are you going to do about it, missy


 
FN Posted: Wed Jan 9 18:53:14 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Before you reply, know that I have a disarming charismatic charm and am not afraid to use it.

I'm also extremely modest.


 
mat_j Posted: Thu Jan 10 03:20:08 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  >What I want to keep stressing here is that you MINIMALISE syndroms of mental diseases with medication, but you can't CURE a mental disorder with only medicines, that's also why you work in a multidisciplinary team, and people get different kinds of treatments while being institutionalised


I agree with you totally, My friend's (The Bipolar bear) depression is being very succesfully treated by councilling at the moment but only because Anti Depressants have helped to put it into manageable parameters. It was an actual visible progression, when the AD's started kicking in it would jar his self doubt long enough to allow his counciling sessions to get into his mind and lay a foundation for an improved world view.

I saw him recently (he moved away at the end of the summer) and it's amazing to see the difference, Bear was of course always fun when he was on a high but there was always this dagger behind the curtains, it's still there sometimes but more often than not it's a harmless frozen fish instead and his road to recovery is good one.


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Thu Jan 10 07:51:19 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Before you reply, know that I have a disarming charismatic charm and am not afraid to use it.
>
>I'm also extremely modest.

Well I would have a very good reply on that, mister

but dazzeled by your charm and charisma, I will go no further then calling you a fish, a fish sir!




 
FN Posted: Mon Feb 25 10:18:51 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrWCYF8WB9w


 



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