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Bulgaria's abandoned children
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Sat Jan 19 13:28:55 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  This reminds me alot of roemenia a while back

The movie breaks my heart
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9176914173325307126


"When I'll become a swallow, I will sing and chirp every morning..."


 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 19 13:57:33 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Seen it, didn't like the situation either.


But I seriously despise all the people jumping the bandwagon all of a sudden (like that asswipe Chris Duchauchoit) like they didn't realise there was trouble in the world before, and now singling this case out as the worst thing ever happening to a child in the history of mankind and trivialising the other misery children have to endure in the process.

Half of the children in the video barely know they're alive, I say child soldiers who are forced into killing their family with a machete or little girls who get kidnapped after seeing their families get slaughtered only to get raped by dozens of doped up aids infected jungle guerilla's a day and who are totally aware of what's going on have it far worse.


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Sat Jan 19 15:02:40 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Wrong

Alot of these children are only deaf
some are only blind
The girl Didi, is only slightly autistic...
These are the ones suffering most from it...
They just get crazy along the way because they are institutionalised like this...

This reminds me why I am studying for occupational therapist

My school started projects in Roemenia when they had conditions like this,
teachers warm us up to do the same, to start projects and educate staf

at the moment, i'm so riled up i'd fly there and start waking people up.

*Sigh*
It should be less idealistic


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Sat Jan 19 15:14:48 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And another thing! How the hell can a country that treats children like this be EU worthy...


Thoughts people, thoughts ...


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Sat Jan 19 15:33:51 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  and Christophe, acknowledging that these children suffer, does not mean that you forget that other children in other countries suffer too...

And saying that children suffer everywhere, does not give you the right to say, well hey, they're not the only one's, let's not make a big deal out of it

I'll shut up now


 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 19 15:59:35 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ~Just Imagine~ said:
>Wrong

Actually not really, quite a few of them around there with down syndrome for starters

I have it on pretty good authority that they barely now what's going on, there's little to no active thought going on in there apparantly depending on the severity

>Alot of these children are only deaf
>some are only blind

We must have been watching different documentaries

>The girl Didi, is only slightly autistic...

She was the "best" one of the lot, true, but she wasn't "slightly" anything. I mean it seemed like she had some other stuff not really going for her either.

>These are the ones suffering most from it...

I agree, the one like didi still had a grasp of reality

>They just get crazy along the way because they are institutionalised like this...

I think a lot of them would be crazy regardless

>at the moment, i'm so riled up i'd fly there and start waking people up.

It's their culture, all cultures are equal ;)

>*Sigh*
>It should be less idealistic

Nah, but maybe a bit less selective at the indignation. Truly, there is far more graver stuff going on than this and you knew about it before the documentary, just like all the people now being the grand saviors and wanting "political action" over it like they have any idea about what it entails.

I'm not saying that thereby it is justified that kids live under these conditions, I'm saying that to me the sudden revelation about non-western situations comes a little late for all the people making a big deal out of this.

I think it'd be better if they were humanely euthanised but I guess that'll make me a heretic as well.


 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 19 16:02:36 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ~Just Imagine~ said:
>And another thing! How the hell can a country that treats children like this be EU worthy...
>
>Thoughts people, thoughts ...

The EU is not a federation.

I don't see what one thing has to do with the other. You don't think that children are being mistreated around here either?

And even then, it was 1 rural institution, who says it's the same all over the country?

I'd invite you to go and take a look in africa/india/china/russia and see how they take care of business over there if you think kids have it bad in bulgaria.


 
FN Posted: Sat Jan 19 16:06:28 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ~Just Imagine~ said:
>and Christophe, acknowledging that these children suffer, does not mean that you forget that other children in other countries suffer too...

No, but screaming fire and murder over this one does diminish the other stuff, just like going "omg omg omg 9/11 9/11 9/11" is making a justified upheaval over a horrific event but relatively speaking is nothing compared to what goes on outside of the western world on a daily basis.

I really, really have a hard time with people only getting active when they feel like it and then get pissed at people like me who dare to ask where they were with their zealous concerns before it became a public cause.

>And saying that children suffer everywhere, does not give you the right to say, well hey, they're not the only one's, let's not make a big deal out of it
>
>I'll shut up now

I never said I don't think it's a serious matter, I do think it's a serious matter but I say that it was something everybody who's half informed about anything basicly knew about in advance: once you go outside of the western world a human life is worth exactly: nothing.


 
erikagm Posted: Sat Jan 19 22:38:46 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Actually not really, quite a few of them around there with down syndrome for starters
>
>I have it on pretty good authority that they barely now what's going on, there's little to no active thought going on in there apparantly depending on the severity

Actually, Cristophe, I didn't see more than one or maybe two children on the documentary who -might- have had the typical phenotype of Down Syndrome, and by what I saw I think I saw more than 50 different "kids" there. Most of them looked like they had differing degrees of cerebral palsy, though, but that is completely different and totally unrelated to Down Syndrome. Down S. is a genetic disorder, while cerebral palsy can be cause by anything from in-utero developmental defects, lack of oxygen at birth or improper nutrition during very early growth stages.

>We must have been watching different documentaries

Yes, we must have, I watched the one that Just Imagine's link pointed me to, how about you?

>She was the "best" one of the lot, true, but she wasn't "slightly" anything. I mean it seemed like she had some other stuff not really going for her either.

Actually, she WAS slightly autistic. She has a highly functional autistic in fact, the kind that can still communicate coherently and can demonstrate emotion and tolerate outside contact to a very high degree. She is SO "slightly" autistic, that she can actually perform tasks of her own volition. If she had been given enough education and training, she could live at an outpatient facility or even on her own, sort of like Sean Penn in the "I am Sam" movie.

>I think a lot of them would be crazy regardless

Actually Cristophe, you are wrong on that point. Had they been given proper care and socialization from the get go, most of these children would at least still be mobile and coherent, regardless of their impediments. As it is, and based on my own experience working with handicapped children (I volunteered all through high school) I can tell you that most of these children appear to be that way because they are unsocialized, they are not being emotionally or educationally stimulated, and the "rocking" motion a lot of them seem to display is described in psychiatric texts as "mirroring" another one of their peers who -was- sick enough to display those symptoms. This happens because they are confined in closed quarters with those peers regardless of their individual degrees of impediments.

>I think it'd be better if they were humanely euthanised but I guess that'll make me a heretic as well.

At the point they're at now, I agree that with some of them it would be even charitable to do so. However, there are a lot of them that still look salvageable, if someone took any interest at all in doing so. However, from the look of the attitude of the staff that I could see in the video, their only concern is to keep these kids alive, which is what they were hired to do, and they make no effort whatsoever into stimulating them to see if any of them will come out of their cocoon.


 
erikagm Posted: Sat Jan 19 22:48:07 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  And most of the children in the "bedridden" ward appear to be in their dire state only because of malnourishment, which is basically what causes some of the symptoms (such as the portruding tongue) you might have confused with Down's.

It is sad to see they are not given any physiotherapy or even proper nourishment.


 
erikagm Posted: Sat Jan 19 23:15:14 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Correction. Out of all of the children they showed, (and they say there are 75), I saw about 6 of them with possible Down's Syndrome. A few of them were presented more than once though, so that could be another reason for your confusion.


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Sun Jan 20 03:34:22 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:

>The EU is not a federation.
>
>I don't see what one thing has to do with the other. You don't think that children are being mistreated around here either?

not 75 all at one place, no

the thing is, lots can be done there, by the looks of it, they have the money, they just have no trained staff and mentality in the country must change.
>
>And even then, it was 1 rural institution, who says it's the same all over the country?

It is one of the best in the country,
so actually it's even worse in othere institutions over there
Dit we watch the same movie ?

>
>I'd invite you to go and take a look in africa/india/china/russia and see how they take care of business over there if you think kids have it bad in bulgaria.

Well if everything goes well I'll be spending 3 months in Africa next year, i'll let you know


 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 20 07:05:20 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I watched the documentary which they showed on Nederland1 and Canvas, which I'm pretty sure is the same one considering how close to that this surfaces, can't watch this one because of the damn download limit I have.

But yeah, say hi to the handicapped starving aids kids in africa for me, I bet quite a few of them wouldn't mind trading with a bulgarian kid who gets food on the plate at least on a semi regular basis.


I'd like to state again though, I don't condone the situation in that facility, but bulgaria is a pretty poor country so what do you expect, and now all the blame about this sort of thing all of a sudden is directed towards bulgaria when at least they have this type of a home, in russia most of those kids would be living in the sewers, in india they'd be twisting in the mud, in china they'd be thrown in jail to die and in africa if there wasn't billions upon billions of aid poured into it they wouldn't live past the age of 2.

But no, it's easier to pick out bulgaria because somebody made a fancy documentary about it. That's what pisses me off.


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Sun Jan 20 08:57:28 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:


>
>I'd like to state again though, I don't condone the situation in that facility, but bulgaria is a pretty poor country so what do you expect, and now all the blame about this sort of thing all of a sudden is directed towards bulgaria when at least they have this type of a home,

You don't get the point, They HAVE the money, don't you see, they have a sensory room, but just don't use it, they have money for a tv for staff, they have a swimmingpool, but no child is aloud in it, when asked at the principal what she thinks the institute needs most, she says: "a computer", thats messed up, they need vitamins, fresh air, fresh food, daily activities, some sort of education, they need love, they are malnutritioned , haven't you seen the legs, the arms? it's pure bone, they have no reserves...
And yet you say they get all the food they needed, yeah right


It is in the mentality of the country and in the training of their caregivers that something went wrong
Thats the big difference with the countries you name, that effectively don't have the money for it
Big difference, and thats why it's upsetting!


>in russia most of those kids would be living in the sewers, in india they'd be twisting in the mud, in china they'd be thrown in jail to die and in africa if there wasn't billions upon billions of aid poured into it they wouldn't live past the age of 2.
>
>But no, it's easier to pick out bulgaria because somebody made a fancy documentary about it. That's what pisses me off.

You are so upset because things get into the open, i'll tell you something, you wouldn't even cared about it, if you hadn't seen it, media for me is a good way to kick some sence into people, I am not agains documentaries like this, they can make a change, and at the end, thats what is needed.
How else will you make the change?
Telling them nicely? Now you can put some pressure on the country that has the ability to change...

You think people would care about africa if images weren't smashed into there faces, face it, when some people don't see it they just don't care, and we need the support of every man we can get, so




 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Sun Jan 20 09:02:57 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>I watched the documentary which they showed on Nederland1 and Canvas, which I'm pretty sure is the same one considering how close to that this surfaces, can't watch this one because of the damn download limit I have.
>

It is the same, but I have no clue how you're able to interpretate things so differently...
The Things i said,
Like some kids overthere are only born deaf or blind, with no mental retardation...
That didi is only slightly autistic...
That this is one of the best institutions in bulgaria...

These are the things you missed while watching, while they are the most important of all...
It showes clearly that something is horribly wrong overthere...

Maybe you should watch it again more clearly, before you state out things so wrongly and misinterpretated





 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 20 09:27:07 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ~Just Imagine~ said:
>You don't get the point, They HAVE the money, don't you see, they have a sensory room, but just don't use it, they have money for a tv for staff, they have a swimmingpool,...
>And yet you say they get all the food they needed, yeah right

We're talking about bulgaria here, not belgium, having stuff like a swimming pool is one thing, having the means to maintain it is another.

Also, the people there were understaffed, what would you expect that 1 person to do during the night shift

I didn't say they have all the food they need, I said that apparantly they do get *some* and even though there were some really skinny ones they didn't all look like concentration camp victims.

>It is in the mentality of the country and in the training of their caregivers that something went wrong
>Thats the big difference with the countries you name, that effectively don't have the money for it
>Big difference, and thats why it's upsetting!

What makes you so sure that bulgaria is a rich and prosperous nation? It's the poorest nation of the EU, how amazing is it that they have more pressing stuff to spend their money on than half-conscious handicapped kids? It may sound harsh but that's the reality of it, here way, way too much money is spent on staff and infrastructure for mentally handicapped kids, there they don't have the luxury of throwing money out of the window

>>But no, it's easier to pick out bulgaria because somebody made a fancy documentary about it. That's what pisses me off.
>
>You are so upset because things get into the open, i'll tell you something, you wouldn't even cared about it, if you hadn't seen it, media for me is a good way to kick some sence into people, I am not agains documentaries like this, they can make a change, and at the end, thats what is needed.

First of all, I have nothing invested in Bulgaria, they're a member of the EU but that's as far as my personal affinity with the country goes, I have no hidden agenda as to why I'd feel obliged to defend them. I am not defending them, I'm saying put it in perspective and I'm saying that I want to physicly smack people on the head for acting all surprised all of a sudden and then give me the righteous indignation when I point out to them that they knew about those conditions well before.

All the hype that it has now will be gone in 2 weeks at the very most and all those do-gooders now will feel like they're good people because they cared for 5 minutes or made a 5€ donation and had a communal sense of compassion. Fuck that.

Also, in the open? It has never been not in the open, that's the point I'm making.

Everybody with half a clue as to how the world works knows about situations like these and much graver ones that aren't just about neglect but add some torture in the mix as well and what not, just like everybody knows that africa is crippled by aids, famine, corruption and backward cultures and the plight of girls/women in africa/middle east and the list goes on from here to the endless boundaries of space.

>How else will you make the change?
>Telling them nicely? Now you can put some pressure on the country that has the ability to change...

Why should bulgaria as a nation be punished for how some individuals/poor management by the state/lack of funds lead to children not getting proper care. Blame it on the freeloading parents who drop their kids there instead of on the nation itself that has to cope with the limited means that it has.

>You think people would care about africa if images weren't smashed into there faces, face it, when some people don't see it they just don't care, and we need the support of every man we can get, so

People don't care about africa, what gave you that idea.

You think saying you (not meaning you personally but in general) care gives you any moral credibility? Or buying off your conscience with 100€ in donations over the period of a lifetime?

People act like they care in bursts of mass hysteria and to make them look good, once the media hype dies out so does the compassion.

It's funny by the way that you mention africa. Where was chris duchauchoit and his vast legions of world improvers when darfur was (and still is) getting massacred, how do you think kids get treated over there?

By the end of 2006 alone there were already over 400 000 people killed and 2 million on the run for horseback riding milias. How the hell do they treat their children there? Where's the massive outrage about that and how the hell do you justify this amount of a stir up about a bulgarian institute over the virtual lack of care about what goes on there for example while you could name literally dozens of other places with similar pure evil shit going on.

But nobody cares because it's black people in africa, but show a bunch of white handicapped kids not getting perfect treatment for whatever reason and everybody is up in arms. And everybody here knows I'm a cultural racist but that doesn't fucking mean I feel like every single one of them should get butchered with machetes. But at least I'm honest about it and seriously if there was anything I could do to stop it I would even though I don't care for these people aside from the fact that I feel like every human being who has is innocent is worth protecting, but you can't and I don't pretend to either.

Where are the massive outcries to stop the trafficing of girls and women? Who do you think has it worse, those handicapped kids who don't know what's going on or kidnapped eastern european girls who get raped several times a day in a country they never heard of

There's so much indredible shit going on in the world and it just pisses me off so incredibly much that people then are so fucking dumb that they only pick out crap like this. Where the fuck are they with their cries for "political pressure" and protest to close the concentration camps in north korea where entire families of political dissidents get shipped to to do forced labour, where they conduct chemical experiments on them and kill babies born to prisoners? How are the lives of those kids you think?

http://wikimapia.org/#y=42577608&x=129893074&z=14&l=0&m=a&v=2

See that? That's 50 000 people living in hell at this exact moment while you are reading this, right there. Seriously stop reading for 5 seconds and think about what is going on in that concentration camp at this very moment.

But no, there was a cool documentary about evil bulgaria and now bulgaria is priority number one and should be punished for its sins.

Jesus fucking christ, I'm sorry but stuff like this strikes a nerve with me in a way that very little else does, the pure damn hypocrisy and ignorance goes so far beyond my wildest imagination that I'd like to shoot the world in the head sometimes.


 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 20 09:34:21 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Again I'd like to state that my shall I say "passion" towards matters like these isn't directed to you personally, it's directed toward the masses which you might or might not be a part of.

I cringe when I hear the common folk demand "political pressure" like it's something you do while peeling potatos or when the plebs gets riled up over in the grand scheme of things quite simply trivialities while so much graver stuff goes on that they either don't know about or don't care about because it's not the hype of the week


 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 20 10:06:38 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Some food for thought:


“A man who says: “I like this, I take it for my own and mean to protect it and defend it against everyone”, a man who can do something, carry out a decision, remain true to an idea, punish and put down insolence, a man who has his anger and his sword and to whom the weak, suffering, oppressed, and the animals too are glad to submit and belong by nature, in short a man who is by nature a master – when such a man has pity, well! That pity has value! But of what account is the pity of those who suffer, or worse, of those who preach pity.”

Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil



“There is no doubt that in exchanging a self-centered for a selfless life we gain enormously in self-esteem. The vanity of the selfless, even those who practice utmost humility, is boundless. When hopes and dreams are loose on the streets, it is well for the timid to lock doors, shutter windows, and lie low until the wrath has passed. For there is often a monstrous incongruity between the hopes, however noble and tender, and the action which follows them. Though ours is a Godless age, it is the very opposite of irreligious. The true believer is everywhere on the march, and both by converting and antagonizing he is shaping the world in his own image. Whether we line up with him or against him, it is well we should know all we can concerning his nature and potentialities.”

Eric Hoffer, The True Believer


“Among helpful and charitable people one almost always finds that clumsy deceitfulness which first adjusts and adapts him who is to be helped: as if, for example, he “deserved” help, desired precisely their help, and would prove profoundly grateful, faithful and submissive to them in return for all the help he had received – with these imaginings they dispose of those in need as if they were possessions, and are charitable and helpful at all only from a desire for possessions. They are jealous if one frustrates or anticipates them when they want to help.”

Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil



“The burning conviction that we have a holy duty toward others is often a way of attaching our drowning selves to a passing raft. What looks like giving a hand is often a holding on for dear life. Take away our holy duties and you leave our lives puny and meaningless. There is no doubt that in exchanging a self-centered for a selfless life we gain enormously in self-esteem. The vanity of the selfless, even those who practice utmost humility, is boundless”.

Eric Hoffer, The True Believer


 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Sun Jan 20 10:28:30 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ok
Let's try it from another perspective shall we...
Caus I need you to understand why I give a fuck (not really, but I try to explain anyway) and why making a big deal about it is necesary, change there is a good thing...

From what I'm studying and learning everyday I know that you can change alot in Bulgaria, for the better
Without many costs, in a short amount of time.
Make the balance:
- They have good housing
- They get basic care (washing everyday, feeding (although not properly), clean clothes and sheets
- They have some toys
- They have a sensory room

Thes are all good things. The only thing you'll spend money on is training staff and paying extra workers.
These children miss out on alot, just because it is in the mentality of the nation not to care for disabled childeren.
If you change the mentality in the country (wich is hard to do, i know), alot of people wouldn't give up there deaf or blind kids and let them waste away. They take up care themselves, because thats what parents should do.


I know for a fact what is needed there to give those children the care they need. And I'm not one of those who's willing to put money in it, I'm one of those who's willing to go there and train people.

I know it's hard for some people to care about disabled children, this movie touches me, because it's something I'm willing to dedicate my life too.
Not because I want to buy a space into heaven (I'm not religieus, so I don't care)or buy of my bad concience, but simply because I care.

And this point must be strange to accept, but I just simply care.

I have linked this movie to some of my close friends and their reaction was alot like yours, what do they care for disabled children in an institution in Bulgaria? And as much as I want to scream and shout that those children have the right for a better life, I can't blame them for thinking like that, and thinking like you

I do believe you have a good point,
Suffering is everywhere,
and I get why it frustrates you that all is focussed on Bulgaria right now, and paying no attention to the rest of the worlds suffering

But believe it or not, you can't change everything at the same time
Sometimes the only way to make a change is to put focus on one thing, and finish it off. And then focus on another thing. etc.

Changing the world will take time you know :)

I can't stand up for every kind of suffering, but I can make a stand for the suffering where I am able to do something about it, like this one.







 
FN Posted: Sun Jan 20 11:08:01 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Fair enough


 



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