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Election night!
Posted: Tue Nov 4 21:55:46 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  So how's everybody doing?

I'm sitting around with chinese takeout and watching the results roll in, with some mariokart interspersed. Thinking about just watching Mad Men soon, I can only watch Wolf Blitzer for so long before I start feeling self conscious about my own beard.


 
libra Posted: Tue Nov 4 22:05:24 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i'm supposed to be reading anthropology.

its hard to read anthropology right now.


 
Ahriman Posted: Tue Nov 4 23:03:45 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Congrats Obama!


 
libra Posted: Tue Nov 4 23:23:45 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I am very happy right now!


 
sweet p Posted: Tue Nov 4 23:51:56 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  :)


 
Mark Posted: Wed Nov 5 01:59:37 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  So Obama won the election. I must confess that I didn't thoroughly read into their opinions and plan and stuff, but I do think Obama has been hyped here in the Netherlands. I don't know how it was / is at the other side of the ocean. Here it was almost as if we were told that when Obama would come into office it would instantly go better with the world.

Let me tell you this to all the people who voted for Obama (which are a lot). You are expecting huge changes, making everything better preferably as soon as possible. It won't happen. You can't change a country rigorously in four years, even eight would be pretty impossible. To all you voters, you will be dissatisfied, vote republican the next time, to switch back to democrats after that. You can switch all you want. You'll never get to see change quick enough to satisfy yourself.

A historical victory? Perhaps, but only for his color of skin.
Bleh I hate hyped politics. "Change has come". Lol, as if.

(Here it's the same btw, nothing unique for the USA_

I'll stop ranting now.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 02:56:42 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  "He's not my president, I'm seriously thinking of moving to Canada"

Sounds silly and childish doesn't it ?


 
mat_j Posted: Wed Nov 5 03:57:28 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  No Hif, you're entitled to your opinion now you live in the land of the free again!

Sorry, couldn't resist.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 06:32:21 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  mat_j said:
>No Hif, you're entitled to your opinion now you live in the land of the free again!
>
>Sorry, couldn't resist.
>
He'll be a one term prez and it will be like four more years of Jimmy Carter.

But as an American citizen, he is my president and I will do my best to give him the benefit of the doubt until such time as he fucks up royally.
I do have my fears that Obama's administration is going to make most conservatives long for the days of Clinton. Yecch !

I truly am happy for the black community because I do see him as a positive influence on them, certainly compared to their current "leaders" Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. I hope to see those two assholes fade away now.
At least Obama won't be preaching to young black Amercians the religion of perpetual victimhood.

As for the promised tax break, if it comes, he will be the first democrat since Kennedy to lower taxes.
Does anyone other than Addi here remember that Clinton made similar promises and then crawfished on them ?
At any rate if they do come, I am certainly under the $120,000.00 threshold (the last number presented before the election) and would benefit from them.
However I do have a problem with my neighbors working very hard so they can send me money.

And as for those $1000 checks he promises to send out, I think I will give mine to the Sarah Palin 2012 campaign fund.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 5 07:27:16 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Morning after election night hang over.
Still basking in the win last night. I'll try not to gloat too much over the coming days, but it won't be easy.

I have to smile about the pissed off republicans I've heard say they're considering moving to Canada (not just here). Now when have I heard that line before? : )
I think it's a smart move personally...I mean it's a great way to avoid being under any kind of socialized government programs. ; )

And Mark, any fool that thinks Barack is going to magically fix all the HUGE messes Bush left us in will be very disappointed. But anyone that thinks he's not going to make significant strides to point us in the right direction and improve our domestic and foreign policy messes is off base too.
And anyone predicting "he's a one term" pres most likely also said there's no way he'd ever get elected in the first place..so you can take their opinions with a grain of salt. It's mostly sour grapes.

WootWoot! It's about damn time we had someone competant in the oval office.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 5 07:54:08 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  So with the king being dead, long live the king, etc. I'll boldly make some predictions:


People expect way too much of Obama. Ofcourse that's true with any politician, but I think he's been hyped to new heights, maybe partly because of the mindset of the groups he appeals most to.

Resulting from that I'm willing to bet with anybody right now that after this record breaking voter turnout of this time, next elections will be marked by a just as chattering lack of voters because half of those who voted obama now will end up cursing him in 4 years for not being the divinity.

Like Mark said, next president will be a republican (and by next president I mean the next elected one, not the guy nobody's heard of until now who'd take obama's place if he'd get shot). I'm so certain of it in fact that I'm going to bet on it for 250€ with some friends if I can find anybody in my vicinity who'll want to call me on it. I'll keep you guys posted.



Also, if you guys thought the current republicans were right wingers, check back in 4 years. If there were shares to be bought in stuff like the KKK I'd say now's the time to buy them.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 08:20:43 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>
>WootWoot! It's about damn time we had someone competant in the oval office.
>
I have only this to ask you, what exactly is it about this man that makes you think he's competent ?
He only has his charisma to go on.
He has zero experience in national politics and no accomplishments in his life other than two memoirs.
If you believe he's competent, and many obviously do, it has to be because you believe the promises he makes.
And why do so many believe the promises hes makes ? It has to be because of his charisma as he has nothing else to stand on. Certainly not his record as he has none.
What has this man done in his lifetime that could make you think he'd be a competent president ?
This is a question I've asked more than once and no one has yet even tried to answer it.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 5 08:34:36 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>addi said:
>>
>>WootWoot! It's about damn time we had someone competant in the oval office.
>>
>I have only this to ask you, what exactly is it about this man that makes you think he's competent ?
>He only has his charisma to go on.
>He has zero experience in national politics and no accomplishments in his life other than two memoirs.
>If you believe he's competent, and many obviously do, it has to be because you believe the promises he makes.
>And why do so many believe the promises hes makes ? It has to be because of his charisma as he has nothing else to stand on. Certainly not his record as he has none.
>What has this man done in his lifetime that could make you think he'd be a competent president ?
>This is a question I've asked more than once and no one has yet even tried to answer it.

I agree with most of it but in the respect that he knows how to play the crowds it says a lot about his capabilities to *become* president (that and the fact he got elected ;) but being a good entertainer, because that's basicly what it boils down to, to me says little about his skill at *being* president.

Which is why I don't get it either what makes him so hyped, aside from the fact that he's black.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 5 08:54:14 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Obviously I believe Obama is more than just a black man with good speaking skills.
It's really absurd to go into any kind of defense of his particular positions at this point, not because I couldn't, but because after nearly two freaking years of a constant barrage of very public speeches he's given if all you think he has going for him consists of his skin color and that he can put a well formed series of sentences together...then anything I write here is completely pointless.

I can't speak for you Christophe, but hiffer has made it very clear his greatest desire is that Obama crashes and burns in the coming years. It's a testiment to putting petty self-interests ahead of what's best for the country right now.
The fact alone that he supports Ms. Dingbat...I mean Sarah Palin in 2012 should tell you how much he values intelligence and sound judgement in a president.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 09:03:46 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>Obviously I believe Obama is more than just a black man with good speaking skills.
>It's really absurd to go into any kind of defense of his particular positions at this point, not because I couldn't, but because after nearly two freaking years of a constant barrage of very public speeches he's given if all you think he has going for him consists of his skin color and that he can put a well formed series of sentences together...then anything I write here is completely pointless.
>
See, once again the question goes unanswered, and I'm pretty sure I have not once mentioned skin color.

>I can't speak for you Christophe, but hiffer has made it very clear his greatest desire is that Obama crashes and burns in the coming years. It's a testiment to putting petty self-interests ahead of what's best for the country right now.
>
No, I don't desire that he crash and burn, but I do expect that it will happen.
None of his economic policies are conducive to rebuilding the economy that his party fucked up in the first place. He is so naive in his foreign policy experience that when Russia invaded Georgia, he wanted to take it to the UN where Russia sits on the security council. HA !
>The fact alone that he supports Ms. Dingbat...I mean Sarah Palin in 2012 should tell you how much he values intelligence and sound judgement in a president.
>
Say what you want about Sarah Palin, but at least she has a record of achievement to stand on. Obama has two memoirs and some speeches, nothing more.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 5 11:19:08 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>It's a testiment to putting petty self-interests ahead of what's best for the country right now.

See that's just it.

I think that Obama's election is based on the majority of voters putting their own (percieved) self interest ahead of what's best for their country.

I'm talking non-white people voting for him because he's non-white and disgruntled middle class and especially lower classes voting because they expect him to rob the rich for them.

There's nothing altruistic about socialism.


 
libra Posted: Wed Nov 5 11:48:55 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I'm really fucking excited to have a Constitutional Law Professor as president. I'd say that's a pretty damn good qualification, especially since our last president didn't seem to know what the constitution was or what it said.




 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 5 11:52:41 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>I'm really fucking excited

LOL!
I do love it when you talk dirty, libra.

: )


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 11:53:37 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>addi said:
>>It's a testiment to putting petty self-interests ahead of what's best for the country right now.
>
>See that's just it.
>
>I think that Obama's election is based on the majority of voters putting their own (percieved) self interest ahead of what's best for their country.
>
>I'm talking non-white people voting for him because he's non-white and disgruntled middle class and especially lower classes voting because they expect him to rob the rich for them.
>
>There's nothing altruistic about socialism.
>
I just don't get it.
This guy has accomplished nothing in his life to suggest he can be president.
And none of his supporters can tell me why they believe his bullshit other than to say he will bring change and he's gonna make things better. No specifics. I have even asked this question several times here on GT and still no one has tried to answer it.

Even more disturbing, he said he would pay for his new programs by raising taxes and cutting from other programs, but has yet to say where he will make those cuts.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 12:03:48 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>I'm really fucking excited to have a Constitutional Law Professor as president. I'd say that's a pretty damn good qualification, especially since our last president didn't seem to know what the constitution was or what it said.
>
By you logic, then you should support Ann Coulter for president.
Would that make you fucking excited ?


 
libra Posted: Wed Nov 5 12:18:40 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>libra said:
>>I'm really fucking excited to have a Constitutional Law Professor as president. I'd say that's a pretty damn good qualification, especially since our last president didn't seem to know what the constitution was or what it said.
>>
>By you logic, then you should support Ann Coulter for president.
>Would that make you fucking excited ?

Ann Coulter wasn't a Constitutional Law Professor.
She just has a law degree.




 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 12:33:18 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>libra said:
>>>I'm really fucking excited to have a Constitutional Law Professor as president. I'd say that's a pretty damn good qualification, especially since our last president didn't seem to know what the constitution was or what it said.
>>>
>>By you logic, then you should support Ann Coulter for president.
>>Would that make you fucking excited ?
>
>Ann Coulter wasn't a Constitutional Law Professor.
>She just has a law degree.
>
I'm sorry, your are correct, she is not a constitutional law professor, she is a constitutional attorney. She apparently chose to practice her craft in real world rather than hide in the halls of academia.
In any case being a law professor does not in any way qualify one for being commander in chief, particularly when said professor has never practiced his craft in the real world.


 
Kira Posted: Wed Nov 5 12:52:02 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I got what I wanted. But my expectations were realistic.

I am pretty pissed about my new governor though. She has the IQ of a stalk of broccoli.


 
libra Posted: Wed Nov 5 12:56:49 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Being a litigator isn't the same thing as being a constitutional law professor.
Being an expert on Constitutional Law is a requirement I would like for every president.
The "halls of academia" are not a hiding place. They are a place where the brightest minds in this country are constantly challenging each other to do better. And Obama put his knowledge to use in the 'real' world as well...
Obama was elected editor of the Harvard Law Review, directed multiple foundations and organizations with focuses on community development, poverty and civil rights, was a member of a civil rights-focused law firm, was on the State Legislature, taught constitutional law, and is a US senator.
I am glad to have a president with such a resume.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 12:56:56 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>libra said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>>libra said:
>>>>I'm really fucking excited to have a Constitutional Law Professor as president. I'd say that's a pretty damn good qualification, especially since our last president didn't seem to know what the constitution was or what it said.
>>>>
>>>By you logic, then you should support Ann Coulter for president.
>>>Would that make you fucking excited ?
>>
>>Ann Coulter wasn't a Constitutional Law Professor.
>>She just has a law degree.
>>
>I'm sorry, your are correct, she is not a constitutional law professor, she is a constitutional attorney. She apparently chose to practice her craft in real world rather than hide in the halls of academia.
>In any case being a law professor does not in any way qualify one for being commander in chief, particularly when said professor has never practiced his craft in the real world.
>
Libra, I get that you're stoked about Obama getting elected.
I just don't get why people love this guy so much.
What has he ever done in his life to make you think he can be a good prez ?

I think people are in love with his charisma and believe everything he says.



 
beetlebum Posted: Wed Nov 5 13:02:40 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I was really moved by Obama's speech; I definitely agree that he is a great orator.

That said, I really do not understand why people think he is qualified. I really don't. I am hopeful that he will do an amazing job, and I am excited that America has voted a minority into office because that really means we have made progress over these past fifty years, but I am wary of where our country will be in four years.

Obama being a Constitutional Law professor is great (and I am hoping that experience signals a discerning and critical mind!), but would not be first on my list of Presidential qualifications. I would sooner love to have a President be a Professor of international relations, comparative government, economics, institutions and policy, or even international law-- expertise that the Judicial Branch of our government is not expressly designated to provide.

I don't think the liberal media was hard enough on him or Biden. I don't understand why Palin was raked over the coals for the brother-in-law debacle, while Obama's support for one of the most corrupt political machines in America went mostly unnoticed. (They both should have been raked over the coals, if we are going to have coal-raking.) I also do not understand why the media did not go nuts over his shady past, his far-far-left associations, and his college years, when Bush's college years and time in the National Guard were both harshly examined.

I'm not saying that these discoveries would have prevented him from becoming Pres, or even that they should have, but I am definitely saddened by the fact that people are satisfied with the mainstream media's coverage of both candidates in this election. I know McCain spun the facts, but Obama did not even bother to spin-- he just kept his mouth shut and (seemingly) asked others to do the same(?) about his past. To be clear, I would care less if he had done drugs or participated in some far-left protests. I am more worried that he made some alliances with some radicals, alliances that helped behind the scenes to propel him to national prominence. Hopefully I am way off base, but I still think it is naive for anyone to think that he is the 'breath of fresh air' that Washington needs. He plays the game as well as anyone.

I also worry about Obama's consistent voting with Democrats and that his voting record (voting with Dems 96% of the time) demonstrates an overall lack of fiscal conservatism. (I am not saying that all of the bills he voted for were fiscally irresponsible; I am just asserting that he definitely leans towards spending and sticks with the party line. What I wouldn't give for an old-school, pre-1970 democrat).

Also, I agree with Christophe. People are expecting way too much of the man (without, I think, knowing *exactly* what they expect) and should be incredibly worried that they just handled a spend-happy party complete control of two branches of government. Obama has made alot of promises to alot of people. I'll be interested to see how he makes out. At least he does not have to negotiate or seek compromise with the the party that represents the other half of the country, right? Should make things easier on him to do whatever he thinks he needs to do to set things right. I truly hope he does phenomenally well and does right by all Americans. I'm just not making any plans based upon the assumption that he will.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 5 13:10:44 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Also, let's be realistic here, half of the people who voted for obama now would have voted for him if he'd been a republican just as easily.

No matter how you look at it, race and racism is a huge factor in his election.


What bothers me most about that is that people simply don't admit it while it just drips off their face when they say it has nothing to do with race.

Example: last night on a "talkshow" I appreciate there were 2 american black basketballplayers who were invited to the show. Both of them had voted for obama, and when asked whether race had something to do with that they denied that one a bit too vigorously to be believable.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 13:11:41 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>Being a litigator isn't the same thing as being a constitutional law professor.
>Being an expert on Constitutional Law is a requirement I would like for every president.
>The "halls of academia" are not a hiding place. They are a place where the brightest minds in this country are constantly challenging each other to do better. And Obama put his knowledge to use in the 'real' world as well...
>Obama was elected editor of the Harvard Law Review, directed multiple foundations and organizations with focuses on community development, poverty and civil rights, was a member of a civil rights-focused law firm, was on the State Legislature, taught constitutional law, and is a US senator.
>I am glad to have a president with such a resume.
>
His resume for running a country is not even as good as Dubya's was.
To put it bluntly, he has never been in charge of anything, his own boss said he wasn't a very good community organizer, whatever the fuck that is, and as a state legislator he voted "present" 130 times, presumably because it was too tough or too politically risky to actually make a decision.
As a senator he spent about 6 months in his seat before he started his run for president. HE HAS ACTUALLY SPENT MORE TIME CAMPAIGNING FOR PREZ THAN HE SPENT AS A SENATOR FROM ILLINOIS.

As I said before, say what you want about Sarah Palin, but she certainly has a resume that shows more capability to govern than Obama's.

And the "halls of academia" are most certainly a hiding place for lots and lots of people.
The brightest minds in the country are out in the world actually doing things.

There is a certain amount of honor in teaching to be sure, but those who spend their lives as professors do not have a handle on what goes on in the real world.
Of course this has nothing to do with the argument at hand, since Obama has not spent his life as a teacher.

These are just some of the marks against him as I see it.
That being said, I hope he does well for our country but I do not expect it, as I disagree vehemently with most of his social and economic policies and I am sure he has no foreign policies of his own.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 5 13:14:07 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>I just don't get it.

that pretty much sums it up. At this point I'm not sure you ever will.

I've been here what...about 5 years or so? Not one single post from you ever saying anything close to "Well Bush got this one wrong." Time after time the man lied, misrepresented, hoodwinked the public, or acted totally incompetent on critical issues/events. Millions and millions of democrats, independants, libertarians, and even top republicans have seen this from his administration. You, however (at least publicly) are blind to his faults.
Not one peep from you...except for your placing blame on everyone else but him and his cronies.

This is precisely why "you don't get it", because you have never gotten it, and is directly related to why you can't figure out why Obama may be a leader with some substance and intelligence.

sorry for the harshness, hif. But even this liberal wasn't afraid to call out Clinton when I perceived blunders on his part.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 13:16:03 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  beetlebum said:
>I was really moved by Obama's speech; I definitely agree that he is a great orator.
>
>That said, I really do not understand why people think he is qualified. I really don't. I am hopeful that he will do an amazing job, and I am excited that America has voted a minority into office because that really means we have made progress over these past fifty years, but I am wary of where our country will be in four years.
>
>Obama being a Constitutional Law professor is great (and I am hoping that experience signals a discerning and critical mind!), but would not be first on my list of Presidential qualifications. I would sooner love to have a President be a Professor of international relations, comparative government, economics, institutions and policy, or even international law-- expertise that the Judicial Branch of our government is not expressly designated to provide.
>
>I don't think the liberal media was hard enough on him or Biden. I don't understand why Palin was raked over the coals for the brother-in-law debacle, while Obama's support for one of the most corrupt political machines in America went mostly unnoticed. (They both should have been raked over the coals, if we are going to have coal-raking.) I also do not understand why the media did not go nuts over his shady past, his far-far-left associations, and his college years, when Bush's college years and time in the National Guard were both harshly examined.
>
>I'm not saying that these discoveries would have prevented him from becoming Pres, or even that they should have, but I am definitely saddened by the fact that people are satisfied with the mainstream media's coverage of both candidates in this election. I know McCain spun the facts, but Obama did not even bother to spin-- he just kept his mouth shut and (seemingly) asked others to do the same(?) about his past. To be clear, I would care less if he had done drugs or participated in some far-left protests. I am more worried that he made some alliances with some radicals, alliances that helped behind the scenes to propel him to national prominence. Hopefully I am way off base, but I still think it is naive for anyone to think that he is the 'breath of fresh air' that Washington needs. He plays the game as well as anyone.
>
>I also worry about Obama's consistent voting with Democrats and that his voting record (voting with Dems 96% of the time) demonstrates an overall lack of fiscal conservatism. (I am not saying that all of the bills he voted for were fiscally irresponsible; I am just asserting that he definitely leans towards spending and sticks with the party line. What I wouldn't give for an old-school, pre-1970 democrat).
>
>Also, I agree with Christophe. People are expecting way too much of the man (without, I think, knowing *exactly* what they expect) and should be incredibly worried that they just handled a spend-happy party complete control of two branches of government. Obama has made alot of promises to alot of people. I'll be interested to see how he makes out. At least he does not have to negotiate or seek compromise with the the party that represents the other half of the country, right? Should make things easier on him to do whatever he thinks he needs to do to set things right. I truly hope he does phenomenally well and does right by all Americans. I'm just not making any plans based upon the assumption that he will.
>
You say it so much better than I, and with more tact as well.
Thank you
:-)


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 13:21:49 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>I just don't get it.
>
>that pretty much sums it up. At this point I'm not sure you ever will.
>
>I've been here what...about 5 years or so? Not one single post from you ever saying anything close to "Well Bush got this one wrong." Time after time the man lied, misrepresented, hoodwinked the public, or acted totally incompetent on critical issues/events. Millions and millions of democrats, independants, libertarians, and even top republicans have seen this from his administration. You, however (at least publicly) are blind to his faults.
>Not one peep from you...except for your placing blame on everyone else but him and his cronies.
>
And in your 5yrs here you have never given Bush credit for getting even one single thing right.
That makes you what ? Pretty much the same as me ?

>This is precisely why "you don't get it", because you have never gotten it, and is directly related to why you can't figure out why Obama may be a leader with some substance and intelligence.
>
OK, then tell me why you believe he has what it takes to be a good prez.
What has he done in life to convince you of this ?

>sorry for the harshness, hif. But even this liberal wasn't afraid to call out Clinton when I perceived blunders on his part.
>
You weren't here when Clinton was prez.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 13:26:36 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>Also, let's be realistic here, half of the people who voted for obama now would have voted for him if he'd been a republican just as easily.
>
>No matter how you look at it, race and racism is a huge factor in his election.
>
>
>What bothers me most about that is that people simply don't admit it while it just drips off their face when they say it has nothing to do with race.
>
>Example: last night on a "talkshow" I appreciate there were 2 american black basketballplayers who were invited to the show. Both of them had voted for obama, and when asked whether race had something to do with that they denied that one a bit too vigorously to be believable.
>
I get why black people voted for him, I really do. It doesn't make it right but I get it.
I honestly don't think race had that much to do with it. He got 63 million votes. Not nearly that many blacks here.
I think the incredibly uneven press coverage certainly had more to do with it than race.
What I don't get is why people revere him so, and cry and faint at his speeches as if he were a pop idol a la Elvis or some such.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 5 13:30:21 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  crucify the niggar!

anyone that thinks Obama is our savior will be very disappointed. What a bloody obvious point.

anyone that thinks the old man and the dingbat were a better choice is delusional.

anyone that thinks the direction we were going as a nation for the past 8 years was okay...well, they just aren't thinking.

any other *realistic* options out there for our next president?
No?

didn't think so.





 
beetlebum Posted: Wed Nov 5 15:39:19 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>crucify the niggar!
>
>anyone that thinks Obama is our savior will be very disappointed. What a bloody obvious point.
>
>anyone that thinks the old man and the dingbat were a better choice is delusional.
>
>anyone that thinks the direction we were going as a nation for the past 8 years was okay...well, they just aren't thinking.
>
>any other *realistic* options out there for our next president?
>No?
>
>didn't think so.
>
>

Woah nelly. Hold yer horses! Just because I am critical of Obama does not mean that I voted McCain. (I will never tell. Nader made the ballot in Missouri! Woo hoo!) What is so terrible about pointing out the problems with Obama and the skepticism I have concerning his ability to lead? This is an exaggerated analogy I know, but to make my point: just because I have to choose between my eyeballs being gouged out and having a burning stake shoved up my arse does not mean I have to be happy about either.

I can't wait for the day that my generation wakes up and figures out that it does not have to be Republican or Democrat-- it can be something else.

And I am not trying to imply that anyone on this forum thinks that Obama is their, our, or America's saviour, so I apologize if I came off that way. However, the excitement that I have seen over his win and the elation that people are feeling about the possibilities of the next four years-- well, I don't understand what buttresses their elation other than the belief that Obama will be 'different', an assumption based mostly on rhetoric, not on his voting record or his relationship with lobbyists.





 
~Just Imagine~ Posted: Wed Nov 5 15:51:19 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  :)
Got a big smile on my face while reading this...

You boys... ;)












Way down where hif can't read it:
ps: woehoew for Obama ;)


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 5 16:13:04 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>crucify the niggar!

That's not what I was saying.

>anyone that thinks Obama is our savior will be very disappointed. What a bloody obvious point.

It's one a lot of people over there (and over here) don't seem to get though. I saw a video of a woman claiming obama would renovate her derelict neighbourhood but keep the rent the same. I'm not saying he said that or anything like it, I'm pretty sure he hasn't because I don't think he's stupid enough for something like that, but that's in essence what a substantial amount of people are basing their votes on: they fill in the vagueries with their own desires.

He's a cult figure, people were crying over him getting elected. I'm telling you: if you're crying over a politician who got elected you're pretty fucked up in my world and seriously in need of either a hobby or a cyanide pill.

It's sort of like a religion to some people, and apparantly like in any cult a lot of them ended up connecting their whole identity to him as a person. People who don't see that as something dangerous need to open up a history book.

>anyone that thinks the old man and the dingbat were a better choice is delusional.

I personally have said that I don't think McCain was the right guy for the job either (although I liked the dignity of his final speech, it's a pose he should have taken on earlier).

I just think Obama is a bad choice as well and his electoral clout is, aside from the iron democratic electoral reserve, based on racism, both from pure racism by non-whites and "positive" discrimination from white people (which doesn't make it any less racist or discriminatory), and greed.

In a way he adapted, like many socialists, much of the same types of party marketing that the nazi's did. Keep in mind that, before anybody craps their pants, I'm not calling him Hitler or Stalin, I'm saying his propaganda machine works the same way and to people who look at the world the way I am looking at it it's a sign of the times and things to come that the lessons of the past are being forgotten at pretty rapid rates. The fact that half of the people who read this were probably shocked by the notion of comparing obama to hitler is from my experience mostly based on not knowing how hitler and his party operated aside from being drilled into denouncing it as bad.

I actually ended up re-reading some parts of Eric Hoffer's "the true believer: thoughts on the nature of mass movements" again and shivered at the state of humanity once more.

>anyone that thinks the direction we were going as a nation for the past 8 years was okay...well, they just aren't thinking.

Again, I personally haven't said that was the case.

But here lies yet another point of what really bothers me with elections, both in the US and over here: if one thing doesn't work or is *percieved* as not working (same thing for the masses), everybody jumps on the alternative which suddenly becomes a flawless gem of insight and all critique is shot down by "it's better than what we're having now because this doesn't seem to be working", for most that's adequate justification.

Honestly, just look at the central slogan. "Change".

The whole concept wasn't "pro" something, the essential underlying tones were "anti" pretty much everything more than anything else because "change" was stuck to everything as something which needs to change for the sake of changing it, what that change is doesn't really matter: due to the vagueness of the term everybody who voted for him filled in the blanks to suit their own desires.

In that sense there's no doubt it was a brilliant move, but it's been done before by a lot of people he probably, rightfully so, wouldn't like to be associated with.

I follow US and European campaigns as much as I can, because I can generally understand the languages in which those processes get reported. It's very interesting for example when as an observer you see the same story in different places. For example, Sarkozy got elected in very similar style and manner, the only in this scope meaningful difference being that he made promises to a different target group, the way obama kissed the ass of the mid-lower middle class and lower, because that's where the votes are, Sarkozy just called on the low- and upper-mid class. He's also where I base my predictions on: overwhelming popularity at first, people thinking he was the 2nd coming of christ, and then reality hits and the whole thing bogs down and the same people who voted for him earlier are now the same ones that are doing the crucifying. There's a very similar situation going on in my own domestic political situation as well, again along the pretty much the exact same lines.

But sadly, people don't seem to think their stuff through, and for every thought-through vote there's hundreds who just vote for the guy who makes the most promises and most openly says he'll discriminate towards other groups in favour of the one he's fishing in, just like the nazi's did and the old soicalists before them.

People can say a lot about liberalism (true liberalism, not the socialist version of the US), but it hasn't ever resorted to that type of tactics, at least with people who vote for an actual liberal (in the US the libertarians maybe? They should be in any case but I don't know too much about them) you know they do it out of ethical belief instead of racism, greed or discrimination, positive or negative.

>any other *realistic* options out there for our next president?
>No?
>
>didn't think so.

When choosing between cholera and the plague either one will end up screwing you over.



Time will tell, but what it says is mostly an echo to those who listen carefully.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 5 16:20:10 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Another thing I forgot to add:

Over here we have a saying, which loosely translated is this:


When the fox is preaching the passion the farmer has to watch his chickens.


Keep that in mind and then look at who is cheering around the world because obama got elected.


 
FN Posted: Wed Nov 5 16:35:36 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Just one more post to add to this monologue for now because I think it's another essential and to me telling thing.



Anybody who's been here for a while probably knows that I personally put a lot of importance in political ideology and strongly identify with some part of the spectrum and detest most others with a vengeance. I'd go as far as saying I'm passionate about what I believe in as a Weltanschauung, probably more so than anybody I personally know.

However, I can not for the life of me imagine ever loudly cheering or crying because "my" party gets elected. To me it's almost as absurd as people getting excited over "their" team winning a sports match.


That's the impression I was getting though when looking at the images from the US. It might as well have been a football game or any other sporting event instead of an election. People yelling "we won" etc, children interviewed in schools spewing out oneliners about how happy they were that obama got elected and how he'll make the US a better country. I'm talking 10 year olds.

Commercials, immense amounts of gadgets and gimmicks, marketing over matter and to top it off people who seem to think about elections as a form of sport in which you pick a team and have it play against another purely for entertainment value and then add meanlingless hype and joy to it.

It just boggles the mind that politics has not more of a "serieux" left, and I dread it crossing the ocean (bound to happen, the first signs are arriving over here as well).


To me, like Meg said, what would be truly a sign of change and democracy and really a historic happening, much more than skin color, would be the election of somebody who isn't either a republican or a democrat.


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 5 17:49:32 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  My post was a generalized reaction to several posts here, and not directly pointed at you, meg. I happen to disagree with some of your thoughts, but as usual you stated them very elequantly and thoughtfully.

Btw...I watched an interview with Nader today and was very disappointed with a man I once held in high esteem. He reminds me of Paul..some very brilliant ideas mixed in with too much craziness to ever take seriously. Personally I wished he'd stayed a consumer advocate and stayed out of seeking political office...but he doesn't listen to me. : )

Do you realize, Christophe how many millions of people voted for Obama (black, white, asian and hispanic) that would never dream of drooling and screaming and fawning at a rally? So you see what is a very small percentage of nutcases going ga-ga over the guy and jump to the conclusion that all of us treat him like a rock star here.
Do we appreciate his speaking ability? Does he give us some hope that things MIGHT get better for us in the future? Does he inspire so many of us to become better people?
Yes.
I won't apologize for that. After so many years of wanting to throw up in our mouths dealing with Bush, some of us have some excess relief to let out.

I have my feet solidly on the ground concerning what the guy can do. If he thought running this campaign was difficult wait till he's sitting behind the presidents desk. There will be blunders and mis-steps and things I'm sure that won't go as hoped. Along with that I'm sure there will be things that are corrected that help put us back on the right track.
Only a guess, but my gut tells me he'll turn out to be moderate-left center, than extremely far left boogie man so many people fear.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 18:06:17 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>My post was a generalized reaction to several posts here, and not directly pointed at you, meg. I happen to disagree with some of your thoughts, but as usual you stated them very elequantly and thoughtfully.
>
I took exception to your "string the nigger up" line as a reaction to any posts here. I have seen nothing here to indicate any kind of racism towards Obama.

>
>Do you realize, Christophe how many millions of people voted for Obama (black, white, asian and hispanic) that would never dream of drooling and screaming and fawning at a rally? So you see what is a very small percentage of nutcases going ga-ga over the guy and jump to the conclusion that all of us treat him like a rock star here.
>
Seems to me that the liberal media has created the rock star phenomena. How else would you explain it ?
Certainly not the greek columns at his acceptance speech or his event in Germany ?
>Do we appreciate his speaking ability? Does he give us some hope that things MIGHT get better for us in the future? Does he inspire so many of us to become better people?
>Yes.
>I won't apologize for that. After so many years of wanting to throw up in our mouths dealing with Bush, some of us have some excess relief to let out.
>
>I have my feet solidly on the ground concerning what the guy can do. If he thought running this campaign was difficult wait till he's sitting behind the presidents desk. There will be blunders and mis-steps and things I'm sure that won't go as hoped. Along with that I'm sure there will be things that are corrected that help put us back on the right track.
>
Yes and the blunders and mi-steps will be poo-pooed by the liberal media and he will be given a pass, unlike Bush who was likened to Hitler and Stalin and called stupid and ignorant.

>Only a guess, but my gut tells me he'll turn out to be moderate-left center, than extremely far left boogie man so many people fear.
>
Why does your gut tell you that ?
His record certainly doesn't show him to be center left and I'm sure the people that got him there won't stand for it.

And I'm still waiting for someone, anyone to tell me why they think he can do this job ?


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 5 20:09:38 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>I took exception to your "string the nigger up" line as a reaction to any posts here. I have seen nothing here to indicate any kind of racism towards Obama.

It was hyperbole, hif. not to be taken literally. And if you haven't seen any kind of implied racism here then you're not reading carefully, and I'll leave it at that.

>Seems to me that the liberal media has created the rock star phenomena. How else would you explain it ?

Media plays things up for sure, on both sides. I do get tired of the term "liberal media" though. It's as if every media outlet is automatically liberal here, especially if they ever happen to critisize a republican.

>Yes and the blunders and mi-steps will be poo-pooed by the liberal media and he will be given a pass, unlike Bush who was likened to Hitler and Stalin and called stupid and ignorant.

tell you what, hif. If Obama gets us into an ill-conceived and needless war that kills several thousand of our soldiers, spends billions of dollars doing it, lies about the reasons going, fucks up the strategy while we're there fighting, and fucks up the response to a national disaster (among many other things) then I'll be right there with you calling for his head.

>Why does your gut tell you that ?
>His record certainly doesn't show him to be center left and I'm sure the people that got him there won't stand for it.

because he's intelligent, and knows he must work with the other side to get anything accomplished, even having a majority now, and going far left wing isn't going to work. Like I said, it's a gut feeling.

>And I'm still waiting for someone, anyone to tell me why they think he can do this job ?

why? you'd quickly denounce every single point anyone made about why they felt that way. Someone else may want to take you up on the challange. I've got better things to do with my time.


 
ifihadahif Posted: Wed Nov 5 21:01:43 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  addi said:
>ifihadahif said:
>>I took exception to your "string the nigger up" line as a reaction to any posts here. I have seen nothing here to indicate any kind of racism towards Obama.
>
>It was hyperbole, hif. not to be taken literally. And if you haven't seen any kind of implied racism here then you're not reading carefully, and I'll leave it at that.
>
I think you're reading things into it that just aren't there.

>>Seems to me that the liberal media has created the rock star phenomena. How else would you explain it ?
>
>Media plays things up for sure, on both sides. I do get tired of the term "liberal media" though. It's as if every media outlet is automatically liberal here, especially if they ever happen to critisize a republican.
>
Not every media outlet, just ABC, NBC, CBS, AP, Reuters . . .

>>Yes and the blunders and mi-steps will be poo-pooed by the liberal media and he will be given a pass, unlike Bush who was likened to Hitler and Stalin and called stupid and ignorant.
>
>tell you what, hif. If Obama gets us into an ill-conceived and needless war that kills several thousand of our soldiers, spends billions of dollars doing it, lies about the reasons going, fucks up the strategy while we're there fighting, and fucks up the response to a national disaster (among many other things) then I'll be right there with you calling for his head.
>
What about if he disgraces his office, gets impeached, lies to a grand jury, and gets disbarred ?
Does the media still get to treat him like a rock star ?

>>Why does your gut tell you that ?
>>His record certainly doesn't show him to be center left and I'm sure the people that got him there won't stand for it.
>
>because he's intelligent, and knows he must work with the other side to get anything accomplished, even having a majority now, and going far left wing isn't going to work. Like I said, it's a gut feeling.
>
Really ? He's never once in his life reached across the aisle. And being far left is what got him where he is.
I hope you're right, but I doubt it.

>>And I'm still waiting for someone, anyone to tell me why they think he can do this job ?
>
>why? you'd quickly denounce every single point anyone made about why they felt that way. Someone else may want to take you up on the challange. I've got better things to do with my time.
>
It's because you'd have nothing to point to except charisma and blind faith. He has no record to point to, no accomplishments to point out.
If you said you just believe in him because you just believe, I would accept that.
Rest assured that I'm under no illusions that you really give a damn
what I might accept in a conversation about politics.
:-)


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 5 22:41:54 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  You are correct. I don't give a damn about about what you accept as factual in politics, hif...primarily due to the fact that anything I would say wouldn't be accepted by you. It never has.
However I do give a damn about you as a person.
So sue me! : )


I'd continue this lovely discussion, but alas, I was up at 5am and I'm off to dreamland now (hopefully to have erotic dreams about Palin), and then off on a road trip till Sunday.
Take care hif and all my many dear dear friends here until me meet once more to demean each other again.

*And Christophe don't forget to floss nightly. All aspiring capitalists do.


 
kurohyou Posted: Thu Nov 6 00:58:06 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:

>I just don't get why people love this guy so much.
>What has he ever done in his life to make you think he can be a good prez ?

People like him because, he seems to have given people something that many not had in the last eight years...

Hope.

This country has problems and the leadership of the last eight years is largely responsible for these problems. People are tired. They are tired of a lot of things, and they are tired of the hopelessness they are feeling.

I think it's sad that words like "hope" and "change" have been turned into punch lines and that some people have relegated Obama's message and success to nothing more but hyped media sensationalism. Because in my mind, its about time people have some hope, and I don't think anything is wrong with that.

It makes it seem like those who "bought into" this illusion were brainwashed into their decision; that the ideals of hope in change for a better world are the lopsided illusions of those who are easily swayed by the words of a charismatic speaker.

Are we then to believe that more than half of this county is that gullible? Are we to believe that more than half of this country (63,888,138 people according to CNN.com) is so easily convinced that, a man who "has accomplished nothing in his life to suggest he can be president." can convince them to vote for him after a couple speeches and a lot of media hype?

Is this what we are to believe? Are we to believe that icons such as Colin Powell is under the same illusion as those who are seen as so easily swayed by words of hope and change? Oh but we can simply chalk Colin Powell up to the fact that he and Obama share a skin tone.

Is that how this is rationalized? Is that how it will be written into history. Relegate the man and his vision, his ideals, his struggles and his success to the fact that he bore a darker skin pigment than his opponent, and therefore go the vote of those with similar pigment.

If that is the truth then America has bigger problems than who is running the country. If that's the case then the foundation of all we hold dear is in jeopardy. If that is true then the idealism, the sacrifice and the courage of all those before us has lead us nowhere.

For what it's worth...


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Nov 6 02:57:09 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
>ifihadahif said:
>
>>I just don't get why people love this guy so much.
>>What has he ever done in his life to make you think he can be a good prez ?
>
>People like him because, he seems to have given people something that many not had in the last eight years...
>
>Hope.
>
>This country has problems and the leadership of the last eight years is largely responsible for these problems. People are tired. They are tired of a lot of things, and they are tired of the hopelessness they are feeling.
>
>I think it's sad that words like "hope" and "change" have been turned into punch lines and that some people have relegated Obama's message and success to nothing more but hyped media sensationalism. Because in my mind, its about time people have some hope, and I don't think anything is wrong with that.
>
>It makes it seem like those who "bought into" this illusion were brainwashed into their decision; that the ideals of hope in change for a better world are the lopsided illusions of those who are easily swayed by the words of a charismatic speaker.
>
>Are we then to believe that more than half of this county is that gullible? Are we to believe that more than half of this country (63,888,138 people according to CNN.com) is so easily convinced that, a man who "has accomplished nothing in his life to suggest he can be president." can convince them to vote for him after a couple speeches and a lot of media hype?
>
>Is this what we are to believe? Are we to believe that icons such as Colin Powell is under the same illusion as those who are seen as so easily swayed by words of hope and change? Oh but we can simply chalk Colin Powell up to the fact that he and Obama share a skin tone.
>
>Is that how this is rationalized? Is that how it will be written into history. Relegate the man and his vision, his ideals, his struggles and his success to the fact that he bore a darker skin pigment than his opponent, and therefore go the vote of those with similar pigment.
>
>If that is the truth then America has bigger problems than who is running the country. If that's the case then the foundation of all we hold dear is in jeopardy. If that is true then the idealism, the sacrifice and the courage of all those before us has lead us nowhere.
>
>For what it's worth...
>
That's what I don't get.
WHY do you believe in him ?
What makes you think he can follow through on his promises of hope and change ?



 
libra Posted: Thu Nov 6 12:09:57 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I agree with kurohyou and his statement made me think of something that I wanted to add...

This is the first time in my life that I have had reason to be hopeful about the state of the country I live in. Bush was elected while I was in high school, and since then, everything that the majority of my generation has learned in school, or seen happen around us, has been interpreted through a lens that forced us to give up hope, to not be confident in our leaders.

I think that no matter what party you're in, or what your opinions are, the fact that many many young people like myself are finding themselves excited about and hopeful about the country they live in for the first time in their lives, is a really special thing. And it is something not to be discounted. We are all at a time in our lives where we are deciding how we want to live and what we want to do with ourselves. The energy and excitement generated by Obama's message, his presence, his persona, and the fact that he was elected, change our interpretation of the world. They change our conception of what is possible and what can be done.



 
FN Posted: Thu Nov 6 12:31:35 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  I don't get what the melodrama is all about with the "hope" thing.

No offence, but seriosuly, hope means diddly squat and ofcourse people will be excited if you promise them money taken away from the people they envy because they have more than them.



Also, to get back on the racism thing, as I've said many times before: I'm a cultural racist in the sense that I believe that western civilization is superior to the others, for various reasons. That has nothing to do with skin colour.

But skin colour has undoubtedly been an enormous push for obama, so racism is an issue but people don't label it as such because it's "positive" discrimination by black people towards eachother, but to "positively" discriminate against one group you have to "negatively" discriminate against another.

You hear about "the pride of the black community" and what not, how is that not a racist thing, having "black" in there makes it racist by definition.


So if you're honest, how come almost all black people voted for obama if there's no racism involved from their side? How come the political ideologies aren't more or less split evenly among the black comunity to the same degree as they are in the white community for example?

Is it racist to point out racism?


 
FN Posted: Thu Nov 6 12:36:02 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
>Are we then to believe that more than half of this county is that gullible?

What would give you reason not to? (not just the US but pretty much any country)

"The people" is for 90% composed of idiots and *are* that gullible, history has a nice range of occassions to choose from and I think this is another.

You only have to go 4 years back or just take a look at the governator.


 
FN Posted: Thu Nov 6 12:37:49 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>The energy and excitement generated by Obama's message, his presence, his persona, and the fact that he was elected, change our interpretation of the world. They change our conception of what is possible and what can be done.

Viva la revoluçion!

Just be careful you don't end up as a third world country like all the others.


 
FN Posted: Thu Nov 6 12:53:37 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  http://www.businesssheet.com/2008/11/states-with-80-of-america-s-foreclosures-voted-for-obama


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Nov 6 13:51:21 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  libra said:
>I agree with kurohyou and his statement made me think of something that I wanted to add...
>
>This is the first time in my life that I have had reason to be hopeful about the state of the country I live in. Bush was elected while I was in high school, and since then, everything that the majority of my generation has learned in school, or seen happen around us, has been interpreted through a lens that forced us to give up hope, to not be confident in our leaders.
>
>I think that no matter what party you're in, or what your opinions are, the fact that many many young people like myself are finding themselves excited about and hopeful about the country they live in for the first time in their lives, is a really special thing. And it is something not to be discounted. We are all at a time in our lives where we are deciding how we want to live and what we want to do with ourselves. The energy and excitement generated by Obama's message, his presence, his persona, and the fact that he was elected, change our interpretation of the world. They change our conception of what is possible and what can be done.
>
Cult of personality, nothing more ...


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Nov 6 13:57:25 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Does anyone honestly think Obama can help with the situation in the middle east ?


 
misszero Posted: Thu Nov 6 20:38:21 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i know i live a whole hemisphere away from the states, but i have a couple of things...

firstly, where exactly is the border between this much mentioned 'real world' and whatever world academics are living in? i'm pretty sure that even someone classed as an academic still has bills to pay, infrastructure to utilise, health to maintain, children to raise etc... is the 'real world' being part of the working class, doing manual labour and struggling to pay bills? i thought everyone lived in the 'real world'? or at least, everyone who's not a fictional character.

secondly, if i were a voting american, i think i'd be a little insulted that people would assume that i'd vote based on things like skin colour or gender. I'm not saying that there's nobody out there who didn't, i'm just saying that i've seen a lot of quotes from americans in the australian media that say things like:
"I had friends saying 'How could you desert Hillary? You're a woman.' But for me it wasn't about the sex of the person. It was about their ideology and their ability to lead the country." (direct quote from Angela Myers, an international student from the US studying at the University of Newcastle, as printed in the Newcastle Herald november 6th.) Assuming people who share a charectoristic with someone would vote for them purely based on that is ludicrous. I wouldn't have elected Hitler just because i too had a silly moustache.

in the immortal words of kurohyou, 'for what it's worth...'


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Nov 6 21:13:53 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  misszero said:
>i know i live a whole hemisphere away from the states, but i have a couple of things...
>
>firstly, where exactly is the border between this much mentioned 'real world' and whatever world academics are living in? i'm pretty sure that even someone classed as an academic still has bills to pay, infrastructure to utilise, health to maintain, children to raise etc... is the 'real world' being part of the working class, doing manual labour and struggling to pay bills? i thought everyone lived in the 'real world'? or at least, everyone who's not a fictional character.
>
I was speaking of the real world concerning whatever subject the professor might be teaching.
For instance if an art professor could produce real art, he or she would have a recording contract or getting commissions to paint or sculpt or an engineering professor would be working at Microsoft or Daimler-Benz if he or she were a good enough engineer.
Of course professors have bills to pay and such, mostly that's why they would be working in their chosen field rather than teaching their chosen field.
Most big corporations pay much better than most universities.

>secondly, if i were a voting american, i think i'd be a little insulted that people would assume that i'd vote based on things like skin colour or gender. I'm not saying that there's nobody out there who didn't, i'm just saying that i've seen a lot of quotes from americans in the australian media that say things like:
>"I had friends saying 'How could you desert Hillary? You're a woman.' But for me it wasn't about the sex of the person. It was about their ideology and their ability to lead the country." (direct quote from Angela Myers, an international student from the US studying at the University of Newcastle, as printed in the Newcastle Herald november 6th.) Assuming people who share a charectoristic with someone would vote for them purely based on that is ludicrous. I wouldn't have elected Hitler just because i too had a silly moustache.
>
Do you not think that if an aborigine were to run a successful campaign for prime minister of Oz that he would get 96 percent of the Aborigine vote ?



 
DanSRose Posted: Thu Nov 6 21:19:58 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Because he has an actual Frickin' PLAN

Why I voted for him? Not because of some elven-fairy-leprechaun-gnome-unicorn idea of "hope", but actual Hope, because what he wants to do is a great set of ideas. He presented them with numbers (numbers as in 'cash-money'), with tactics and strategy, implications for the future, all that kind of thing. Iran, Iraq, Israel-Palestine, Russia, China, education, higher education, special education, the appallingly underfunded V.A. (yeah! republicans are super-duper for the military!), Social Security, energy, alternative energy, women (in terms of health, choice, childcare and sick-leave for parents, and equal pay for equal work), and now I'm bored making this list.

There-
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
You cannot whine "waa waa waa what can he do what is hope waa waa he's just an uncle tom waa waa he won't do nothing cause he's black and he'll just do black things". Whatever.

Also he did reach across the aisle all the time in the State House and also in the Senate.



 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Nov 6 23:16:16 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  DanSRose said:
>Because he has an actual Frickin' PLAN
>
>Why I voted for him? Not because of some elven-fairy-leprechaun-gnome-unicorn idea of "hope", but actual Hope, because what he wants to do is a great set of ideas. He presented them with numbers (numbers as in 'cash-money'), with tactics and strategy, implications for the future, all that kind of thing. Iran, Iraq, Israel-Palestine, Russia, China, education, higher education, special education, the appallingly underfunded V.A. (yeah! republicans are super-duper for the military!), Social Security, energy, alternative energy, women (in terms of health, choice, childcare and sick-leave for parents, and equal pay for equal work), and now I'm bored making this list.
>
Yeah, I've seen his numbers.
Let's give 95 percent of the people a tax break.
How does that work when 35 percent of them don't pay any taxes ?
Has he said where he will make budget cuts to help pay for his new programs ?
I don't think so.

>There-
>http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
>
How nice, taken right from the man's own website, I'm sure it's not partisan or spin eh ?
>You cannot whine "waa waa waa what can he do what is hope waa waa he's just an uncle tom waa waa he won't do nothing cause he's black and he'll just do black things". Whatever.
>
Who in the hell ever said anything about uncle tom or "black things" ?
A little high strung are we ?
>Also he did reach across the aisle all the time in the State House and also in the Senate.
>
All the time ? I think not.
http://blog.psaonline.org/2008/08/28/mccain-or-obama-who-will-best-reach-across-the-aisle/


 
ifihadahif Posted: Thu Nov 6 23:19:53 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>DanSRose said:
Iran, Iraq, Israel-Palestine
>
How effective do you think he can be in the Middle East with a Jewish chief of staff ?
I have no problem with it myself, I see it as a giant FUCK YOU to Palestine myself and I see that as a good thing.


 
misszero Posted: Fri Nov 7 00:02:23 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  i typed up a huge response to this, with statistics, and opinions, and quotes from reputable sources and all kinda shit. but then i thought, really, why bother? the reason i don't usually get involved in political threads on GT is because at times i struggle to articulate my opinions about issues. and i hate it when after i've laid out my reasons, people still say 'yeah, but why?' *shrugs*

what i do know though, is that the american election effects more than just the states. the joy i felt when John Howard lost the election was only slightly more intense than the joy i felt when i heard Obama had been elected. my housemate has been dragging me out of bed at all hours of the day and night to watch debates between american candidates on australian tv, and on the web, so its not like i had absolutely no idea what kind of ideologies were coming from each side. to have Rudd and Obama leading countries makes me hopeful. and if that makes me an idiot, then hey, whatever. i know enough not to expect instantaneous change, but, as corny as it is, the journey of a thousand miles, starts with a single step. for me, being in politics isn't necessarily about accomplishing everything you promised within the term you serve, but implementing programs whereby change continues, for the better, even after yuou're out of the office.

but hey, what do i know?


 
kurohyou Posted: Fri Nov 7 00:20:40 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  >ifihadahif said:
>
That's what I don't get.
WHY do you believe in him ?
What makes you think he can follow through on his promises of hope and change ?



To me, Obama is as representative of America as any president I have seen in my lifetime. If we are to present ourselves as the land of the free and the home of opportunity, then what is more American than this country electing a man who symbolizes those ideals?

In my district up here there was a Muslim-American man running for Senate, Ali Hasan. He was a republican, and some of what he has promised in his campaign I didn’t believe in, nor did I believe he could accomplish. He lost. But I voted for him. Why?

For me, to see this country finally begin to make the move away from the “white patriarch in charge,” is inspiring. This move feels uncomfortable in a way, its different and it’s scary. But it’s a necessary shift and it’s an inclusionary shift. It’s a shift which is more representative of what America is; a beautifully diverse nation of different cultures, different peoples, different beliefs and different ideals. And this is not just related to Obama. Jared Polis became the first openly gay individual elected to the house, The Colorado Senate is going to be run by two African Americans and numerous other examples nationwide show this same shift. It feels like our government is becoming more representative of the people.

It feels like finally, maybe, just maybe, after all of the struggles of the generations before us, the struggles of the ones who died, the blood we’ve shed, the tear we’ve cried and the wars we’ve waged, the protests we’ve staged; maybe we are getting closer to that point where Martin Luther King once dreamed of. That point where people can begin to look at people in a more equal manner. A world where the color of our skin, our sexual orientation, the shape of our eyes, the descent of our parents and the church we attend is becoming secondary to the fact that regardless of all that, we all bear a shared experience in this world. To me, this is an answer to the question of how far we’ve come.

As far as the politics of this situation, politics are politics. Obama, like any other president before him, will likely not follow through on some of his promises. But I think he stands the same chances of success or failure as anyone else would who is stepping in as leader of this country. I don’t think McCain, had he been elected, or Ron Paul, or Hilary Clinton, would have been able to follow through with everything they said they would do. That is the nature of politics, it’s a game. But Obama changed the rules of that game on everyone in this election. Hilary faced it in the Democratic race and McCain in the Presidential. Obama spoke to the American people in a way that inspired them. Gave them hope and, regardless of how skeptical they were, made them want to believe.

Of the people whom I know who supported Obama, many of them have made that very comment. “He makes me want to believe.” One person said to me. I think a lot of people are cautiously optimistic about Obama. The reality is that he has just inherited a mess. A nation in economic turmoil, international crisis’ all over, two wars, and a damaged international reputation to rebuild. I think very few believe he will do everything he says he will do. There are logistics that make some of it impossible.

But again, for me, it goes back to hope and wanting to believe. Hope and belief are powerful. I think the record voter turnout this year speaks to that. Hope and belief can motivate people. Motivate them to move, to become involved, and motivate them into action. The words of his acceptance speech carry on them this motivation. The belief that the world we live in can be better than it is. The Belief that together, not as individuals, but united, like the vision and dreams of those who built this nation, we can make something better.

Obama’s message is my message. I’m not naïve enough to believe he’ll fulfill all his promises. I’m not naïve enough to believe that suddenly everything is going to be okay. But I do know that hope is powerful, giving hope to people is powerful, and its my hope, that its contagious, and those who may not have the hope now that he’ll be able to do the job, will at still lend their hands to the task ahead.

For what it’s worth…





 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Nov 7 06:37:56 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
>>ifihadahif said:
>>
>That's what I don't get.
>WHY do you believe in him ?
>What makes you think he can follow through on his promises of hope and change ?
>
>
>
>To me, Obama is as representative of America as any president I have seen in my lifetime. If we are to present ourselves as the land of the free and the home of opportunity, then what is more American than this country electing a man who symbolizes those ideals?
>
Why does he symbolize those ideals more than McCain, a man who can point to an entire life of honorable public service, or for that matter, you and I ?

>In my district up here there was a Muslim-American man running for Senate, Ali Hasan. He was a republican, and some of what he has promised in his campaign I didn’t believe in, nor did I believe he could accomplish. He lost. But I voted for him. Why?
>
So skin color is an issue for you ?

>For me, to see this country finally begin to make the move away from the “white patriarch in charge,” is inspiring. This move feels uncomfortable in a way, its different and it’s scary. But it’s a necessary shift and it’s an inclusionary shift. It’s a shift which is more representative of what America is; a beautifully diverse nation of different cultures, different peoples, different beliefs and different ideals. And this is not just related to Obama. Jared Polis became the first openly gay individual elected to the house, The Colorado Senate is going to be run by two African Americans and numerous other examples nationwide show this same shift. It feels like our government is becoming more representative of the people.
>
Our government has been moving in this direction for a long time. Both Dubya's and Clinton's administrations were inclusive of minorities. Although I must admit that it seems that if a minority politician is conservative, they don't seem to count. Colin Powell was labeled an Uncle Tom until he endorsed Obama and all of a sudden he was a big hero. Condi Rice was labeled a stupid incompetent.

>It feels like finally, maybe, just maybe, after all of the struggles of the generations before us, the struggles of the ones who died, the blood we’ve shed, the tear we’ve cried and the wars we’ve waged, the protests we’ve staged; maybe we are getting closer to that point where Martin Luther King once dreamed of. That point where people can begin to look at people in a more equal manner. A world where the color of our skin, our sexual orientation, the shape of our eyes, the descent of our parents and the church we attend is becoming secondary to the fact that regardless of all that, we all bear a shared experience in this world. To me, this is an answer to the question of how far we’ve come.
>
I think it shows that for most whites, skin color doesn't matter. I think it also shows that among blacks, it is much the opposite.

>As far as the politics of this situation, politics are politics. Obama, like any other president before him, will likely not follow through on some of his promises. But I think he stands the same chances of success or failure as anyone else would who is stepping in as leader of this country. I don’t think McCain, had he been elected, or Ron Paul, or Hilary Clinton, would have been able to follow through with everything they said they would do. That is the nature of politics, it’s a game. But Obama changed the rules of that game on everyone in this election. Hilary faced it in the Democratic race and McCain in the Presidential. Obama spoke to the American people in a way that inspired them. Gave them hope and, regardless of how skeptical they were, made them want to believe.
>
And the difference here is that when he doesn't follow thru on something, he will be given a pass. A conservative would have immediately been branded a liar by the press.

>Of the people whom I know who supported Obama, many of them have made that very comment. “He makes me want to believe.” One person said to me. I think a lot of people are cautiously optimistic about Obama. The reality is that he has just inherited a mess. A nation in economic turmoil, international crisis’ all over, two wars, and a damaged international reputation to rebuild.
>
How come no one remembers that Dubya inherited an economy already in recession and only 7months into his presidency, he got 9/11 ?
I would also submit that our internation reputation was already in the toilet before he ever took office.
Evidence of this is how many said we had it coming or we deserved what we got on 9/11.
Obama's inherited problems are not unique.
>
I think very few believe he will do everything he says he will do. There are logistics that make some of it impossible.
>
Then he shouldn't made those promised if they are logistically impossible.
Not a good way to start.

>But again, for me, it goes back to hope and wanting to believe. Hope and belief are powerful. I think the record voter turnout this year speaks to that. Hope and belief can motivate people. Motivate them to move, to become involved, and motivate them into action. The words of his acceptance speech carry on them this motivation. The belief that the world we live in can be better than it is. The Belief that together, not as individuals, but united, like the vision and dreams of those who built this nation, we can make something better.
>
We can also make it worse, a lot worse.
>Obama’s message is my message. I’m not naïve enough to believe he’ll fulfill all his promises. I’m not naïve enough to believe that suddenly everything is going to be okay. But I do know that hope is powerful, giving hope to people is powerful, and its my hope, that its contagious, and those who may not have the hope now that he’ll be able to do the job, will at still lend their hands to the task ahead.
>
>For what it’s worth…
>
The man got 65 million votes, that cannot be denied, but from where I stand it looks like a cult of personality. Giving people hope and belief are nice, but that doesn't feed us or find work for us.
As a white conservative, I certainly don't feel included in his dream.
He is not going to unite us, he is only going to unite his base. He will in all likelyhood divide us even more if he governs from the far left as is his voting history.
His pick of Rahm Emmanuel is not a good start for those seeking bipartisanship. He is one the most polarizing figures in congress.
But it is a good pick for those wanting to stick it to radical muslims;)

BTW I thought Barney Frank was the first openly gay member of congress.

For me and nearly 60 million who voted against him, it's not about skin color, it's about ideals. It's about socialism and big government against capitalism and limited government.




 
FN Posted: Fri Nov 7 07:01:26 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
>In my district up here there was a Muslim-American man running for Senate, Ali Hasan. He was a republican, and some of what he has promised in his campaign I didn’t believe in, nor did I believe he could accomplish. He lost. But I voted for him. Why?
>
>For me, to see this country finally begin to make the move away from the “white patriarch in charge,” is inspiring. This move feels uncomfortable in a way, its different and it’s scary. But it’s a necessary shift and it’s an inclusionary shift. It’s a shift which is more representative of what America is; a beautifully diverse nation of different cultures, different peoples, different beliefs and different ideals.

That's racist and discriminatory right there.

It's also the point I'm trying to make.



I think most of us agree here that you have a good head on your shoulders; what makes you think that if somebody like you voted for that guy for those reasons 10 times as many others didn't do the same in the case of obama.


 
FN Posted: Fri Nov 7 07:12:25 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
>Obama spoke to the American people in a way that inspired them. Gave them hope and, regardless of how skeptical they were, made them want to believe.
>Of the people whom I know who supported Obama, many of them have made that very comment. “He makes me want to believe.”

So did the x-files.

>The Belief that together, not as individuals, but united, like the vision and dreams of those who built this nation, we can make something better.

I doubt that good old collectivism will save us all.

>But I do know that hope is powerful, giving hope to people is powerful, and its my hope, that its contagious, and those who may not have the hope now that he’ll be able to do the job, will at still lend their hands to the task ahead.

Revolution is a matter of violence, not of democracy. That's why his policies won't be "revolutionary"; all the hype and "hope!" and "fuck yeah!" and "woohoo!" "obama wooo!" will fade just as quickly as it peaked, because that's how fickle the masses are. You might not expect miracles, in fact I believe that you and others here don't, but I know that a lot, if not most, of those who did vote for obama do. People who aren't willing to see that don't have any right calling right wingers biased or pointing fingers at "spin".

That's reality, basic human nature and boundless ignorance, spite and greed. The message of robbing from the rich to give it to the poor isn't a message of hope, it's a message of state-enforced burglary.



Also, let me predict you this in advance:

If the economy stays the same in 4 years from now, he won't be to blame according to his flock of sheep that he'll be leading through the valley of death.

But economies go in cycles, some shorter, some longer, and there's a real possibility that in 4 years from now the cycle will just be turning upwards again, as part of a normal economic flow. He'll claim that natural phenomenon as his own, and so will people who don't know a a rat's ass worth about economy, and socialism will putrify the US even more.


 
kurohyou Posted: Fri Nov 7 16:13:12 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Christophe said:
>
>That's racist and discriminatory right there.
>
>It's also the point I'm trying to make.
>
>
>
>I think most of us agree here that you have a good head on your shoulders; what makes you think that if somebody like you voted for that guy for those reasons 10 times as many others didn't do the same in the case of Obama.

I'm sure for some that may have been a factor. Dan said he voted for him, not because of the dancing trees and unicorns, but because Obama has a Plan. To some having a plan is important. To some, having experience is important. To some, the candidate’s race is important. Different people have different Criterion for why they did or did not vote for the man. That's America. It's how we roll.

My reasons relied less on Obama's race, and more on his message. His message was a refreshing change from everything I have ever heard to this point in my life. For me, the defining point was when it was announced that Sarah Palin's daughter was pregnant. Obama came right out and said that families were off limits in this election. To me that was the indication that Obama is a man of character. A man who was going to look at the problems for what they are and stay focused. A man who did not appear to be willing to be sucked into the name-calling and other bull which politics is so full of. A man who for the most part ran one of the cleanest campaigns I've witnessed. For me, Character goes a long way.

For me a plan was not as important because I’ve experienced the transitory nature of a plan. My high school English teacher use to say, “The best laid plans of mice and men oft times go awry.” Its no different in politics that it is in life. We can make the greatest plans ever, tell all our friends about them and then have the best laid plans blow up in our face. Name me a single politician who has not failed on a campaign promise, for one reason or another. Point me out a single person, who has ever had every plan they have ironed out work perfectly and turn out as they had hoped it would, or as they told their friends it would. Plans are guidelines. They're transitory. They cannot be permanent because nothing in this world is solid. It's in a state of constant flux, and that is the reality of it. Obama has a plan, okay. It's better than not having a plan. But for me, it doesn't bear as much weight in my decision about whether he can or cannot run this country.

I don't think my reasoning behind voting for Hasan is racist or discriminatory. I believe a minority can perform any job a white man or woman can perform and I believe a woman can do any job a man can.

Saying experiencing that change as being difficult is not racist either. It's realistic. Change is hard, even the change we want to see can be hard to deal with because humans inherently are apprehensive towards change. Especially towards change they don't have experience with. That's not racist. It's human nature. We are apprehensive that which we are uncertain about.

We have seen this country run a certain way for so long, mostly by white men with a scattering of women and minorities. That image is changing now, for the better I think, and some are apprehensive about it. Because in the back peoples minds lies the belief that anyone can do any job. But in reality, it has not been tested on a mass scale like we are seeing now. The proof that this will work is not out there for the masses to see, and I think that can lead to some apprehension.

The problem is, while the United States has been making headway in this area, it still never felt like it was real. It felt like an anomaly. Now, I don't have the time or the attention span to look up stats, and all that, but I will ask this...

If, all things being equal, minorities and women are participating equally in our governmental process by holding leadership roles, why then is it such a big deal when they are elected to office or are given positions of power and authority?

Why does the fact that the Colorado congress is going to be run by two African Americans make news? Why does Jared Polis, whether he is or is not the first openly gay congressman elected, make news? Why did the appointment of Condoleezza Rice or Colin Powell make news? Why was this going to be a historic election either way it went because of involvement of Sarah Palin and Barack Obama?

If the United States is as equal as we want to say it is, then why is any of this a big deal at all?

It’s a big deal because as a nation we are more polarized than we would like to believe we are. Race does matter. Should it. No. It shouldn't. But sitting around a library table in some university during a sociology class is not going to change that.

People need proof. They need to see that yes, an African American, a Muslim American, a Chinese American, a woman, a homosexual, a Christian, or a white man can all do the same job and be just as proficient at it.

That's why, to me, it feels like America is moving in a direction towards inclusion of the diversity that this country is, not only by electing Obama, but by the sheer amount of diversity, which was represented in this years election. It is becoming public knowledge that regardless of sex, race, color, creed, or religion, we are all capable beings living in this country. It is no longer a stat in the farmer’s almanac, or a story on page 4 when a person of a different race, creed or color makes it to a position of power. Everyone can see it. Now, how they interpret it... well that's up to them.

For what it's worth...



 
kurohyou Posted: Fri Nov 7 16:36:42 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  ifihadahif said:
>So skin color is an issue for you ?

No. Diversity and inclusion is an issue for me. Coming together as a nation and as a people (human) regardless of our background or heritage is an issue for me.

>Our government has been moving in this direction for a long time. Both Dubya's and Clinton's administrations were inclusive of minorities. Although I must admit that it seems that if a minority politician is conservative, they don't seem to count. Colin Powell was labeled an Uncle Tom until he endorsed Obama and all of a sudden he was a big hero. Condi Rice was labeled a stupid incompetent.

I have always had very high regard for Colin Powell ever since I heard the man speak. He is very articulate and I just think he's a truly amazing man. and Condi Rice too is an amazing individual and I thought that before Powell endorsed Obama.

I think its a little to easy to play the race card when it comes to why Colin Powell endorsed Obama. From what I saw of the interview, Powell outlined his reasons pretty clearly, and I don't think any of them had to do with race. Though I did not see the entire interview.

See my response to Christophe for more comments. No need to duplicate.

>Then he shouldn't made those promised if they are logistically impossible.
>Not a good way to start.

The world has changed since the day he started this campaign, just as it has changed since I started writing this response.

To assume that the promises of tomorrow will be able to hold up 100% in an ever changing world is to set one’s self up for disappointment. I am optimistic that he will be able to achieve most of what he says he will, but I have no expectations of him achieving everything he said because that is unrealistic, and it would have been an unrealistic expectation of Mr. McCain as well.

>We can also make it worse, a lot worse.

Hmmm… You’re right. We should end this experiement in democracy and become a dictatorship. Perhaps you can be in charge to protect us confounded idealists from ourselves…

Sorry if that was a harsh reaction but that comment just really rubbed me the wrong way.


>The man got 65 million votes, that cannot be denied, but from where I stand it looks like a cult of personality. Giving people hope and belief are nice, but that doesn't feed us or find work for us.

No. But as I said before it can motivate them into action, and through that action, it can help to feed or find work for people.

>As a white conservative, I certainly don't feel included in his dream.

Go to one of his campaign headquarters and ask what you can do? Every opinion is needed in America. Everyone is valuable. I’m glad the Dems didn’t get their magic 60 because to me that is unbalanced, even though things are pretty unbalanced right now. But see what you can do. There is a place for you in this dream as there is a place for all of us because we’re all American.

>BTW I thought Barney Frank was the first openly gay member of congress.

I have a friend of mine filming a documentary on Polis who said Polis was to be the first openly gay man elected to congress. Wikipedia says the same thing, and I’m afraid I don’t know who Barney Frank is. Either way it was pretty interesting to see Polis make his acceptance speech and thank his partner and have him on stage with him at the time.


For what it's worth...


 
FN Posted: Fri Nov 7 20:04:54 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:
>Every opinion is needed in America. Everyone is valuable.

What would make you believe that?


 
ifihadahif Posted: Fri Nov 7 22:02:27 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  kurohyou said:

>>We can also make it worse, a lot worse.
>
>Hmmm… You’re right. We should end this experiement in democracy and become a dictatorship. Perhaps you can be in charge to protect us confounded idealists from ourselves…
>
That was a reference to the article by John Stossel where he says that politicians have very little ability to make things better for most people but they have great capacity to make things worse.

>Sorry if that was a harsh reaction but that comment just really rubbed me the wrong way.
>
No problem, I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, though I am very good at being a smart ass when it suits me.

>
>>As a white conservative, I certainly don't feel included in his dream.
>
>Go to one of his campaign headquarters and ask what you can do? Every opinion is needed in America. Everyone is valuable. I’m glad the Dems didn’t get their magic 60 because to me that is unbalanced, even though things are pretty unbalanced right now. But see what you can do. There is a place for you in this dream as there is a place for all of us because we’re all American.
>
I believe that you believe that, but I don't count on it from Obama's administration. I think it will be more partisan than ever in Washington in the coming four years. The chief of staff he just appointed is one of the most polarizing politicians in congress.

>>BTW I thought Barney Frank was the first openly gay member of congress.
>
>I have a friend of mine filming a documentary on Polis who said Polis was to be the first openly gay man elected to congress. Wikipedia says the same thing, and I’m afraid I don’t know who Barney Frank is. Either way it was pretty interesting to see Polis make his acceptance speech and thank his partner and have him on stage with him at the time.
>
Hard to believe you don't know who Barney Frank is. He chairs the House Financial Services Committee.
He's one of the chief architects of the current financial mess we have along with Chris Dodd who is chairman of the Senate Banking Committee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Frank
>
>
>For what it's worth...


 
addi Posted: Wed Nov 12 06:29:04 2008 Post | Quote in Reply  
  Was out of town while the last posts were made.. After reading all of them I think the only appropriate response is...

http://www.236.com/video/2008/get_your_war_on_new_world_orde_10121.php


 



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